Should a father have equal rights as a mother?

Amazotheamazing

In Ireland, an unmarried father has the right to apply for guardianship, custody and access of his child, even if he is unsuccessful in his application, he can still be made to pay maintainence for his child. Is this ok, or should every father automatically be a guardian of his child unless it can be shown he is unfit for the role?

Just curious to see what the response to this fairly straightforward question is on a mostly female section of boards.

Fruityfriends

yes! i think they should have equal rights.. there just as much a parent as the mother.. it should be 50/50 each way..

Malteaser!

I absolutely think that they should have equal rights, some of the stories that you hear of mothers keeping their children away from their dads are heartbreaking.

Why shouldn't they automatically become guardians of their own children?? It's just something I don't understand.

Pigletlover

Malteaser! wrote: »

I absolutely think that they should have equal rights, some of the stories that you hear of mothers keeping their children away from their dads are heartbreaking.

Why shouldn't they automatically become guardians of their own children?? It's just something I don't understand.

QFT

Mr. Presentable

Both parents should have equal rights. But this should be in Politics - it is not a feminine issue.

Xavi6

Of course they should. Case closed.

k-a-t-e

Yes a father should have the same rights as a mother. It took both of them to create the child so there should be equal rights, responsibilities and ultimately 'feedback' from the child.

Lola123

Yeah, there should be equal rights, and if it's a case of who gets guardianship...then the kids should stay with the parent most capable of looking after them the best (and not just in monetary terms)

Crumble Froo

Lola123 wrote: »

Yeah, there should be equal rights, and if it's a case of who gets guardianship...then the kids should stay with the parent most capable of looking after them the best (and not just in monetary terms)

but who gets to decide which parent is most capable of looking after the kid?

Nevyn

guardianship is seperate from custody or joing custody.

GhostInTheRuins

I could never understand why they didn't have equal rights.

Amazotheamazing

nipplenuts wrote: »

Both parents should have equal rights. But this should be in Politics - it is not a feminine issue.

I agree it is a political issue, but I was curious to see what a mostly female readership would think on the issue.

Malteaser!

And they should most definately become guardians automatically when the child is born, all this ****e about them having to go to the court to become guardians is nonsense. I know its only a form they have to fill out and most fathers get it but the very fact that they have to do it is disgraceful!!

Jules

nipplenuts wrote: »

Both parents should have equal rights. But this should be in Politics - it is not a feminine issue.

/me rubs shiney Mod badge..... NOW......


Who says its just a political issue. If you are going to be like that it should also be in the parenting forum. And it is also very much a woman issues.


I would also like to say NO ONE LIKES A BACK SEAT MOD! behave or ill infract your bottom!

Peared

Maybe in an ideal world. What about men who feck off when the woman gets pregnant, should he have equal rights? Or if he decided to come back after a year or two and takes a sudden interest in the child, should he have equal rights? Should rights be given for donation of sperm? And what about children born as a result of rape, should daddy have rights over baby then? The woman physically creates the child within her, the man does not and never will have that attatchment.

Jules

Peared wrote: »

Maybe in an ideal world. What about men who feck off when the woman gets pregnant, should he have equal rights? Or if he decided to come back after a year or two and takes a sudden interest in the child, should he have equal rights? Should rights be given for donation of sperm? And what about children born as a result of rape, should daddy have rights over baby then? The woman physically creates the child within her, the man does not and never will have that attatchment.

Fair point Peared, but, and im not being patronising, doesn't the father help to create the child. Now i can see your point and very valid tey are. But if i think all sides should be considered. If a child is concieved by rape then no, they should have no rights, and plus should have their balls chopped off and fed to them.
If a father abandons their child and returns, well then considerations should be made. Hear the full story and make the decision from there. Sperm donation, no rights.

But what if a woman runs off and leaves the father with the kids, what then. Should she have equal rights just because "she created that child within her".

All sides should be considered.

gcgirl

Peared wrote: »

Maybe in an ideal world. What about men who feck off when the woman gets pregnant, should he have equal rights? Or if he decided to come back after a year or two and takes a sudden interest in the child, should he have equal rights? Should rights be given for donation of sperm? And what about children born as a result of rape, should daddy have rights over baby then? The woman physically creates the child within her, the man does not and never will have that attatchment.

thanks for that i totally agree with those points!

Peared

I can see where you are coming from Jules with your last point and as far as I am concerned abandonment of children should mean automatic loss of parental rights unless in the case of somebody who is in fear of their life (although tbh if thats the case take the feckin kids too)

Its a difficult issue because there are so many individual cases where sympathy will fall in a certain direction.

Also you make the point that cases should be heard on their own merit, as with a father who has left and returned. I would agree with this which is why I do not think equal rights should be automatic. If they were then the rapist would instantly gain those rights. There are grey areas also, where rape occurs within a relationship.

I think there are probably a lot of men very happy about the situation as it stands. I also think if it changed, demand for paternity tests would go through the roof.

Mr. Presentable

Jules80 wrote: »

/
I would also like to say NO ONE LIKES A BACK SEAT MOD! behave or ill infract your bottom!

I am not for one minute suggesting I can do your job. I agree "NO ONE LIKES A BACK SEAT MOD". Are you suggesting I am one?

Jules80 wrote: »

/Who says its just a political issue. If you are going to be like that it should also be in the parenting forum. And it is also very much a woman issues.

Of course it is a political issue. If you want someone to say it is, I'll happily do it! And, yes, it is also a parenting issue. Perhaps I didn't make my point clearly before: it is not, by virtue of the sex of the father, an exclusively, or majorly, feminine issue.

Jules

nipplenuts wrote: »

I am not for one minute suggesting I can do your job. I agree "NO ONE LIKES A BACK SEAT MOD". Are you suggesting I am one?

Of course it is a political issue. If you want someone to say it is, I'll happily do it! And, yes, it is also a parenting issue. Perhaps I didn't make my point clearly before: it is not, by virtue of the sex of the father, an exclusively, or majorly, feminine issue.

Yes my job is very important and no one can do it but me

But, saying that this thread should be in politics and not here is back seat modding. It is up to the mod of the forum what belongs where and, tbh, it is getting a fair few responses and does seem to be a feminine issue.

Malteaser!

Peared wrote: »

I think there are probably a lot of men very happy about the situation as it stands. I also think if it changed, demand for paternity tests would go through the roof.

I think there are more men unhappy about the situation.

There are so many fathers out there who want to see their kids, who want to be there to watch them grow up but there's an equal number of number of women who are preventing their children from seeing their Dads. It is so difficult for men to get anything more than a few hours here and there or every odd weekend with their kids when a mother is so against it.

I accept your point about men who've ran off and come back or those babies who were concieved as a result of rape but those cases are in the minority when compared to those dads who desperately want to see their children and are being denied access becasue of the current rights that they have, or lack thereof. I don't see why there can't be a situation where dads get the same rights as mums automatically and if there is a situation like the above it can be assessed individually.

ellenmelon

how are these "rights" identified in legislation? are they identified? not being cheeky, its just that the word gets used a lot without complete understanding of what it means with regards to the law.we might all have a completely different idea about what "parental rights" are when voting on the poll and discussing it in this thread.
...anyone have any links?

Creamy Goodness

D.T. Jesus wrote: »

I could never understand why they didn't have equal rights.

it's because wimmen are greedy, they want equal rights when it comes to voting and wages but as soon as a man wants equal rights the fecking alarms go off.

btw i'm of course joking above but i too think father's should have equal rights.

Malteaser!

ellenmelon wrote: »

how are these "rights" identified in legislation? are they identified? not being cheeky, its just that the word gets used a lot without complete understanding of what it means with regards to the law.we might all have a completely different idea about what "parental rights" are when voting on the poll and discussing it in this thread.
...anyone have any links?

I'll get back to this in more detail tomorrow coz I"m really wrecked now but afaik there's no definitive definition of the family in teh constitution so it's up the courts to interpret what it is and up to now they've favoured the 'family' based on marriage over those not married. And when there's a case that involves a non-married couple the natural father is not seen to be part of the family unit.

There was a case, Nicolaou v An Bord Uchtala(I think), where the dad was trying to stop the adoption of his child and agrued that the Adoption Act, 1952, was a violation of Article 41 because it gave consent to the natural mother alone to adopt the child. But the judge said that to award equal constitutional protection to the family founded on marriage and the ‘family’ founded on an extra marital union would in effect be a disregard of the pledge which the State gives in Article. 41.3.1.

In other words, because the pair weren't married the father is not part of the family as defined by the constition and doesn't have the same rights.

(i hope all that made sense, I'm sure in from work and absoluetly knackered.)

Maple

Absolutely. I know that there are exceptions to the rule ie Rape or Desertion but overall I believe men should have same rights as women. My parents divorced and the battles that ensued over access were nothing short of criminal. My mother fought him every step of the way and even now 10 years later she gets a grump on if we speak of him or go see him. The courts automatically awarded custody to my mother as my dad worked fulltime and she was a stay at home mum/fire breathing dragon.

MLE

I dont think men should have equal rights to the kids for the simple fact that women in general make all the big sacrifices for their children (going through the pregnancy and birth and having to live with the post pregnancy body etc as well as the day to day grind of bringing up the little darlings) and so because they put more in they should get more out.

uberwolf

Jules80 wrote: »

Sperm donation, no rights.

The only instance where someone should have no rights is when they have no responsibilities.

Jules80 wrote:

ut, saying that this thread should be in politics and not here is back seat modding. It is up to the mod of the forum what belongs where and, tbh, it is getting a fair few responses and does seem to be a feminine issue.

you run the risk of only getting a one sided debate if you localise a thread deliberately in a specialist forum. I believe that was the point being made, but the OP acknowledged as much in their post.

Sangre

Peared wrote: »

Maybe in an ideal world. What about men who feck off when the woman gets pregnant, should he have equal rights? Or if he decided to come back after a year or two and takes a sudden interest in the child, should he have equal rights? Should rights be given for donation of sperm? And what about children born as a result of rape, should daddy have rights over baby then? The woman physically creates the child within her, the man does not and never will have that attatchment.

Of course, a woman nevers abandons her kids. I guess I should tell my mother that....oh wait, I've never met her.

Malteaser!

I'm actually surprised more women haven't said why they think men shouldn't have the same rights, considering how many cases are being brought to the family courts it's clear that a lot of women feel that way.

I'd love to hear why they feel that way.

Peared

Sangre wrote: »

Of course, a woman nevers abandons her kids. I guess I should tell my mother that....oh wait, I've never met her.

Sangre in my second post in this thread I said I thought parental rights should be taken from any parent that abandons their children. I know its not just men, although it is mostly men. Unlike men however your mother put in at least 9 months work before she left. Not a comfort to you obviously but my point is that men have the choice about even this. The other side of it is that I think it is beyond understanding for a woman to leave her child whereas I can see how men can, not having the physical connection that women have.

WindSock

Malteaser! wrote: »

I'm actually surprised more women haven't said why they think men shouldn't have the same rights, considering how many cases are being brought to the family courts it's clear that a lot of women feel that way.

I'd love to hear why they feel that way.

I don't have kids, so I can't really answer the question properly. I would like to think that Men should have equal rights, but perhaps when the infant is past a certain age.

Piste

Do the kids not get a say? Assuming that they're of an old enough age to know what's going on! I;d imagine most kinds would want their daddy to be as much a part of their life as their mum.

Maple

Piste wrote: »

Do the kids not get a say? Assuming that they're of an old enough age to know what's going on! I;d imagine most kinds would want their daddy to be as much a part of their life as their mum.

in my own situation, no we didn't get a say. and even if we had i really don't know what we could have said. its a horribly fraught situation, you're walking a tightrope trying not to hurt one parents feelings over the other one. often kids just go with the status quo for fear of upsetting everyone.

Malteaser!

Piste wrote: »

Do the kids not get a say? Assuming that they're of an old enough age to know what's going on! I;d imagine most kinds would want their daddy to be as much a part of their life as their mum.

I was the same as Maple, I was never really given a choice.

But even when i was asked, it was very difficult to say to my mum that I wanted to go see my dad becasue I was afraid that her feelings would be hurt and she she'd think I preferred my dad but at the same time I was afraid that by not saying anything I was hurting my dad. I know when I was smaller I just kept quiet and let them sort everything out even if it meant that I didn't get to see my dad as often as I wanted.

villains77

Peared wrote: »

Maybe in an ideal world. What about men who feck off when the woman gets pregnant, should he have equal rights? Or if he decided to come back after a year or two and takes a sudden interest in the child, should he have equal rights? Should rights be given for donation of sperm? And what about children born as a result of rape, should daddy have rights over baby then? The woman physically creates the child within her, the man does not and never will have that attatchment.

its the man that makes it with the woman 2. doh have u forgotten

Peared

villains77 wrote: »

its the man that makes it with the woman 2. doh have u forgotten

Yes! Yes I had. Why didn't somebody remind me of this sooner, I would have had a completely different opinion then.


Did you read my post at all? Obviously the man contributes but the woman physically nourishes and grows the child with and in her own body. Not a point you can really refute.

matrim

MLE wrote: »

as well as the day to day grind of bringing up the little darlings

You do realise that if the man were to get the rights to see the child much of this day to day grind could be lessened. Also if the man could get custody then it would be him doing the day to day grind.

Ickle Magoo

In pregnancy no, after birth 50/50...

The Dudette

Peared wrote: »

Maybe in an ideal world. What about men who feck off when the woman gets pregnant, should he have equal rights? Or if he decided to come back after a year or two and takes a sudden interest in the child, should he have equal rights? Should rights be given for donation of sperm? And what about children born as a result of rape, should daddy have rights over baby then? The woman physically creates the child within her, the man does not and never will have that attatchment.

I have to agree with this comment completely, which isn't easy for me to say. I'm 5 months pregnant and it's a real pain in the neck that my loving fiance (soon to be loving father) has to actually apply for guardianship. Unfortunately, there are too many cases as Peared listed above to say they should have equal rights, given the circumstances.

eth0_

Damn right they should, a father is just as important to a child as its mother.
Anyone who thinks otherwise is being arrogant.

Jules

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

In pregnancy no, after birth 50/50...

Why not in pregnancy?

Ickle Magoo

I don't think a man has a right to a woman's body & what happens to it...I was thinking about a man demanding she have an abortion...

Gordon

Equal rights until proven otherwise. Innocent until proven guilty. For both the mother and father.

doonothing

Jesus, I would gladly carry my child to term in my womb if i had one, but the fact that I physically and biologically cannot means I have less of a right to raise my child?

I completely understand the attachment a woman gains (sorry, MIGHT gain) when pregnant, but being male disqualifies me from equal rights as a parent because I can't become similarly attached (even though my attachment might be much more profound than the mother's)?

And, because some men abandon their children, I shoudl be denied my rights as a parent? It doesn't make one iota of sense that I, or any man (or any woman), should suffer because of the mistakes of others.

Peared

See I dont think men should be denied the same rights. I just dont think those rights should be automatic. There are too many exceptions and too many cases where this would not be appropriate to make it a blanket ruling. Of course loving fathers should have equal rights regarding their children. My point is just that if its automatic then the assholes out there, and, you know, there are quite a lot of them, automatically get a say in a childs life that really, they shouldnt have. If it comes down to biology then those automatic rights include rapists, doners, one night stands, men who desert and come back etc.

Agent Smith

i can say this, with out conviction.

It makes me sick that a father can not, and does not, have the same rights a father has, when the couple is unmarried.

Peared

agent smith wrote: »

i can say this, with out conviction.

It makes me sick that a father can not, and does not, have the same rights a father has, when the couple is unmarried.

Without conviction?

Also whats the story with that sig about Stargal, it don't sound very jokey.

doonothing

Peared wrote: »

See I dont think men should be denied the same rights. I just dont think those rights should be automatic. There are too many exceptions and too many cases where this would not be appropriate to make it a blanket ruling. Of course loving fathers should have equal rights regarding their children. My point is just that if its automatic then the assholes out there, and, you know, there are quite a lot of them, automatically get a say in a childs life that really, they shouldnt have. If it comes down to biology then those automatic rights include rapists, doners, one night stands, men who desert and come back etc.

Ok, I think we can all safely agree that no one thinks rapists should have automatic rights, so you can stop bringing that one up!
Why is a man more likely to be an "asshole", than a woman being a complete c*nt?
I agree though, a blanket automatic ruling is unfair in a lot of circumstances. Which is exactly why it is unfair that this automatic ruling is in place for women and not for men.
Many women really shouldn't have a say in a child's life, but this blanket ruling that you so vehemently deny fathers, is also what gives these women their say in the child's life.
It's complete double standards, with the exception of rapists (which we have agreed on), all of your points about men not getting equal rights can and do apply equally to women.

Peared

Yes and any parent that is a **** parent should be treated accordingly. But like it or not the woman carries the baby and is undeniably the mother. Who decides who the father is? What if he's not really? All I'm saying is there are so many exceptions and difficult cases that a one for all rule wouldnt work. If both parties agree then theres no problem. But think of the amount of single women having babies where things are not this simple.

Tricity Bendix

Peared wrote: »

Who decides who the father is?

Maury?

Seriously, just because a test is required to prove paternity does not mean fathers' rights should be in any way lessened.

legspin

Jules80 wrote: »

Sperm donation, no rights. .

If a woman asked me for a donation I would have to insist on my rights. If I'm good enough to be a sire I should be good enough to be a father as well (assuming my wife hadn't killed me first).