The murder of Thomas Ashe in 1917

McArmalite

Most people would answer if asked who was the first Irishman to die on hunger strike, Terence McSweeney, which is incorrect. The first Irishman to die on hunger strike was Thomas Ashe ( originally from Kerry, Irish name, Tomás Ághas) on the 25th of September 1917.

Ashe took part in the Easter Rising of 1916 with a force of 60-70 men who took on the British forces around north County Dublin/Metah. His unit won a victory in Ashbourne, County Meath where they engaged a much larger force capturing a significant quantity of arms and up to 20 (RIC) vehicles. 24 hours after the rising collapsed, on the orders of Padraig Pearse, Ashe's unit surrendered.

Imprisoned in Lewes Gaol in England, Ashe and other prisoners were freed on 18 June 1917 by Lloyd George as part of a general amnesty. However, in August 1917, Ashe was arrested and charged with sedition for a speech that he made in Ballinalee, County Longford where Michael Collins had also been speaking. He was convicted and sentenced to two years hard labour. Ashe and other prisoners, demanded prisoner of war status and he went on hunger strike on 20 September 1917. On 25 September 1917, he died at the Mater Hospital after gross and vindictive mistreatment by the british authorities.

The verdict of the Coroner's Jury was to shock and enrage Irish public opinion. The finding stated " his death was caused by the punishment of taking away from the cell, bed, bedding and boots and allowing him to lie on the cold floor for 50 hours and then subjected to forcible feeding in his weak condition after hunger striking for 6 days ". Even the Daily Express, no friend of Ireland then or now, stated in their Editorial " Ashe's death and funeral has made 100,000 Sinn Feiners out of 100,000 constitutional nationalists ".

His old comrade Micheal Collins gave him the best tribute by proclaiming at his graveside during the oratory " That volley which we have just heard is the only speech which is proper to make over the grave of a dead Fenian ".

donaghs

Was anyone asking? As hunger strike was supposed to have been a common means of protest in pre-Christian and Gaelic Ireland, I very much doubt Thomas Ashe was "the first Irishman to die on hunger strike".

fits

Im not sure I'd call it 'murder' either. An inexperienced doctor put the food into his windpipe and lungs rather than his stomach. I do think he is undervalued in our history though. The Battle of Ashbourne in 1916 was the only successful battle of the rebellion.

Fratton Fred

it's classed as murder when you don't help a hunger striker, murder when you do.

The British got stick for not feeding the Irish in the 19th century, now they're getting stck for force feeding someone an the 20th.

I wish you'd make your mind up;)

fits

Fratton Fred wrote: »

it's classed as murder when you don't help a hunger striker, murder when you do.

The British got stick for not feeding the Irish in the 19th century, now they're getting stck for force feeding someone an the 20th.

I wish you'd make your mind up;)

Well as I said already.. this was a particularly brutal and horrible death as the doctor put the food into his lungs rather than stomach, so he suffocated. I think there was certainly justification for anger about this death.

Fratton Fred

fits wrote: »

I think there was certainly justification for anger about this death.

90 years ago certainly. Maybe the OP could explain the reason for the post.

fits

Fratton Fred wrote: »

90 years ago certainly.

Yes absolutely.

donaghs

I'd agree. Imagine if we all decided to post about random historical events, providing info we already know and which is publically and freely available. The result would be an unreadable deluge.

delta_bravo

Why did you post this?

ejmaztec

It was obviously posted for the same reason that, according to his signature, the Korean War was an act of British terrorism. Even the Soviets made a better job of re-writing history than that howler!

randylonghorn

Fratton Fred wrote: »

it's classed as murder when you don't help a hunger striker, murder when you do.

In fairness, Fred, the decision to forcefeed Tomás was not made from any humanitarian reasons, as should be obvious from the Coroner's findings ... a desire to avoid negative publicity, especially in the US, if he died on hunger strike much more likely ... with the possible additional factor of the military / prison authorities mentality which never likes to be bested ...

That said, as you point out, it was 90 years ago, and I would also question the OP's motives for posting ... well, given his nick, I probably wouldn't have to question too deeply ... :rolleyes:

Erin Go Brath

Lads, its the History forum. If anyone wants to post about a historical figure they are entitled to do so.

Thomas Ashe was an interesting, and important figure in Irelands fight for freedom. He achieved great successes in the battle of Ashbourne, until forced to surrender by Pearse.

He was later unfairly jailed with a typically trumped up charge of sedition against the crown, while speaking in Longford.

His brutal treatment at the hands of the oppresor certainly increased Republican recruitment. A hero, and martyr for Ireland, may he R.I.P.

Fratton Fred

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

Lads, its the History forum. If anyone wants to post about a historical figure they are entitled to do so.

Thomas Ashe was an interesting, and important figure in Irelands fight for freedom. He achieved great successes in the battle of Ashbourne, until forced to surrender by Pearse.

He was later unfairly jailed with a typically trumped up charge of sedition against the crown, while speaking in Longford.

His brutal treatment at the hands of the oppresor certainly increased Republican recruitment. A hero, and martyr for Ireland, may he R.I.P.

Why Ashbourne, did it have any military significance?

Erin Go Brath

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Why Ashbourne, did it have any military significance?

They seized a large amount of arms, and 20 RIC vehicles, and defeated a much larger force. If it wasn't for the ill-fated events in the GPO, and the call from Pearse to surrender it would have been a more significant victory.

fits

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Why Ashbourne, did it have any military significance?

As far as I know, his job was to disable the railway lines out there, but they encountered a convoy of British Soldiers on the way into Dublin to reinforce Dublin troops, and Ashe decided to attack them and won the ensuing battle.

Fratton Fred

Thanks Guys, the thread has been useful for something:D

csk

The Battle of Ashbourne was important as it was a presursor in some ways to the Flying Columns and the Guerilla Warfare adopted during the War of Independence. Another notable involved at Ashebourne was Richard Mulcahy who would go on to become Chief of Staff of the IRA.

Ashe himself was later head of the IRB, and I believe, one of the main people involved in pushing the Republicans towards political involvement. His death was a tragedy and percieved as such at the time (btw good post Randylonghorn).

McArmalite

Ok folks, I and most people would have thought that Thomas Ashe's death was due alone to the force feeding procedure going wrong and killing him. The purpose of my post was to bring attention to the fact as stated in the Coroner's Jury verdict, that the cruel mistreatment of forcing a man on hunger strike to lie on a cold floor for 50 hours was ALSO a contributing factor in his death. When someone's death is brought on by deliberate mistreatment - I call it murder.

donaghs wrote: »

Was anyone asking? As hunger strike was supposed to have been a common means of protest in pre-Christian and Gaelic Ireland, I very much doubt Thomas Ashe was "the first Irishman to die on hunger strike".

" Was anyone asking "....What sort of a dumb, stupid comment is that ?? Am I to conclude that when a person comes across some historical information they think noteworthy that they are supposed to wait until someone asks a question about the subject before posting ? Your a genius :rolleyes:. As Erin Go Brath states " Lads, its the History forum. If anyone wants to post about a historical figure they are entitled to do so. "

Though I do agree with you regarding the hunger strike been a form of protest in pre-Christian Ireland, it was also a custom with the Native Americans ( the Native Americans and Celtic culture and values had much in common). But since there is no evidence of anyone in Ireland dying on a hunger strike, my statement " The first Irishman to die on hunger strike was Thomas Ashe " stands correct.

donaghs wrote: »

I'd agree. Imagine if we all decided to post about random historical events, providing info we already know and which is publically and freely available. The result would be an unreadable deluge.

Before posting I read the Wikipedia entry for Thomas Ashe. There is no mention whatsoever of the mistreatment of him which contributed to his death. Since, I have done a search in Google with - Thomas Ashe coroner verdict - and have not seen the Coroner's Jury Verdict I posted ( I actually read about the report in a copy of Ireland's Own ). Therefore Einstein you are spouting bolox when you state it is " info we already know and which is publically and freely available. "

Must go but please don't try to be such a smart bitch again with me donaghs, as others may tell you buddy, McArm can fight his corner .

PHB

Lads in all fairness, it's a history forum. People are going to post about history, whatever their personal motiviations might be, i'm not sure, but frankly I don't care. As long as the post isn't trolling, i.e. saying stuff just to annoy people and get into an argument, then it's perfectly allowed.

Personally I had never heard of Thomas Ashe so this post was slightly interesting. History for historys sake on this forum is ok with me.

fits

PHB wrote: »

Personally I had never heard of Thomas Ashe so this post was slightly interesting. History for historys sake on this forum is ok with me.

He was related to my grandfather which is why I have an interest in him. As far as I can tell, my family seemed to blame DeValera more than they blamed the British for his death. As to why? I cant really answer that. It think it was something to do with DeV exploiting Ashe's oratory talent for DeV's own election campaign, while he himself remained very quiet and uncontroversial... hence Ashe got arrested. I'll have to poke for that information again.

SubjectSean

Is it true that Ashe and Casement were lovers?

fits

I thought Ashe was going out with Kitty Kiernans sister?

Never heard anything about Casement, but that doesnt mean its untrue.

Fratton Fred

SubjectSean wrote: »

Is it true that Ashe and Casement were lovers?

I thought a lot of Casements "Personal Exploits" were just rumours put around to try and discredit him, the Black diaries etc.

SubjectSean

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I thought a lot of Casements "Personal Exploits" were just rumours put around to try and discredit him, the Black diaries etc.

AFAIK the "black diaries" were genuine and have been proven as such

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/britain_wwone/casement_01.shtml

McArmalite

Fratton Fred wrote: »

it's classed as murder when you don't help a hunger striker, murder when you do.

The British got stick for not feeding the Irish in the 19th century, now they're getting stck for force feeding someone an the 20th.

I wish you'd make your mind up;)

I don't see how forcing a man on hunger strike to lie on a cold floor for 50 hours is helping him - but obviously you do, but that's only to be expected from you anyway when it's the actions of britian. Secondly he and others " demanded prisoner of war status and he went on hunger strike on 20 September 1917 ". They would not have had to use hunger strike or subsequent force feeding if they were granted thier rightful status. Indeed he and thousands of Irishmen and women would never have been a day in any prison only for british occupation, the real criminals in the situation been the british govt. and it's occupying forces.

fits wrote: »

He was related to my grandfather which is why I have an interest in him. As far as I can tell, my family seemed to blame DeValera more than they blamed the British for his death. As to why? I cant really answer that. It think it was something to do with DeV exploiting Ashe's oratory talent for DeV's own election campaign, while he himself remained very quiet and uncontroversial... hence Ashe got arrested. I'll have to poke for that information again.

Very interesting fits. Hope you find and post the information.

McArmalite

ejmaztec wrote: »

It was obviously posted for the same reason that, according to his signature, the Korean War was an act of British terrorism. Even the Soviets made a better job of re-writing history than that howler!

The places and wars mentioned in my signature are there to highlight ther participation in ' wars for peace' ( i.e. terrorist campaigns ) the british have engaged throughout the world just since WW2 alone, under the cover of International Policeman/ peacekeepers, "weapons of mass destruction", " tough but at all times fair " and all that other claptrap etc.

SubjectSean wrote: »

AFAIK the "black diaries" were genuine and have been proven as such

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/britain_wwone/casement_01.shtml

Although there is conflicting arguments about their authenticity, from stuff I've read they seem to be genuine. But as for Ashe and Casement been lovers, sounds like something from the Eoghan Harris school of reality. But if you have any reference to prove otherwise I'd be interested.

guinnessdrinker

In a lot of ways Thomas Ashes's contribution to 1916 seem to be overlooked.

Here's an interesting snippet though, he appears to have been at least courteous to the RIC before the battle. An eyewitness states that:

"Tom Ashe came walking down the road and went to the Barracks and asked the police to surrender...The police refused to surrender. Ashe went back to his men, got them under cover ,and the battle began in earnest."

But at least he asked, then again why would the police have wanted to surrender, especially as they had been reinforced that morning.

I found that statement in a book I read recently called "Witnesses" by Annie Ryan. It's a fairly good read which is based on witness statements that the government gathered in the 40's and 50's from survivors of the time.

I know history is full of "what if's" but i wonder how things would have went if other parts of the country were as well organised (or ignored the countermanding order) at the time as Ashe's men.

Also, a lot of people seem to forget that for a large part, especially where the RIC were concerned, it was Irishman against Irishman in 1916.

ejmaztec

McArmalite wrote: »

The places and wars mentioned in my signature are there to highlight ther participation in ' wars for peace' ( i.e. terrorist campaigns ) the british have engaged throughout the world just since WW2 alone, under the cover of International Policeman/ peacekeepers, "weapons of mass destruction", " tough but at all times fair " and all that other claptrap etc

I'm interested to know how those poor North Koreans, Russians and Chinese got terrorised by the British in the Korean War. Please enlighten me.

randylonghorn

fits wrote: »

He was related to my grandfather which is why I have an interest in him.

... and to my grandmother! :eek:

O_o

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I thought a lot of Casements "Personal Exploits" were just rumours put around to try and discredit him, the Black diaries etc.

The "Black Diaries" were used unscrupulously to discredit Casement, and to nip in the bud any public and international pressure for a stay of execution (Casement, a former officer of the British consular service, was quite well known and respected internationally as a result of his work in the Congo and in Peru, where he had written about and highlighted the horrendous ill-treatment of rubber plantation workers). The diaries were then held in such secrecy by the British Government as to bolster suspicions that the diaries themselves were forgeries, and the whole thing was a propaganda campaign ... Yeats and others argued this very strongly, as I recall.

The fact that supposed copies of the diaries had been circulated at the time under the direction of the British DNI, Reginald Hall, who had a reputation for dirty tricks and was strongly suspected of using forged documents in other cases, added fuel to the fire.

A less convincing argument often made was that a "good nationalist" like Casement could not have been gay! :rolleyes:

However, while there is no doubt that the spin-doctors of the time "made gay while the sun shone" (as I have heard one historian describe it) there seems to be a fairly general acceptance at this stage that Casement was gay, and the weight of scholarly opinion seems to lean towards accepting the so-called "Black Diaries" as genuine ... or at least basically genuine with perhaps the odd interpolation to add further "evidence" of Casement's sexual proclivities.

The case is by no means fully proven, however, and questions have been raised about the methodologies employed by the last major study by Audrey Giles. Unless future forensic technology provides us with additional evidence, there is a strong possibility that the case will never be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt for either side.

There is no doubt whatsoever, however, that the spin-doctors of the time (a time when it was both illegal and, at least publicly, completely morally reprehensible to be homosexual) used the diaries, whether genuine or not, to fuel an unscrupulous propaganda campaign against Casement based on a side of his life which had nothing whatsoever to do with the charges on which he had been convicted. This campaign successfully undermined strong public and in particular international support and sympathy for Casement, based in no small part on his previous humanitarian record, and cleared the way for his execution.

It is probably worth noting that rumours of someone's homosexuality (or indeed other sexual wrongdoing) were more commonly bandied about as political ammunition at the time than one might suppose ... the tabloids might be a relatively new phenomenon, the sleazy rumours that they revel in are a more abiding pattern. AFAIR, rumours were circulated at one stage that Michael Collins was gay ... a rumour that is supposed to have greatly amused his brother when it was later mentioned to him. Later, so many rumours circulated about his supposed affairs with women that he could easily be characterised as the one-night-stand king of Ireland ... even by to-day's standards! While there is no great reason to believe that Collins died a good wholesome Irish Catholic boy, as some of his hagiographers tried to portray him in their turn, there isn't much evidence either to support the theory of Collins as serial philanderer.

SubjectSean wrote: »

Is it true that Ashe and Casement were lovers?

fits wrote: »

Never heard anything about Casement, but that doesnt mean its untrue.

Never heard anything about that either ... not saying it couldn't be true, but probably far more likely more of the rumour mill ...

fits wrote: »

I thought Ashe was going out with Kitty Kiernans sister?

Really? I knew Collins and Harry Boland didn't seem to be able to make up their mind which of Kitty and Helen they both wanted, until Helen settled it for them by marrying someone else. Didn't know Tomás was tied up in any of that?

donaghs

McArmalite, you certainly are determined to fight your corner.;) I've read books on the period that cover Thomas Ashe and the events of his life. Never heard the Casement connection before though.

Korea is interesting though. I'm a bit hazy on the British imperialist war there (unless it refers to a minor role alongside the Americans in their war). Thankfully the North Koreans managed to escape the British clutches and were able to create the Workers Paradise which is a shining example to the rest of the world.;)

Fratton Fred

ejmaztec wrote: »

I'm interested to know how those poor North Koreans, Russians and Chinese got terrorised by the British in the Korean War. Please enlighten me.

Yeah, but you have to admit that the way the British went and threw out Argentina after they invaded their territory was disgusting

McArmalite wrote: »

Secondly he and others " demanded prisoner of war status and he went on hunger strike on 20 September 1917 ". They would not have had to use hunger strike or subsequent force feeding if they were granted thier rightful status.

I hear there's a guy in Portlaoise that is demanding two call girls, 8 cans of Guinnes and a 42" plasma tv, if he doesn't get them he is going on Hunger strike. Better give in to him eh:rolleyes:

fits

randylonghorn wrote: »

... and to my grandmother! :eek:

Actually maybe it was my grandmother too! I sense a historical family conversation coming up as the people that can enlighten me on this subject arent getting any younger.

Really? I knew Collins and Harry Boland didn't seem to be able to make up their mind which of Kitty and Helen they both wanted, until Helen settled it for them by marrying someone else. Didn't know Tomás was tied up in any of that?

Now I cant find where I read that. Theres a wee book at home that maybe mentions it.

ejmaztec

donaghs wrote: »

McArmalite, you certainly are determined to fight your corner.;) I've read books on the period that cover Thomas Ashe and the events of his life. Never heard the Casement connection before though.

Korea is interesting though. I'm a bit hazy on the British imperialist war there (unless it refers to a minor role alongside the Americans in their war). Thankfully the North Koreans managed to escape the British clutches and were able to create the Workers Paradise which is a shining example to the rest of the world.;)

It's a well known fact, by at least one person, that the Korean War was started by MI6. They knew that lots of Irish people were in the US army and wanted to get rid of as many as they could. They lured the US into the war, along with 20 odd other members of the UN and put their cunning plan into action. After painting their faces yellow, and putting on funny hats, they targeted the GIs who had shamrocks painted on their helmets. Damn sneaky, those Brits! This is a true account of what happened.

McArmalite

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Yeah, but you have to admit that the way the British went and threw out Argentina after they invaded their territory was disgusting
I hear there's a guy in Portlaoise that is demanding two call girls, 8 cans of Guinnes and a 42" plasma tv, if he doesn't get them he is going on Hunger strike. Better give in to him eh:rolleyes:

ejmaztec wrote: »

It's a well known fact, by at least one person, that the Korean War was started by MI6. They knew that lots of Irish people were in the US army and wanted to get rid of as many as they could. They lured the US into the war, along with 20 odd other members of the UN and put their cunning plan into action. After painting their faces yellow, and putting on funny hats, they targeted the GIs who had shamrocks painted on their helmets. Damn sneaky, those Brits! This is a true account of what happened.

Your sooooo witty and funny lads, everyone must be in stitches reading your hilarious comments......ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Anyway, enough about the Korean War, it's got nothing to do with the subject of the posting. If any of you want to start a thread on the Korean War, fine by me. But don't expect me to swallow any rubbish about britain's invovlement been due to it's role as an honest and sincere International Policeman bring peace and justice thru it's " wars for peace " to places thousands of miles from it etc, etc.

DublinDes

randylonghorn wrote: »

... and to my grandmother! :eek:

O_o

The "Black Diaries" were used unscrupulously to discredit Casement, and to nip in the bud any public and international pressure for a stay of execution (Casement, a former officer of the British consular service, was quite well known and respected internationally as a result of his work in the Congo and in Peru, where he had written about and highlighted the horrendous ill-treatment of rubber plantation workers). The diaries were then held in such secrecy by the British Government as to bolster suspicions that the diaries themselves were forgeries, and the whole thing was a propaganda campaign ... Yeats and others argued this very strongly, as I recall.

The fact that supposed copies of the diaries had been circulated at the time under the direction of the British DNI, Reginald Hall, who had a reputation for dirty tricks and was strongly suspected of using forged documents in other cases, added fuel to the fire.

A less convincing argument often made was that a "good nationalist" like Casement could not have been gay! :rolleyes:

However, while there is no doubt that the spin-doctors of the time "made gay while the sun shone" (as I have heard one historian describe it) there seems to be a fairly general acceptance at this stage that Casement was gay, and the weight of scholarly opinion seems to lean towards accepting the so-called "Black Diaries" as genuine ... or at least basically genuine with perhaps the odd interpolation to add further "evidence" of Casement's sexual proclivities.

The case is by no means fully proven, however, and questions have been raised about the methodologies employed by the last major study by Audrey Giles. Unless future forensic technology provides us with additional evidence, there is a strong possibility that the case will never be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt for either side.

There is no doubt whatsoever, however, that the spin-doctors of the time (a time when it was both illegal and, at least publicly, completely morally reprehensible to be homosexual) used the diaries, whether genuine or not, to fuel an unscrupulous propaganda campaign against Casement based on a side of his life which had nothing whatsoever to do with the charges on which he had been convicted. This campaign successfully undermined strong public and in particular international support and sympathy for Casement, based in no small part on his previous humanitarian record, and cleared the way for his execution.

It is probably worth noting that rumours of someone's homosexuality (or indeed other sexual wrongdoing) were more commonly bandied about as political ammunition at the time than one might suppose ... the tabloids might be a relatively new phenomenon, the sleazy rumours that they revel in are a more abiding pattern. AFAIR, rumours were circulated at one stage that Michael Collins was gay ... a rumour that is supposed to have greatly amused his brother when it was later mentioned to him. Later, so many rumours circulated about his supposed affairs with women that he could easily be characterised as the one-night-stand king of Ireland ... even by to-day's standards! While there is no great reason to believe that Collins died a good wholesome Irish Catholic boy, as some of his hagiographers tried to portray him in their turn, there isn't much evidence either to support the theory of Collins as serial philanderer. Never heard anything about that either ... not saying it couldn't be true, but probably far more likely more of the rumour mill ...

Really? I knew Collins and Harry Boland didn't seem to be able to make up their mind which of Kitty and Helen they both wanted, until Helen settled it for them by marrying someone else. Didn't know Tomás was tied up in any of that?

" There is no doubt whatsoever, however, that the spin-doctors of the time (a time when it was both illegal and, at least publicly, completely morally reprehensible to be homosexual) used the diaries, ".

It's STILL morally reprehensible to be homosexual as far as I'm concerned. :mad: I know the usual do gooders etc will come on denouncing me a as a backward Nazi etc, insecure of my own sexuality. though I think the brits were just out to blacked Casement's name.

SpitfireIV

DublinDes wrote: »

I know the usual do gooders etc will come on denouncing me a as a backward Nazi etc

You'd like that, wouldnt you*


* don't feed

Fratton Fred

DublinDes wrote: »

" There is no doubt whatsoever, however, that the spin-doctors of the time (a time when it was both illegal and, at least publicly, completely morally reprehensible to be homosexual) used the diaries, ".

It's STILL morally reprehensible to be homosexual as far as I'm concerned. :mad: I know the usual do gooders etc will come on denouncing me a as a backward Nazi etc, insecure of my own sexuality. though I think the brits were just out to blacked Casement's name.

shame, you've just missed the annual awards, That would have won you second prize in the "Shooting yourself in the foot with an Armalite" category

after the "No foreign sports in Croke Park" hero.......actually, where were you that day??:p

DublinDes

Fratton Fred wrote: »

shame, you've just missed the annual awards, That would have won you second prize in the "Shooting yourself in the foot with an Armalite" category

after the "No foreign sports in Croke Park" hero.......actually, where were you that day??:p

Don't know what your on about buddy "Shooting yourself in the foot with an Armalite"....."No foreign sports in Croke Park" hero....

The thing is - do you ? ? ?

CroppyBoy1798, I know whose upset because he couldn't be the fairy on the top of the Xmas tree in Carlow :D:D

McArmalite

Enjoying your little pleasantries lads, but completely off topic. Can we get back on topic ?

DublinDes

McArmalite wrote: »

Enjoying your little pleasantries lads, but completely off topic. Can we get back on topic ?

You like your own little pleasentries McArm , yourself and Fred Fratton are always bitching.

luckat

I'm amused by how emotional people get about history.

Ashe was a massive big man, and word on the streets (leaking out from the jails) at the time was that the prison warders particularly targeted him, and that the food going into his lungs was not accidental. I heard that it happened three times.

Bit of background: Gregory Peck was a (first?) cousin of Ashe, and Ashe was a brilliant traditional musician, a beautiful piper.

fits

Ashe used to climb to the top of a hill in Kinard and serenade the locality with his uileann pipes.

I hope he was a good piper!

McArmalite

luckat wrote: »

I'm amused by how emotional people get about history.

Ashe was a massive big man, and word on the streets (leaking out from the jails) at the time was that the prison warders particularly targeted him, and that the food going into his lungs was not accidental. I heard that it happened three times.

Bit of background: Gregory Peck was a (first?) cousin of Ashe, and Ashe was a brilliant traditional musician, a beautiful piper.

"Gregory Peck was a (first?) cousin of Ashe " - Very interesting. I knew he had relations in Ireland and visited them several times. Appearently in private life he was a civil, decent sort of fella. He was also a handy ametuer boxer in his youth I believe. His most memberable film for me is The Scarlet and the Black based on the true story of Monsignor Hugh O'Flaherty who despite official Vatican neutrality and significant risk to his personal safety, he organized a network to save Jewish refugees and Allied POWs from the Nazis. Very good film.

fits

They werent first cousins, but I *think* their parents were.

luckat

Here's a page with a mention of the relationship:

http://www.askaboutireland.ie/show_narrative_page.do?page_id=3785

and a subpage showing him with the other Ashes:

http://www.askaboutireland.ie/show_narrative_page.do?page_id=3866

and a postcard of Thomas Ashe in national dress:

http://www.islandireland.com/Pages/history/archives/postcards/easter6.html

kreuzberger

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

Thomas Ashe was an interesting, and important figure in Irelands fight for freedom. He achieved great successes in the battle of Ashbourne, until forced to surrender by Pearse.

.

The Provisional governemnt , not just Pearse , ordered all forces to surrender after the failure of the uprising . Had there been the remotest chance of hope no such order would have been given . Dublin was being levelled with artillery regardless of civilian casualties and very very few Irishmen had turned out . Many turned out to shoot at the rebels and jeer them upon capture , such is the mentality of our people after centuries of colonialism. To expect a single unit to carry on regardless in those circumstances would have been very wrong regardless of its initial success . Within a few days that intial success would have turned into wholesale disaster . The point had been made though and there was little point carrying on just for the sake of killing a few more brits . It made much more sense militarily for ashes forces to withdraw from the field and return in more favourable circumstances .

The episode illustrated though had it not been for MacNeills deliberate sabotage of the enterprise though British rule in Ireland would have been in serious trouble . The limited uprisings in Galway and Wexford caused them seriousproblems as well as the events in ashbourne and Dublin . Had they managed to hold out for just a few months a german landing was a definite possibility . Ireland would then have been run according to the will of the Irish and not threats by Britain .

foxshooter243

ejmaztec wrote: »

It's a well known fact, by at least one person, that the Korean War was started by MI6. They knew that lots of Irish people were in the US army and wanted to get rid of as many as they could. They lured the US into the war, along with 20 odd other members of the UN and put their cunning plan into action. After painting their faces yellow, and putting on funny hats, they targeted the GIs who had shamrocks painted on their helmets. Damn sneaky, those Brits! This is a true account of what happened.

i find your comment so stupid and sad.......

ejmaztec

foxshooter243 wrote: »

i find your comment so stupid and sad.......

The truth hurts, doesn't it?:D

Riddle101

It's sad how the good always seem to die so early Wolfe Tone,Thomas Ashe, Micheal Collins etc. it's also funny how both Ashe and Collins had achieved what they wanted before their deaths as well. For Ashe he gave way for the Flying Colums and the Guerrilla Warfare we would use during the War for Independence, and for Collins he helped Ireland achieve what it had been denied for so long, even if it can be considered semi independence it was the best thing we got for 300 years. It's fair to say they died a Hero's Death

SpitfireIV

Riddle101 wrote:

It's fair to say they died a Hero's Death

Wolfetone making a botched job of suicide and dying a slow death, Ashe dying from force feeding and Collins trying to play the hero on a roadside in Cork, I wouldnt quite count those as 'Hero's' deaths, but then again, I suppose the great ones always go out with some sort of controversy. But yes, the good die young, but only those who died young pass into legend and we are left with the never answered question 'what if?'

Riddle101

CroppyBoy1798 wrote: »

Wolfetone making a botched job of suicide and dying a slow death, Ashe dying from force feeding and Collins trying to play the hero on a roadside in Cork, I wouldnt quite count those as 'Hero's' deaths, but then again, I suppose the great ones always go out with some sort of controversy. But yes, the good die young, but only those who died young pass into legend and we are left with the never answered question 'what if?'

Well actually when i said a hero's death i meant they died achieving what they fought for and gave way for Ireland to gain it's Independence. Wolfe Tone of course can be excluded but Collins and Ashe had done their lifes goal and as soon as they had done that they died a death of a hero because it earned them a legacy that will be untarnished. I've never seen or read a bad thing about Collins or Ashe and that is why i think they are great. We never will see them doing a wrong and that is how a true hero should be