Mirrors in gyms

Macha

Does anyone know if there's a law in Ireland that gyms must have at least 1 mirror? TCD gym opened in April (9 months ago) and still no mirrors. I reckon I've hurt my back 3 times since I joined..In my previous gym this never happened.

I know I can ask staff to check my form but half the time they're no where to be found.

glimmerman54

How things
I don't know about any laws for mirrors in gyms lol and i cant say it comes under health and safety, but having an unattended gym is more than likely a breach of health and safety regulations or least it should be. I know that insurance policies for "fitness centers" are fairly big on health and safety. It doesn't sound like a good place if the trainer is absent a lot of the time, by the way where is this place? name and shame

Hanley

I fail to see how it's a gyms lack of mirrors causing you to hurt yourself...

kinesthetic awareness, get in touch with your body and how it feels in certain positions. If you're looking in mirrors all the time trying to suss it out then chances are you aren't training as hard as you could be. And of course twisting your neck while your exercising isn't a great idea...

I can do a lift, video it and know exacty what position my body was in at all times before I even watch the video back because I'm in touch enough to know what's going on.

It's a skill that might take some time to learn, but is great for confidence.

Macha

It isn't an issue of me not training as hard as I can be. I can only get to the gym twice a week these days. That isn't going to change for a long time. I'm not talking about looking the mirror all the time - don't exaggerate.

I just want to check my form - I like to change the exercises I do, & may not have done a particular exercise for a while.

So I can´t just depend on how it feels

xebec

taconnol wrote: »

So I can´t just depend on how it feels

So ask one of the guys who works there for advice, they're quite helpful in general.

Dr.Louis

xebec wrote: »

So ask one of the guys who works there for advice, they're quite helpful in general.

taconnol wrote: »

I know I can ask staff to check my form but half the time they're no where to be found.

hmm...

Edwardius

taconnol wrote: »

I know I can ask staff to check my form but half the time they're no where to be found.

They're almost always at the desk and are helpful, so just ask!

hardtrainer

It sounds like you're pushing yourself too hard and are not aware of your body's limitations. If you're straining yourself from doing something, you should really use a lighter weight and do a proper warm up set to get a feel for the motion and a feel for form.

The mirrors issue in TCD is annoying, but it is being sorted out.
I know what you mean about the staff, but they're trying to tackle that too. There should be a member of staff on the desk in the gym area at all times, but staff disappear off in every job...it happens. They'll sort that out in time too I'm sure.

You cannot blame your injuring yourself on the lack of mirrors or on no staff being their to watch your every move.

Macha

hardtrainer wrote: »

It sounds like you're pushing yourself too hard and are not aware of your body's limitations. If you're straining yourself from doing something, you should really use a lighter weight and do a proper warm up set to get a feel for the motion and a feel for form.

The mirrors issue in TCD is annoying, but it is being sorted out.
I know what you mean about the staff, but they're trying to tackle that too. There should be a member of staff on the desk in the gym area at all times, but staff disappear off in every job...it happens. They'll sort that out in time too I'm sure.

You cannot blame your injuring yourself on the lack of mirrors or on no staff being their to watch your every move.

What is with the exaggerations? I'm not asking the staff to watch my every move. I just want to make sure when I'm doing something like straight legged DLs that my back is in the right position - you don't have to go far wrong to get a tweak. I have no problem with the staff in TCD - I think they do a good job. And I definitely don't blame them for any crappy form on my part. Having worked in customer service jobs before I know 99% of problems are usually due to management higher up.

It's not that I'm not aware of my body's limitations- I've been going to the gym & lifting weights for over 5 years now. Injuries can happen to the best of people. Hmm...but you're right - I should probably start with a lighter weight. I'm used to going 3-4 times a week and now down to 2 times so maybe I should be using lighter weights...

Still - I want a mirror! (I swear it isn't out of vanity - or so I can shadowbox at myself as some unnamed people in UCD gym do! )

hardtrainer

taconnol,
I didn't mean to imply that you wanted the staff to watch you, I meant it more that they're not going to be watching you all the time so you cannot rely on them to point out poor form. I've seen, all too often, in TCD and other gyms around Dublin, staff walk past people doing things that are downright dangerous, without so much as a sideways glance.

I agree, injuries can happen to the best of us, but they are almost always self inflicted (careless lifting, without warmup and concentrating on weights and not on form) and they can be avoided. And I agree, the lack of mirrors in TCD is beyond a joke, but then so is the lack of a powercage in most commercial gyms in Dublin!!

For the stiff legged DLs, it's not that you can't lift heavy, but you need to do the lighter sets to get used to how your back feels when it's tight and straight, which you know you can do at a much lighter weight...then go to the heavy sets and as hanley said, you'll have better body awareness.

justsomebloke

have you asked them about getting a mirror in, of course they will obviously get the wrong impression when you ask this and will probably think that you are only wanting to check yourself out in the gym.

Also as no one was able to get back to you about the cytomax thing your best bet maybe to ask on the marathon/triathlon forum
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=972

actually scratch that www.irish-lifting.com have it (sure don't they have everything)

http://www.irish-lifting.com/product_info_supplement.php?cPath=2_23&products_id=12

Colm_OReilly

I think Hanley's spot on, kinesthetic awareness is the way to go. A mirror can only project a 2d image of what is a 3d object (you)

For an exercise that you use a mirror in front of you you'll mainly lean forward into it. From the side, well, you're turning your head and as such you're out of alignment.

Colm
-Argument largely plagiarised from Rip

g'em

Ah jeebus lads, kinesthetic awareness? Sure a n00b in the gym wouldn't know where his arse was in relation to his elbow at the best of times, let alone when he was trying to keep good form on a difficult lift. hardtrainer, Hanely and Colm are all advanced lifters - you practice good form through years of training, but can you all honestly say that you were so aware of your posture and positioning during a lift right from the beginning?? We all rely heavily on mirrors and other people to tell us how our form is when we start out, and in a gym like TCD where the n00bs and inexperienced lifters greatly outweight the people who actually have an iota of a clue what they're doing, the lack of mirrors is nothing short of a serious health hazard. There's people who seem to have no spatial awareness let alone kinesthetic awareness.

taconnol is by no means a n00b lifter but her need for the comfort of a back-up form check is completely warranted. I'm extremely in-tune with how my body performs when given a new task or new lift to do, but that doesn't mean I don't like to double check with mirrors from time to time. No-one's is saying you should rely on mirrors all the time, but to dismiss them completely is a little unrealistic.

As for the TCD gym staff - by and large they're a lovely bunch, and I'm pleased to see there are some relatively good quality PTs in there. For the first time since I can remember (and I've been in that gym going on 3 and a half years now) there's at least a couple of women in the weights area practically all the time.

But by God there's also some right numpties on the gym-staff payroll...

Mickk

I spent over 3 grand on mirrors and my gyms layout largely revolved around where the mirrors could go up. I think its extremely important for watching form.

Dragan

g'em wrote: »

But by God there's also some right numpties on the gym-staff payroll...

Numpties for the win!

For me, arguing against mirrors is the same as arguing for all noobs to start out on Sheiko. It makes no sense.

As someone who trains and who has trained others in a gym environment i can happily say that mirrors are a fantastic training tool.

justsomebloke

Mickk wrote: »

I spent over 3 grand on mirrors and my gyms layout largely revolved around where the mirrors could go up. I think its extremely important for watching form.

and for Dragan to pose and go "I look so hot right now"

g'em

jsb wrote: »

and for Dragan to pose and go "I look so hot right now"

have you been to the gym with him recently!??! All this new leanness is making him more unbearable than usual... I swear his checking himself out: lifting ratio must be going on 3:1 these days...

You know what you are D, a compliment whore!!!! "Check out these forearms ladies"

*swooooon*

Dragan

Look, when your sexy there is nothing you can do except go with it.

Dragan
- officially the best looking man in McDaids last night.

Colm_OReilly

g'em,

Nice points. I firmly believe that when people start exercising they should get with a decent trainer who'll watch for this and teach people that awareness. Unfortunately, we just don't get that in globogyms.

I also agree with you that there are a lot of people with no spatial/kinesthetic awareness at the start. But it's something I try to teach and incorporate from day one with my athletes.

Can I ask a question, being ignorant of TCD's gym? How many are doing compound, elemental lifts like squat, dl, shoulder press and how many are doing bicep curls, lateral raises, etc?

g'em

Colm_OReilly wrote: »

Nice points. I firmly believe that when people start exercising they should get with a decent trainer who'll watch for this and teach people that awareness. Unfortunately, we just don't get that in globogyms.

lol @ globogyms. But that's also a very, very idealistic way of looking at things and there's a lot of "ifs" involved: decent trainers are hard to come by (sorry any PTs reading this, but for many of you your resistance training education sucks) and even if you had one, teaching someone awareness of the physical mechanisms of lifting is harder than it sounds. Mirrors are a compromise - without the aid of a decent trainer, the trainee can self-monitor and also learn self-awareness.

Colm_OReilly wrote:

Can I ask a question, being ignorant of TCD's gym? How many are doing compound, elemental lifts like squat, dl, shoulder press and how many are doing bicep curls, lateral raises, etc?

Pot enough doing the former, goodness knows how many doing the latter. Put it this way - I can hog the power rack for an hour at peak times and it doesn't seem to bother anyone (at least, no-one approaches me to ask me can they work in or when I'll be finished). But there are definitely slow signs of improvement, and as those trainees who are starting to include more compound lifts into their programs they'll get more efficent and effective with their training. While there are (literally only) one or two staff who know their way around barbell, they aren't on duty all the time and can't provide necessary feedback. Re-enter the mirror compromise.

Hanley

Dragan wrote: »

For me, arguing against mirrors is the same as arguing for all noobs to start out on Sheiko. It makes no sense.

Starting on Sheiko makes perfect sense. Unless you're suggesting that spending a concentrated block of time learning how to squat, bench and deadlift while building up your volume tolerance for future training is a waste of time?

JayRoc

Hanley wrote: »

Starting on Sheiko makes perfect sense. Unless you're suggesting that spending a concentrated block of time learning how to squat, bench and deadlift while building up your volume tolerance for future training is a waste of time?

That is a bit of a bizarre thing to say, in fairness, man.
Even assuming a newbie was able to grasp the form of all the complex and demanding exercises involved in sheiko immediately,
and even assuming said newbie would be able to maintain perfect technique through every set without putting themselves at a risk of injury by letting their form slip,
the volume would still absolutely capper them and render the entire enterprise meaningless, in my opinion.

Dragan

Hanley wrote: »

Starting on Sheiko makes perfect sense. Unless you're suggesting that spending a concentrated block of time learning how to squat, bench and deadlift while building up your volume tolerance for future training is a waste of time?

*chuckles* I thought that might draw a few questions from people alright.

If you want to start a total newb to the gym, with no idea on form or even what their work loads will be yet on such a program then knock yourself out.

Can't say as i would recommend it to anyone.

Personally my first few sessions with anyone revolve around compound basics, sure, but also finding muscular imbalances, weaknesses from old or recurring injuries and ensuring ligament and tendon strength and flexibility are up to scratch before approaching a decent level of volume.

Don't get me wrong dude, i understand where you are coming from, but step outside of the Hercs and Pinnacles of this world, do some work in a gym where you are dealing with normal people with no history of training and you realise exactly where most people are starting from.....which is normally in terrible shape, with a minimum of one injury and all kinds of muscular imbalances they might not even realise they have.

To train anyone, your first few sessions are about finding limitations, problems and starting load.

It's also pretty important to train the person for THEIR goals, not the goals we think they should have, and the brass tax of it is that not that many people go to a personnal trainer for help moving an impressive amount of weight.

Sad but true.

Roper

I don't really like mirrors in gyms....


but damn do mirrors love me!

C'mon, someone...

Dragan

*high fives Roper*

I like!

Hanley

JayRoc wrote: »

That is a bit of a bizarre thing to say, in fairness, man.
Even assuming a newbie was able to grasp the form of all the complex and demanding exercises involved in sheiko immediately,
and even assuming said newbie would be able to maintain perfect technique through every set without putting themselves at a risk of injury by letting their form slip,
the volume would still absolutely capper them and render the entire enterprise meaningless, in my opinion.

The difference here tho is that when I say newb I'm saying someone with months training exp who already has a moderate idea of what is neccessary to perform the lifts but need further work to make their form better. I'm talking from personal exp and not not suggesting that sheiko is the answer to a 40 something house wifes with a imbalances everywheres problem. Since I don't make money outta trainnig people and only offer advice based on my own exp. I thought that would be fairly obvious. I was mistaken.

In lifting everyone seems to be just one program away from their next great gain, and as a result people disregard the importance of good form (which is probably where you'll make the biggest improvements quite quickly). Take myself for example, 1 week before the world champs I pulled a hard 3x3 with 180kg sumo with a belt, now no more than 5 or 6 weeks later I've pulled 185kg for multiple sets of 6 WITHOUT a belt. I haven't got THAT much stronger in those few weeks, but I've worked hard on the weakness in my form (namely keepin my hips down at the start of the pull and arching hard to keep my shoulders behind the bar).

You have to remember as well too that 80% for a beginner and 80% for someone at my level is totally different. Hell even 80%-90% for me is easy enough to do muiltiple times per week but as I become more advanced it will obviously become harder.

With beginners 80% to them isn't gonna kill their CNS or even their muscles. So presumably the risk factor of injury would be less high than with a more advanced person? Again beginners in the sense of someone who has an idea of what they're doing and that I know the lmiits they have. This would be from my personal experience and what I did before they started with sheiko.

JayRoc

Hanley wrote: »

already has a moderate idea of what is neccessary to perform the lifts but need further work to make their form better

Not taking a pop here dude but you really think a program like sheiko is the best way to work on your form?

Really, I think it comes down to the fact that your perception of the "average" beginner is probably a little off due to where you train and the cross-section of trainers you'd most often come in contact with.
It's something I'm always saying to people and I think Dragan might have mentioned it before here- because of the gyms we train in and the people we train with, we can forget what most people are like when they walk into a gym. The physical state of the man on the street, and how long they can take to get to grips with exercise, would probably suprise you- and I don't mean that in a bad way, like I said, it's just because of what you're used to.

BossArky

JayRoc wrote: »

Not taking a pop here dude but you really think a program like sheiko is the best way to work on your form?

Really, I think it comes down to the fact that your perception of the "average" beginner is probably a little off due to where you train and the cross-section of trainers you'd most often come in contact with.
It's something I'm always saying to people and I think Dragan might have mentioned it before here- because of the gyms we train in and the people we train with, we can forget what most people are like when they walk into a gym. The physical state of the man on the street, and how long they can take to get to grips with exercise, would probably suprise you- and I don't mean that in a bad way, like I said, it's just because of what you're used to.

+1.

I'll like if some of you guys could see the state of the people in my gym.

Dragan

It really is a very valid point. I could get any of the people here who have been lifting for around 3 months and put them in with any of the clients i have worked with over recent months and they will destroy them.

I am by no means a very strong individual in my mind and yet if i go into Westwood in Sandyford i will be far and away the strongest person in there.

The simple fact is that the "average man" is just that....incredibly average. I think that is why i love working with them so much, as there strength increases and the weight comes off, you seem them getting bitten by the bug. 12 months later that "average man" is moving decent weight, running decent times and is in decent nick.

The rewards of working with people in such a way is so much more than monetary in my mind.

g'em

Could you put a n00b on Sheiko and give them a great grounding in the basics that will stand to them for months and years of training to come? Sure.

Should you? Meh, an entirely different kettle of poisson.

It's sort of, but not exactly , like the GSD. Everybody has the ability to do the GSD diet, irrespective of their level of nutritonal knowledge or dieting history. But that doesn't mean that doing it would be a good idea, in fact it would probably be a downright crappy idea and turn them off healthy food for life.


The GSD is essentially about eating a high fat, moderate protein, super-low carb diet. But it involves an acute awareness of your body's nutritional needs, how to structure your eating habits on a calorie deficit, how to know when cravings are annoyances to be tolerated and when they may be telling you much more, how not to give in to those cravings, how get the most of your nutrient timing etc etc. If you don't know about these things, or experience them for the first time while ont he diet it's enough to make you turn on your heels and run screaming from broccoli and other green fibrous veg for evermore.

I know Malteaser! did Sheiko with great results with very little practical lifting experience under her belt (PLing style or otherwise) but she's an exception rather than the norm. She was immersed in PLing culture for a long time, saw the lifts, saw good vs. bad form, knew that squatting to parallel was not going to cripple your knees for all eternity and had a very experienced high level PLing boyfriend to help her draw together the lifting plan and caoch her at every step of the way. Right from the very beginning she was at a major advantage over the "regular" or "average" n00b. That's not to detract at all from her results, all the hard work was put in and she deserved the success. But not everyone has the resources available to them that she had so teh same results can't be expected.


So, on the surface while things like kinesthetic awareness and getting things 100% right from the very beginning might be optimal in an ideal world, the reality for most people is that a huge amount of trial and error, learning and adapting and plain old groundwork is needed before attempting what is, in fairness, an advanced plan like Sheiko.

wasabi

Plus, you've got to ask the question of what a beginner would get from Sheiko that couldn't be achieved in half the time in the gym? Beginners will improve rapidly with any solid program, they don't need to kill themselves with the likes of Sheiko.

Jimmy Bottlehead

I'd have to say, I only started going to the gym and training properly around six or seven months ago. I read a lot (haha, all contradictory of course!) and asked a lot of advice, and trial and error led the way. But it was also kind of nice feeling my way into it, and not going full bore into a complex plan. I lost my training flower in a nice gentle way and it's kept me coming back for more.

g'em

Jimmy Bottlehead wrote: »

I lost my training flower in a nice gentle way and it's kept me coming back for more.

I'm not sure why, but that's had me falling about laughing for a good couple of minutes now...

hardtrainer

Back to the topic from the OP and in response to G'em, nobody, I don't think anyone here is saying that mirrors are useless and that they are not needed. They are badly needed in TCD, but the OP did say that she'd been lifting for 5 years and is therefore most certainly not a noob! If you don't have a good sense of what your body is doing during a basic lift (since when are DLs complicated??) then you've probably been wasting your time in the gym for whatever many years.

G'em, you had good form in your lifts from the get go coz you had good instruction. Do you think that you've lost the ability to keep that form? Of course not.

As I said already, if you start with a light set and have good form, you should be able to continue to add weight and keep good form until you hit your max, thats when your form will drop again.

The real value of mirrors in a gym is for those people who are experienced lifters and who can spot what's going wrong in their lifts with a quick glace. The majority of noobs will need some personal instruction and advice, with someone watching them as they lift, to get their form right. But once it's taught once, a little concentration should allow them to feel if the form is right.

Of course, as you become more experienced, you become much better at this (as in you can be much more specific about where your from is off), but it's hard wired into your nervous system, so everyone is capable of it, regardless of how new they are to lifting.

Hanley

hardtrainer wrote: »

Back to the topic from the OP and in response to G'em, nobody, I don't think anyone here is saying that mirrors are useless and that they are not needed. They are badly needed in TCD, but the OP did say that she'd been lifting for 5 years and is therefore most certainly not a noob! If you don't have a good sense of what your body is doing during a basic lift (since when are DLs complicated??) then you've probably been wasting your time in the gym for whatever many years.

I didn't want to get drawn into another argument but I was also wondering that why after 5 years you don't know what your body should feel like when you're deadlifting?

Degsy

I'm stronger than 90% of the people in my gym but i still use the mirrors,especially for deadlifting and heavy shrugs.I think TCD should have mirrors so people can see what they're doing.

Hanley

Degsy wrote: »

I'm stronger than 90% of the people in my gym but i still use the mirrors,especially for deadlifting and heavy shrugs.I think TCD should have mirrors so people can see what they're doing.

How do you use the mirror for shrugs and deadlifts? Genuine question.

I really find they distract the hell out of me.

celestial

I think that mirrors are essential in gyms - even for the obvious reason that you can see who is around and behind you when you are lifting heavy things around the place:)

g'em

Hanley wrote: »

I didn't want to get drawn into another argument but I was also wondering that why after 5 years you don't know what your body should feel like when you're deadlifting?

Who said anything about arguing!?? As far as I could see we were having a rational grown up discussion about it.

And if you don't think it's reasonable for taconnol to have issues with her form after this length of time, why not (in the spirit of the festive season) offer to have a look at her DL training and give her some pointers?

Macha

Hanley wrote: »

I didn't want to get drawn into another argument but I was also wondering that why after 5 years you don't know what your body should feel like when you're deadlifting?

I gave straight -leg DLS - which are a bit tougher on the old back than normal DLS just as an example. Like I said, I like to vary my exercises and sometimes I'm doing one that I haven't done in a while, liiike I dunno a barbell T-bar row. Sometimes through the effort you can end up putting your back in the wrong position without realising it.

Anyway that's it.

Degsy

Hanley wrote: »

How do you use the mirror for shrugs and deadlifts? Genuine question.

I really find they distract the hell out of me.

I find the mirrors show the balance and form,i'm a copmparative newcomer to heavy deads so i like to see if my form is off.With shrugs the mirror shows you how high you're lifting your traps,and if you're bending the arms or anything cheaty like that.

empirix

Sorry but i think mirrors are very important for form, some people might have very deep concentration and know good form inside out but unfortuanetely i don't and find having a mirror there helps a lot

Hanley

I don't think anyone's arguing against mirrors in the gym.

My point was that not having a mirror doesn't make it the fault of the gym if you injure yourself. Especially if we're talking someone with 5+ years exp.

For beginner's they obviously handy to have, but once the basic positions are familiar they should really try and get themselves away from the mirror. It really does prove to be a distraction. I would be of the opinion that if you can look in the mirror and observe what you're doing mid set and try to fix it then you're not concentrating hard enough on pushing the weight (of course that's assuming we've somoen with some experience who knows how the exercise in question should be performed).

Anyway's that just my 2 cents.

empirix

fair enough point, i just prefer to use them, i do admit my form is not perfect and never has been but a lot of the time its intentional i.e. so i get a better pump etc, not just being a lazy cnut

Roper

Alternative to mirrors- mobile phones. Just tape yourself from the angle you need most, usually from the side, and you'll know within seconds.

Macha

Woohoo! Mirrors are up in TCD gym. Now if they could just sort out the windows that turn everyone into a spectacle for passers by.... I swear I'm not demanding

Cheeky_gal

taconnol wrote: »

Woohoo! Mirrors are up in TCD gym. Now if they could just sort out the windows that turn everyone into a spectacle for passers by.... I swear I'm not demanding

ahahahaha they're the funniest! Standing there, arms folded just staring in at the lads lifting is sooo funny, they get so uncomfortable....! haha! I havent done it of course....i've just been told! :rolleyes:

Edwardius

Cheeky_gal wrote: »

ahahahaha they're the funniest! Standing there, arms folded just staring in at the lads lifting is sooo funny, they get so uncomfortable....! haha! I havent done it of course....i've just been told! :rolleyes:

Not half as bad when the boss walks by when you're trying to lift something heavy with the best red porno face you can muster!

Good to have the mirrors in though, even if they were mounted fairly terribly, hopefully that was just temporary. never know with trinity though...