Is hunting socially unacceptable?

togster

Over on AH they have a thread called post your most controversial thought or something like that. Anyway got me thinking are you embarrased to say you hunt when you meet people or not? I sometimes don't like to say that i love fox-hunting because i may offend someone. Mods might be the wrong forum and if it is please delete! Just want to hear what the horsey crowd think!

fits

I'm the same as you Togster, I'm often wary about saying that I hunt (even though I havent foxhunted in 10 years). I think theres a type of mystery surrounding hunting, and non-hunters for the most part, do not understand what its about. Non-hunters seem to have images that we tear about the countryside like crazed bloodthirsty lunatics with our faces smeared in fox's blood, when the reality is so so different.

As for it being socially unacceptable, it depends on the social context innit?

Togster, I edited your thread title for spelling.

Right - I'm gonna be out and honest here. I hunt and shoot so you can infer that I support hunting.

However, I also moderate this forum so I am not going to partake in the debate. I have no problem with this discussion going ahead as long as both sides keep it civil, argue properly (ie no you're wrong, I'm right) and can back up things that they say.

If anyone from either side of the debate deviates from this - you get an early Christmas break.

!!THIS MESSAGE COUNTS AS THE FINAL WARNING!!

If anyone has a problem, PM me, fits or Ruggie. Or take it to feedback.

togster

Wow OK. Just wanted to see if people have problems saying it. Don't really want to spark a debate into the wrongs and rights of it. For me i have got some seriously bad responses to it! One girl asked me what i did at the weekends i said i hunt. We were in a bar and she started screaming at me. I could have crawled into a hole. :DI have been reluctant to say it lately but i feel that i am not doing anything illegal and i shouldn't have to be apologetic.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

you shouldn't be apologetic, if anyone starts giving you crap for it just point to their leather belt, shoes, the ham sandwhich they are scoffing down between bouts of screaming in your face.

these people are hippies, who don't really know what they're angry about. Just show them up for the hypocrites they are, and then ignore them.

if they happen to be vegetarian though, then you can have a spirited debate/screaming match because you're just not going to be able to agree at all

fits

togster wrote: »

For me i have got some seriously bad responses to it! One girl asked me what i did at the weekends i said i hunt. We were in a bar and she started screaming at me. I could have crawled into a hole. .

:eek: I would have too.

if they happen to be vegetarian though, then you can have a spirited debate/screaming match because you're just not going to be able to agree at all

Well really, theres just no point getting into the discussion then. Its just a whole different value system.

I'm a little involved in greyhound/dog welfare, and try to eat free range, local, organic meat where possible. Some might think thats all a contradiction, but it isnt for me.

togster

Mordeth wrote: »

you shouldn't be apologetic, if anyone starts giving you crap for it just point to their leather belt, shoes, the ham sandwhich they are scoffing down between bouts of screaming in your face.

these people are hippies, who don't really know what they're angry about. Just show them up for the hypocrites they are, and then ignore them.

if they happen to be vegetarian though, then you can have a spirited debate/screaming match because you're just not going to be able to agree at all

Yeah your right. Another example of pc'ness gone too far i guess.

togster

togster wrote: »

Wow OK. Just wanted to see if people have problems saying it. Don't really want to spark a debate into the wrongs and rights of it. For me i have got some seriously bad responses to it! One girl asked me what i did at the weekends i said i hunt. We were in a bar and she started screaming at me. I could have crawled into a hole. :DI have been reluctant to say it lately but i feel that i am not doing anything illegal and i shouldn't have to be apologetic.

Debate is good - but not when it degrades into slagging and a flamefest.

Neither myself nor Fits have any problems with this being discussed, we just don't want it turning into a polarised screaming match.

ShowAndGo

You should have no reason to be embarrassed and if someone picks you up on it, it is the perfect opportunity to educate them all about it.

If people want fox hunting or hunting in general to prosper into the future they have to be more proactive in promoting their sport.

togster

fits wrote: »

:
I'm a little involved in greyhound/dog welfare, and try to eat free range, local, organic meat where possible. Some might think thats all a contradiction, but it isnt for me.

Yes exactly because its your own personal value system. I don't like people being told to behave a certain way because they think they should.

As for hunting in general. The image most people have is in a way flawed. But not to skirt around the issue. We do kill foxes. I have seen hounds kill foxes. Everytime the death was almost instantaneous. I love hunting. Everything about it, the sound of the horn, the fog, the chase and the kill. Because without the latter it is pointless. we need to stop apologising for the kill. It makes it harder to defend the hunt. Because people will say why not drag instead.

TheB

.. You saw that then...

I'm not ashamed or afraid to say I hunt.. In the UK if anyone complains that I hunt I point out its banned.. so what are they moaning about and here I haven't come across many that don't hunt yet when the topic has come up(I live in the country and my yard is hunting obsessed )..

I have had a few bad experiences.. pre-ban in the UK after one of the CA marches 2 friends and I in a crowded pub (full of marchers & non-marchers) were verbally and physically attacked (drinks chucked over us/one friend knocked over) after we were asked if & why we attended the march (we were polite in our brief reply btw) by 3 blokes and 2 girls..

Have also been attacked on G while out hunting by a balaclava'd anti - he hit my horse with a large piece of 2x4" right behind his knees as we stood waiting in a gateway - bringing G down on his knees on tarmac.. miraculously he only had surface scratches..

So I am not afraid to say I hunt.. and not at all embarressed but I would not deliberately bring up the subject in company that I might consider "wrong".. i.e those who cannot be civil about their opinions or are unwilling to discuss but would rather argue and will not or cannot see others have a right to a point of view.. if it comes up when I would rather it didn't I don't deny hunting but I avoid getting into a "discussion" about it..

The only direct arguement I have EVER had about hunting was with a neanderthal "new" farmer (read: no farming experience or interest in animals really - just into "making a killing - geddit - from feeding the council types" - his words not mine) who was reading me chapter and verse about the "poor" foxes and snobbish types that hunt.

I pointed out he kept thousands of battery chickens and turkeys, he had also boasted about his new pig unit that could house x amount of pigs in x amount of space - suffice to say they would not be ranging - free or otherwise... and that I found intensive farming much more unpleasant compared to hunting.. that conversation ended badly..

Bx

Mr. Presentable

I have no problem with hunting so long as it is for food, clothing, to control vermin etc.

I do, however, have a problem with hunting when it is for "sport".

If you are talking about chasing a fox with hounds and on horseback then we have a problem. That is not acceptable hunting - you are not going to eat it, clothe yourself with it, and as far as it being vermin goes, there is a more acceptable way of controlling the fox - a farmer with lamp and gun. No unnecessary suffering for the animal there.

So, it depends on what you mean by hunting whether it is socially acceptable or not. But if I understand the context of the post I would have to say not acceptable.

togster

Yeah B i saw it;)

I was also "attacked" on a horse by a disgruntled farmer. He threw a stick at me and hit be under me eye. But he was't anti for cruelty reasons. We were "black and tans". All of us were Irish but he ignored that fact!:rolleyes:

INTERMISSION...

I would like to point out, now that we have two sides, that:

a) people are entitled to have opinions
b) other people do not have to agree with their opions

If we all recognise that, that great.

First person (and all subsequent people) to forget this get banned.

Regular service resumes...

togster

nipplenuts wrote: »

I have no problem with hunting so long as it is for food, clothing, to control vermin etc.

I do, however, have a problem with hunting when it is for "sport".

If you are talking about chasing a fox with hounds and on horseback then we have a problem. That is not acceptable hunting - you are not going to eat it, clothe yourself with it, and as far as it being vermin goes, there is a more acceptable way of controlling the fox - a farmer with lamp and gun. No unnecessary suffering for the animal there.

So, it depends on what you mean by hunting whether it is socially acceptable or not. But if I understand the context of the post I would have to say not acceptable.

Good to have a different point of view.:) My OP was on the subject of mounted hunting. Pursuit and kill.

Mr. Presentable

togster wrote: »

Yeah B i saw it;)

I was also "attacked" on a horse by a disgruntled farmer. He threw a stick at me and hit be under me eye.

This kind of thing is unacceptable also.

Mr. Presentable

togster wrote: »

Good to have a different point of view.:) My OP was on the subject of mounted hunting. Pursuit and kill.

Of what? and for what purpose?

togster

I appreciate the fact that people are opposed to hunting. I do have a problem when people try and convince you in real life that you are a monster etc. etc. I never start that debate but at the samr time i don't fell i should have to hide my hobbies in order to prevent such "lectures".

fits

togster wrote: »

I was also "attacked" on a horse by a disgruntled farmer. He threw a stick at me and hit be under me eye. But he was't anti for cruelty reasons. We were "black and tans". All of us were Irish but he ignored that fact!:rolleyes:

I think this varies from hunting territory to territory. A colleague of mine is from a farm, and his family all detest the local hunt. They see them all as arrogant landed gentry snobs. This pack would hunt neighbouring territory to my own, where I've never encountered such an attitude. A lot depends on the local history, and the efforts of the hunt to have good relations with farmers and local people.

togster

nipplenuts wrote: »

Of what? and for what purpose?

Foxes. And yes for "sport" as you put it. By the way "sport" is subjective. For me its more than that. Its a way of life. For others it is just a sport.

togster

fits wrote: »

I think this varies from hunting territory to territory. A colleague of mine is from a farm, and his family all detest the local hunt. They see them all as arrogant landed gentry snobs. This pack would hunt neighbouring territory to my own, where I've never encountered such an attitude. A lot depends on the local history, and the efforts of the hunt to have good relations with farmers and local people.

+1 And also a bad huntsman or hunt rules sometimes end up in land being destroyed and fences also

Mr. Presentable

togster wrote: »

Foxes. And yes for "sport" as you put it. By the way "sport" is subjective. For me its more than that. Its a way of life. For others it is just a sport.

I do not contend your right to you "way of life" etc, or judge you for what you do, but, how would you feel if eight motorcyclists with airhorns and chainsaws pursued one of your beagles cross country until it was exhausted, and then tore it to bits?

The "way of life" argument cuts no ice with me: slavery was once a "way of life".

togster, I appreciate your patience and responses, so out of respect I am going to refrain from making any more contrary posts, as this is your forum and I am but a guest.

togster

nipplenuts wrote: »

I do not contend your right to you "way of life" etc, or judge you for what you do, but, how would you feel if eight motorcyclists with airhorns and chainsaws pursued one of your beagles cross country until it was exhausted, and then tore it to bits?

The "way of life" argument cuts no ice with me: slavery was once a "way of life".

togster, I appreciate your patience and responses, so out of respect I am going to refrain from making any more contrary posts, as this is your forum and I am but a guest.

Its not my forum:) Its as much yours as it is mine. I appreciate your point of view. I guess some people just have different point of views.

Nipplenuts - mounted hunting is also a form of vermin control. Farmers will contact the local hunt and inform them of any foxes who are causing them problems. However a culture has also grown up around the act and modern day hunting is a mix of the two.

You are also more then welcome to air your views here, I just ask that you keep them civil, and that any opions expressed to you are also civil.

TheB

In a very non argumentative way..

nipplenuts wrote: »

I do not contend your right to you "way of life" etc, or judge you for what you do, but, how would you feel if eight motorcyclists with airhorns and chainsaws pursued one of your beagles cross country until it was exhausted, and then tore it to bits ?

I can see where the comparisons arise but this is a fairly typical (in its form - not word for word) comment from someone who maybe doesn't have 1st hand experience or more than media knowledge of hunting with hounds..

Hunting is totally disimilar to that comparision - there are rules that MUST be followed and these rules are mostly in respect for the quarry and the hounds .. hunting is not (although I understand that to the uninitiated eye it could be construed as..) a random mad bloodthirsty dash as described above..

The "way of life" argument cuts no ice with me: slavery was once a "way of life".

I personally agree with this statement.. in that fox hunting, as shooting, fishing etc are part of country life.. and living in the country is a way of life.. (it'd be hard to fly fish/shoot pheasant/hunt fox/hare or drag in the city) not that one living in the country MUST subscibe to all of the above but they should be able to be accepted as part of country life & living..

I find the slavery arguement a little trying.. they were humans..who were degraded and made to feel worth nothing.. we are talking about an animal here..a fox.. that 99% people perceive as vermin.. who does not see the world about it as a human would.. or feel human feelings..

Chasing and being chased is simply "How It Is"... they don't know we're doing it for sport .. they don't care.. survival of the fittest is in that animals mind (probably) and thats it..

I am sensitive to animals and adore my own.. and downright soft most of the time.. but they are still animals.. I'm not into anthromorphication..

Bx

fits

I think this is better argued than I could ever put it myself.

The fox in Ireland, as in Britain, fits into an entirely artificial wildlife hierarchy. It is the highest mammal in the food chain, the two species which would threaten its hegemony, the wolf and the bear, having been eliminated. It needs to be controlled, yet preserved. This is an entirely contrived relationship.

Maybe, as the RSPCA declares, a fox is disembowelled before it dies. Maybe it is not. Maybe dogs quickly break its neck - pack-killers prefer not to have a prey which can damage them while they eat. But one thing is fairly certain: a fox which dies what the RSPCA regards as a natural death is one that dies by starvation, caused by loss of teeth or slowness through age or disease. Take your pick. You have two choices, and only two, and neither includes being ministered to in a hospital bed with intravenous drugs while nuns chant melodiously beside you as your fingers flutter on the sheets.

Lingering death

You can die in a moment or two, being attacked by dogs, and probably going into shock without noticing very much; or you can die a slow, lingering death in a ditch, bluebottles laying their eggs in your eyes and rats nibbling at you. Which would you choose?

To clarify your thoughts, let me quote a recent account by a woman who was attacked by a hyena. "The mind, I found, is strange. It shut off during the attack while my body continued to act, without thought or even sight. I don't remember him sinking his teeth into my arm, though I heard a little grating noise as his teeth chewed into the bone. Everything was black and slow and exploding in my stomach. Vision returned gradually . . . I saw at a remove the hyena inside my right arm, and my other arm banging him on the head. My body, in the absence of a mind, had decided that this was the best thing to do . . . My mind was so calm and remote that I frightened myself."

Worse follows. The point is that she felt no pain, even as the hyena began to eat her, even though she was screaming throughout. Hyenas are wretchedly slow killers. Even when, part of the arm consumed, it started to eat her leg, she felt no pain. None. Is it not possible that her experience is no different from the sensations of other prey-victims, such as foxes? So think again and choose: the bluebottles, the cold, the rooks and the rats, or the pack of dogs: which is to be?

Joy of the hunt

I do not say that hunts exist to put foxes to death humanely. They exist for the joy of the hunt, which is great whether or not a fox is caught; as is the joy of rough-shooting dependent not so much on the bag but on the thrill of wading through scrub on a winter's morning with a couple of working dogs flushing the cabbage field or scouring through babbling water-courses.

The hunting lobby did itself a terrible disservice with its claims that it keeps the fox population down. It doesn't. If a fox is young, it will outrun and out-wile any hunt. Only the halt and lame and ill fall prey to hunts. Shooting and baiting are still necessary to control foxes; uncontrolled, they will exterminate the pheasant (another of man's additions to the Irish countryside). Kevin Myers

*Page*

removed

*sorry*

polopunk

I would support hunting - but I am unable to mention that I do to friends in college, or people who are not from the country.

I do remember being lectured to that hunting is cruel from a person whoose family ran a mink farm!

I also attended a meeting put on the by the HAI in Navan where some of the antics of the antis were quite scary, in a global sportingwise sense rather then on a 'hunt by hunt' basis.

My two cents... take them as you will

doctor evil

I support hunting, haven`t been yet but would like to get out this year.

Rhiannon14

I have no issues with hunting as long as it's not for sport. Having lived in Vermont for upwards of 8 years I can see that it is generally more accepted than is the norm in Ireland. I know plenty of families that live all winter on venison. As long as the animal is respected and killed professionally, then grand.

Borderfox

I grew up in the city and moved out to the countryside and I have no problems with anybody hunting so long as they follow the landowners wishes..I would agree with the local history comment too, some hunts are very accomodating whereas some are not. I have a horse too but I dont hunt myself but it does colour my perception on the subject although I hate to see horses badly treated and from what I have seen a hunt isnt the horses best friend and a few times I have wanted to give riders the same treatment they are meeting out to their rides!!

fits

Rhiannon14 wrote: »

I have no issues with hunting as long as it's not for sport. Having lived in Vermont for upwards of 8 years I can see that it is generally more accepted than is the norm in Ireland. I know plenty of families that live all winter on venison. As long as the animal is respected and killed professionally, then grand.

But most modern day hunting is 'for sport' as you put it. Certain kinds have alternate motives also, but the type of hunting we are discussing here, really does have sport as its primary motive. This however, does not mean that the animal isnt respected. Sportsmanship is a large part of it.

Borderfox wrote: »

.....although I hate to see horses badly treated and from what I have seen a hunt isnt the horses best friend and a few times I have wanted to give riders the same treatment they are meeting out to their rides!!

Can you give any examples? Are you talking about cantering on roads? riding unfit horses? Jumping wire?

I agree to a certain extent, but I think that it is comparable or even better than other equestrian sports. Theres often been times when I've really felt very angry at certain individuals, and that would mostly occur in the show ring.

Borderfox

Galloping on the road would be the least of the horses troubles more often than not they are left in horseboxes while the owners laugh it up in the pub....:(

fits

Borderfox wrote: »

Galloping on the road would be the least of the horses troubles more often than not they are left in horseboxes while the owners laugh it up in the pub....:(

Yes I hate that too. I think my local hunt discouraged this practice several years ago as it doesnt seem to happen anymore (drink driving laws helped too I'm sure). Its a terrible (and dangerous) way to repay a horse after a hard days work.

polopunk

I haven't hunted in a couple of years, but have followed a few on foot recently enough (well, by car!)

Has anyone noticed any recent changes due to people moving out of cities and town and into the country more? I was at a hunt recently enough where the hunters were jeered as they passed a housing estate..

togster

polopunk wrote: »

I haven't hunted in a couple of years, but have followed a few on foot recently enough (well, by car!)

Has anyone noticed any recent changes due to people moving out of cities and town and into the country more? I was at a hunt recently enough where the hunters were jeered as they passed a housing estate..

I haven't noticed people from cities and towns but when the ban came into effect in Britain alot of people from the UK came to our local hunt. I found them very astute horse-people and very nice people. They have IMO a greater since of tradition when it comes to hunting. One guy i met hunted up front with the staff and he was one of the best riders i had seen anywhere. Not only in his style but also in the way he preserved his horses energy throughout the day and gave him breaks. Hunting will always have a sniff of pompus about it, because of its roots and the attire of participants.

Clip-Clop

From recent experience I mentioned in passing that I was out 'with the horses' when explaining an inability to attend recent work do. Two colleagues pressed and told them in would be hunting. At this point full scale war broke out- screaming match (on their part), thrust of whih was usual lazy descriptions of snobbishness. Tried to point out that our yard + kennels is dependent on hunting liveries, and that if we want to have horses in the fabric of Irish life for much longer then hunting is a critical commercial pillar, "Rather have more foxes and no horses" was the response. Seemed to me it was a clash of clutures with both sides talking past eachother. Was made to feel really bad in work about it though, snide references to my non-existent country pile (despite our hunt genuinely being drawn from across the social spectrum, including an awful lot of people who make huge sacrifices for their horses), photo-shopping pictures of hunters, foxes etc.

Tried to argue that there are strict rules- i.e. no dig-outs, pregnant vixens not pursued, its very selective, fox has a very good chance of escape, the alternatives (poison going through the food chain, lamping- i've seen the aftermath of lamping- dogs, foxes, otters, mink, owls, chickens, deer and everything in between shot, farmers see eyes and shoot first/identify later)- but was just met with "its cruel"-

Cruelty is keeping pigs and chickens in small cages. Cruelty is laying poison and inflicting tortured deaths on animals. Cruelty is tying an animal up so that it can't move around. Cruelty is neglect and maltreatment of domestic cats and dogs. Cruelty is not pursuing a animal that lives free, is regarded as a pest by those whom it affects, according to a strict set of rules, where the fox has a better than even chance of getting away. The chance of being hunted is simply an occupational hazard, rejigging the balance for the unnatural absence of predators. There is absolutely no hypocrisy in being an animal lover and a hunter.

TheB

Borderfox wrote: »

Galloping on the road would be the least of the horses troubles more often than not they are left in horseboxes while the owners laugh it up in the pub....:(

We don't stay for a drink for long but more often than not we untack, box up and nip in for a drink as to go in, accept the hospitality and thank the hosts of the meet (especially at a lawn meet) is only polite.. but horses are washed off, watered, with bandages/travelling gear and suitable rugs on and have haylage to munch on.. they are quite happy.. we rarely stay more than 1 drink though.. never more than 30mins.. then home.. so long as the horses are warm and comfortable then I don't see too much of a problem..

I personally do canter slowly on the roads (on the verges if any)if G is very over excited and is highstepping or trying for extended trot out hunting.. as controlled slow cantering on hard surfaces (as per a study done in Uni) is actually less concussive to the horses' legs than a battering out of control trot.. we call it a "Butcher Boy" trot in the UK.. a simple way to gauge this is to look at the amount and quality of sparks thrown up from a shod butcher boy trot compared to a slowly cantering horse..(at the same speed as the trotting horse) ..

Our horses are suitably fit for this though with plenty of long slow fittening done..

what I think is cruel in the hunting field is seeing blatantly unfit horses being smacked as they run out of energy and simply can't do the job.. awful.. and people who treat their horses like machines.. not giving them a breather.. riding unsympathetically and not watching the ground conditions/take off/lands for the best place for their horses.. even fit I would never gallop on plough or heavy going, never jump an unsafe fence just because..

Bx

TheB

Clip-Clop wrote: »

Was made to feel really bad in work about it though, snide references to my non-existent country pile (despite our hunt genuinely being drawn from across the social spectrum, including an awful lot of people who make huge sacrifices for their horses), photo-shopping pictures of hunters, foxes etc.

:eek::mad:

Tried to argue that there are strict rules- i.e. no dig-outs, pregnant vixens not pursued, its very selective, fox has a very good chance of escape, the alternatives (poison going through the food chain, lamping- i've seen the aftermath of lamping- dogs, foxes, otters, mink, owls, chickens, deer and everything in between shot, farmers see eyes and shoot first/identify later)- but was just met with "its cruel"-

Anti hunting bods just don't seem to hear this reasoning when it is explained to them.

Cruelty is keeping pigs and chickens in small cages. Cruelty is laying poison and inflicting tortured deaths on animals. Cruelty is tying an animal up so that it can't move around. Cruelty is neglect and maltreatment of domestic cats and dogs. Cruelty is not pursuing a animal that lives free, is regarded as a pest by those whom it affects, according to a strict set of rules, where the fox has a better than even chance of getting away. The chance of being hunted is simply an occupational hazard, rejigging the balance for the unnatural absence of predators. There is absolutely no hypocrisy in being an animal lover and a hunter.

Absolutely right.. especially the last sentence..


Fits - very good quote.. and very well said by whomever said it *applauds*

Bx

fits

TheB wrote: »

:

Fits - very good quote.. and very well said by whomever said it *applauds*

Bx

Everyone's favourite journalist;), Kevin Myers from the Irish Times

togster

Hi B, you might no the answer to this. What are the current rules on hunting in the UK? I heard it was ok to flush a fox from cover, but not give chase. The fox may only be dispatched by gun or by a bird of prey?

Trojan911

togster wrote: »

Anyway got me thinking are you embarrased to say you hunt when you meet people or not? I sometimes don't like to say that i love fox-hunting because i may offend someone. Just want to hear what the horsey crowd think!

Interesting thread...


No problem telling people that I hunt when asked. I don't hunt on horseback as I not a competent rider, but I'm working on that.

I hunt foxes with shotgun & dogs normally on a Sunday & lamp foxes by night using a high powered rifle. This is done on sheep farmers land to help with the lambing season.

Rabbits, crows, grey crows, magpies, mink & pigeons I shoot for crop farmers and any farmers who rear fowl & ocasionaly shoot feral cats who take fowl.

No embarrassment or shame here.

TheB

togster wrote: »

Hi B, you might no the answer to this. What are the current rules on hunting in the UK? I heard it was ok to flush a fox from cover, but not give chase. The fox may only be dispatched by gun or by a bird of prey?

Well.. this is an awkward topic.. very convoluted .. typical of the UK goverment really.. :rolleyes:

You can flush foxes with "dogs" .. and dispatch them by gun or bird of prey.. but it's not that simple.. there are all kinds of rules re how many "dogs", how they flush and how Charlie is broken up.. but in simplistic forms ..yes...leading to many hunts carrying a bird of prey (I have seen the birds totally non-plussed sitting on the handlers hand while horse gallops & jumps beneath.. is an amazing site.. you feel like you are back in the days of the Cavaliers & Roundheads!)

I'll explain best I can..

Flushing with Dogs/Guns
You can flush a fox to be shot with only 2 dogs.. 3+ is illegal...
In Scotland you can legally flush with a "pack" ...(to protect the game bird industry apparently)

Flushing can ONLY for the purpose of preventing or reducing "serious damage that the animal being flushed would cause" .. i.e not for sport or entertainment..

You have to "Take reasonable steps" to ensure the flushed animal is shot etc asap.. any longer than neccesary and you can be charged with illegal hunting.. (how long "any longer" can be called is very vague - hence antis out with video cameras everywhere..)

The dogs/hounds used have to be kept under strict control to prevent a chase scenario and/or prevent the fox from being dispatched asap.. any interference can be termed illegal hunting..

:rolleyes:

Flushing to a Bird of Prey

Now as I understand it you can use a pack to flush to a bird (bonkers - I know)..

The above rules re dispatch of the fox apply.. the bird basically has to be able to get at and kill the fox asap with no "hunt" or interference by hounds.. as that would be illegal hunting..

It's all mad.. and then there is the added confusion over rioting hounds. If hounds accidentally riot onto a line and cannot be stopped before rolling the pilot - who is at fault there ? Huntsman/Hunt staff, hounds or what.. is all totally mad..

It makes me even angrier as police time and manpower is being used to enforce this craziness when "proper" crimes are being committed right, left & centre due to not enough police presence! The police are all sitting about in 4WD's in country lanes looking thoroughly bored instead :mad: ..

Bx

PS - The police aren't usually interested in the legality of the hunt.. they are there to prevent trespass, aggressive acts and defuse any "heated moments" ..usually by Anti's told to leave land as they are trespassing.
Meh.. tis all wrong..

Siogfinsceal

I hunt but I agree sometimes people have severe reactions to you saying it. My dad shoots - rabbits, ducks, pheasants. I prefer drag hunting to fox hunting as sometimes fox hunting can be a bit boring if its a quiet day or a bit lethal (im not the bravest at jumping mahoosive gaps of mud between fields!). Deer hunting is not something I would do myself but I respect that others believe it is okay.

People do pull me up on it sometimes as I am an animal lover but as I explain to them there is a reason farmers want foxes hunted off - ever seen sheep torn apart by foxes? I have not a pretty sight. besides been fox hunting a few times, never seen a fox caught. My friend hunts constantly and says its not that often it happens.

I did have a fight with a total moron one day who threw a strop that I go fox hunting but don't agree to wearing fur. My belief is that if you kill an animal and eat it its fine to use its fur. Foxes similaraily are hunted for a reason. I wear leather as the cow was eaten and the leather is a by product. i dont however agree to breeding animals in cramped cages for the sole purpose of killing them to using their fur. At the end of the day I can believe and agree with whatever I want. i respect the beliefs of others and expect them to respect mine. sadly that doesnt always happen.

togster

wow it sounds very complicated To me it seems very vague.... So do the hunts still hunt with more than 1 couple? Having whipped in with hounds it is very hard to take hounds of a line once they are on a scent. So that also seems difficult to manage. Does a bird of prey dispatch a fox more efficiently than a pack of hounds? I would doubt it.

Clip-Clop

Re the Situation in England- as Togster points out the Hunting Act is a mess- flushing to a bird of prey is totally mad- just as stressful, and very hard to fathom why they allowed it as an exception if idea was to save foxes (as oppossed to have a dig at horse-owners). From what i've heard most hunts who have a bird (vale of the white horse) carry it to keep the anti's from their litigation. Its simply not possible to hunt with a bird of prey. They do only 'flush' with a couple, but the rest of the pack are generally not too far away and when a scent goes up, whether from the couple or the rest, they riot after it. Anyone who hunts knows that it is not possible to control them once they are off.

It is a total mess and most hunts, as far as I understand are continuing as normal, given that it is very hard for anyone to accurately tell what is going on in a melee of hounds, horses, foots followers, and unfortunately in England, ridiclous self-styled 'sabs'- Huntsman Tony White was convicted but was aquitted on appeal by the High Court on the ground that the Act was too confusing to follow, and even if it was clear it would be almost impossible to prove that a hunt was using more than a couple (rather than the 'exercising hounds') to flush. It would have required some brazenly deliberate flaunting to successfully ground the prosecution. Although some have gone to drag, for those that have continued its as you were

TheB

togster wrote: »

wow it sounds very complicated

it is.. and that was just the basics... :rolleyes:

To me it seems very vague....

It is.. probably for a reason...

So do the hunts still hunt with more than 1 couple?

Yup.. they either hunt drag lines all day - or a few hunt lines with a full number and just using 1 couple to flush where required..

<snip>

Does a bird of prey dispatch a fox more efficiently than a pack of hounds?

You've got it in one .. what bird of prey (indigenous to the UK) do you know that can account for a fox ? loopholes.. loopholes.. :rolleyes: ..there is a bit of a conspiracy theory to all this if you read (correctly) between the lines.. but it is not really OT and ideal for discussion on a public forum..

togster

TheB wrote: »

it is.. and that was just the basics... :rolleyes:





It is.. probably for a reason...



Yup.. they either hunt drag lines all day - or a few hunt lines with a full number and just using 1 couple to flush where required..

<snip>


You've got it in one .. what bird of prey (indigenous to the UK) do you know that can account for a fox ? loopholes.. loopholes.. :rolleyes: ..there is a bit of a conspiracy theory to all this if you read (correctly) between the lines.. but it is not really OT and ideal for discussion on a public forum..

Appeasing both sides to an extent i guess:rolleyes:

Some foxes i have seen are close to the size of a hound and you would need a falcon on steroids to take him down. That always made me laugh. This is starting to go way of topic but its just so intersting!!

meathstevie

And what sort of bird of prey would you use to hunt foxes ? A domesticated condor ?

Personally I wouldn't be a great fan of horseback hunting but I'm well into shotgun and rifle hunting. As for someone taking part in a mounted hunt, it definitly doesn't rock my boat but I wouldn't have any fundamental problem with it as long as it's done respectfully.

BryanL

i'm happy to mention that i hunt shoot and fish to anyone if the subject comes up. most people are amazed to meet a real life "hunter" thats as normal and friendly as them. the more we show the normality of ourselves and hunting the better.
i've mentioned these things before but, the first thing Danial O'Connel did on release from prison was go hunting in Kerry with his pack of beagles, on foot and he was in his 70's
the oldest al-fresco painting in Ireland(14th century) is of a stag hunting scene
up until the 1600's hound were one of the few things exported from Ireland and were famed.
the brehon laws had large sections devoted to hounds and their value.
the Irish harrier and Kerry Beagle are separate breeds and hunting on foot is by far the most popular form of Irish hunting.
hunting with hounds is the only form of control that is biased towards sick and old animals and certainly has it's role in healthy control alongside shooting.
have confidence in what you and we do.
Bryan

cavan shooter

I am proud that I hunt (shotgun and rifle) if someone asks me what I do for sport I tell them. If they go balistic, Look them straight in the eye shrug and answer "Hey, I'm a caveman". In fact to get them really going tell them that loin of fox is delicious then move off leaving them thinking about it.

As for it being a local tradition, unfortunately it is sometimes only seen as a throw back to colonial rule, and not an extravagent way of excercising horses:D (thats a joke) However how many times do you actually get a fox....:D

Best of luck