Communal Dish

PDD

Hi Folks,

Ive recently moved into a new apartment and no suprise the usual cowboy antics are afoot. The builder seems to have sold the cable rights of the development to Broadworks (by all accounts thus far a complete shower of wasters and a **** service) so Im restricted to only these via the cable system. Unfortunately where I am putting a dish on my balcony isnt an option as another building is in the way. The only solution is a communal dish on the roof, as there are only 8 apartments in the complex this could be a runner.

I was wondering if anyone here has had experience in convincing their management company to put in a communal dish and how it went. Also if they could recommend someone for installation as I will need to get a quote etc.

Just out of curiosity does anyone know if it would be possible to put both a satelite dish signal and lets say NTL MMDS signal on the same cable?

Ideally to reduce costs I would like to pipe the dish signal through the existing cabling but Im assuming that as we are restricted to Broadworks they own the cable.

Dave

spockety

As a matter of interest, what was the construction firm that built the development?

Does it begin with B and end with A?

PDD

Hi Sprokety,

I'd prefer not to name names at this stage and also Im not sure how boards.ie would react but your on the right track - only 4 more letters to go Why do you ask?

I was on to the management company and they have informed me that if I can get the consent of all the property owners than they will have a look at the possability of a communal dish. They also informed me that this could be prohibatively expensive that they recently received a quote from SKY for a 23 unit complex of 15K. I didnt get a breakdown of the details but I presume alot of that is the labour of running wiring. Do you need a special license/contract from SKY to have a communal dish?

Im wondering if a wireless signal sender would be possible, rather than running wiring it would be possible to just hook up a signal receiver like the ones Ive seen in Argos?

Dave

Ulsterman 1690

Surely if all eight apartment owners are up for it thats all you need.

Arent managment companies supposed to be owned by the residents ?

PDD

Management companies can be made up entirely of homeowners but typically builders will keep one apartment/house in a development so that they can retain the right to be director of the management company and thus creme the service fee money.

Not 100% sure Ulsterman, I would think so but the apartments are over commercial units and for some reason the apartments and commerical units are all lumped in with the housing estate as far as the management company is concerned so it looks like we'll never be free of the developers. I wouldnt be surprised if the managment company is connected to the builder.

My understanding is that if all the owners agreed and wanted to put in SKY we woul still have to foot the cost as the management company will not pay out of their "service fees"

watty

PDD wrote: »

Hi Sprokety,
They also informed me that this could be prohibatively expensive that they recently received a quote from SKY for a 23 unit complex of 15K. I didnt get a breakdown of the details but I presume alot of that is the labour of running wiring. Do you need a special license/contract from SKY to have a communal dish?

Im wondering if a wireless signal sender would be possible, rather than running wiring it would be possible to just hook up a signal receiver like the ones Ive seen in Argos?

Dave

The wiring /labour is main cost. But that does sound expensive. Without a survey I could be wrong.

An Argos/Maplin Video sender won't help.

Tony

I agree very expensive but there again its hard to say without a survey. Pity they did not put in a proper system during the build, much,much cheaper.

PDD

@Watty - I wasn't suggesting the one from Argos just using the same technology in place of co-ax wiring :rolleyes: I presume there are systems out there would be fit for the purpose.

@Tony - They did put a proper system and good wiring in during the build and then sold (or some other back door deal) it to Broadworks so they have denied all the owners use of that infrastructure.

Can I force the management company to disclose the details of the agreement with Broadworks (they claim they are not privy to the details), I would assume as an owner I am entitled to know.

Also does anyone know what obstacles if any there are to the sky signal being piped through the coax that is carrying the signal for Broadworks?

Dave

Tony

PDD wrote: »

@Tony - They did put a proper system and good wiring in during the build and then sold (or some other back door deal) it to Broadworks so they have denied all the owners use of that infrastructure.

By proper system I mean a terrestrial and satellite combined system with two feeds to each apartment in a trunk/star wire system so the customer has the choice of provider. I'd be amazed if that was installed by the builder.

Tony

PDD wrote: »

Also does anyone know what obstacles if any there are to the sky signal being piped through the coax that is carrying the signal for Broadworks?

Dave

It really depends on the design of the cable system in the building

PDD

Eh well in that case I guess they don't have a proper system installed then :-P My apartment only has one cable running to it.

With regard to the obstacles for utilizing the existing cabling as I dont know what the setup is lets start in the realm of possability and start there :-)

It is possible to run a sattelite feed and terrestrial feed on the same cable so lets take an optimistic view and say we could get feed the signal via the existing cabling, is it then just a case of hooking up the dish to the trunk box for the block? Does it have to go to the trunk box or can it be injected into the cabling at any point?

I forsee the management company using the current agreement with Broadworks as a barrier and thus far have eluded to this however the management company is the only way I can get the information I require (cabling setup, trunking for the apt block, access and locations etc). As an owner do I have the right to this information? Can I force the management company to disclose these details and of the agreement with Broadworks?

It is unlikely that Broadworks own the cabling in the building as I presume this would require them to either install it themselves or pay the builder for the work and cabling. How can I find this out and be 100% of it in the event that the management company decides to tell porkies?

Dave

PDD

Hi Folks,

Just a quick update, I managed to speak to someone in Sky and they informed me that they will offer to install Sky for free if there are 4 or more residents who wish to become new cutomers of Sky. The major stumbling block will that they must get approval from the management company who may reject it on the grounds of something as trivial as the asthetics despite Sky offering to run the cable along existing drainpipes and having camoflaged cable to blend with the exterior (e.g. brickwork). I can see approval from the management company being a problem (I think they dont want to rock the boat with the developer who is still on site for phaseII for fear of loosing the contract). I will keep ye up to date on how I get on.

Dave

bigpaddy2004

PDD wrote: »

Hi Sprokety,

They also informed me that this could be prohibatively expensive that they recently received a quote from SKY for a 23 unit complex of 15K. I didnt get a breakdown of the details but I presume alot of that is the labour of running wiring

Dave

That quote is just about right. All of the 'big guys' whom do this work for $ky charge in around the region of 600 euro per room. I have done a lot of Hotels & apartments where these guys have given quotes at the same sites always around the same price per room.

PDD

Well why would you engage a "big guy" contractor to do it for you when Sky offer to do it for free? They were obviously teling pies when they said they got Sky to do the quote, that or they misinterpreted a Sky agent as being Sky.

Hotels are completely different because Sky are not gaining new customers/revenue out of it which is the first criteria they have to have in order to proceed. I will keep you guys up to date with what happens.

bigpaddy2004

PDD wrote: »

Well why would you engage a "big guy" contractor to do it for you when Sky offer to do it for free? They were obviously teling pies when they said they got Sky to do the quote, that or they misinterpreted a Sky agent as being Sky.

Hotels are completely different because Sky are not gaining new customers/revenue out of it which is the first criteria they have to have in order to proceed. I will keep you guys up to date with what happens.

Sky may not do it for free for bigger apartment complexes.

Tony

PDD wrote: »

Hotels are completely different because Sky are not gaining new customers/revenue out of it which is the first criteria they have to have in order to proceed. I will keep you guys up to date with what happens.

Sky do gain revenue from hotels, they charge per room

PDD

@ Tony - Really? I thought they just paid a blanket subscription fee for the entire hotel or hotel chain etc.

@ Bigpaddy2004 - I think your right there, for the free installation I know there is a 3 story limit (as in the building must be 3 stories or less) and there must be less than 39 units or something like that.

Tony

PDD wrote: »

@ Tony - Really? I thought they just paid a blanket subscription fee for the entire hotel or hotel chain etc.

No they treat each business differently with the amount of rooms being one of the criteria used so the more rooms the more revenue.

MartyM

Hi Dave (PDD)

Who did you contact? Sky Homes or just Sky directly?

What they offered you sounds interesting, my apartment block is only 3 stories with 12 apartments.

My management company cannot complain about asthetics because they already have a communal dish from Sky Conway.

If its free from Sky, why they would choose Sky Conway is beyond me!!!

PDD

@MartyM - I contacted Sky and sorta got passed around internally I think. From what you've said about your apartment block then you should easily qualify and its free so long as they can pickup 4 new subscriptions (they might accept 4 switchers from Sky Conway). Id say Sky Conway could be an issue cos Sky might not want to interfere with a resellers operation plus the management company could block sky for many reasons unless they have all the owners up in arms and even at that they could be tied to a contract with Sky Conway as typically these cowboys give the builder/management company a nice kick-back for exclusive rights. Sure give it a go and you never know

Tony

PDD wrote: »

with Sky Conway as typically these cowboys give the builder/management company a nice kick-back for exclusive rights.

I always suspected this and I'm sure its an illegal transaction.

MartyM

PDD wrote: »

@MartyM - I contacted Sky and sorta got passed around internally I think. From what you've said about your apartment block then you should easily qualify and its free so long as they can pickup 4 new subscriptions (they might accept 4 switchers from Sky Conway). Id say Sky Conway could be an issue cos Sky might not want to interfere with a resellers operation plus the management company could block sky for many reasons unless they have all the owners up in arms and even at that they could be tied to a contract with Sky Conway as typically these cowboys give the builder/management company a nice kick-back for exclusive rights. Sure give it a go and you never know

Thanks PDD!

Just to clarify, when you say free what exactly does this mean?

I assume each individual in the apartment block will still pay the 45 euro installation fee and the free part is installing a communal dish for an apartment block?, which normally would have quite a high cost associated with it?

Thanks!

watty

I'd imagine so.

The high cost is only the cabling. The per-user cost of the rest is about 30 to 50 Euro per person for hardware. Which compared to an unshared quad LNB and Dish, is really cheaper given dish mount & alignement for everyone is same time & effort as dishes per person.

If an apartment block is properly cabled for terrestrial, Satellite, CAT5, cable and fibre the communal system is very cheap indeed.

MartyM

watty wrote: »

If an apartment block is properly cabled for terrestrial, Satellite, CAT5, cable and fibre the communal system is very cheap indeed.

Sounds good, our apartments are all pre-cabled with "smarthomes" technology...whatever that really means!!!

However, I think Sky Conway are claiming "ownership" of whatever cables are required for the communal dish (2 LNB cables per apartment i assume), so this could be our only problem!!

spockety

Sorry to drag up an old argument that's been flogged to death here before... but..

As far as the EC are concerned, everyone in the EU has the RIGHT to receive satellite TV. Your management company/agency cannot throw arguments back at you about cable exclusivity, or even aesthetics surrounding dishes etc., in an attempt to prevent you from receiving sat TV.

PDD

@MartyM - Its unlikely that SkyConway own the cables unless they installed it themselves, they have prob paid for exclusive rights or something. If I were in your positon I would be trying to force the management company to prove that SkyConway own the cable rather than take their word. I think the "smarthomes" technology could mean the cabling but more importantly some well thought out trunking, I doubt very much SkyConway can claim ownership to this and your managemnt company should be free to use it as they see fit. As an aside Sky will run the cables externally and will comoflage them via running them behind drain pipes and using coloured cables for brickwork etc to minimise the asthetic impact thus negating a management companys basis for denying them permission to install it.

@spockety - Yep very much aware of this but as Ive said I dont have the funds to fight it legally.

bb27

watty wrote: »

I'd imagine so.

The high cost is only the cabling. The per-user cost of the rest is about 30 to 50 Euro per person for hardware. Which compared to an unshared quad LNB and Dish, is really cheaper given dish mount & alignement for everyone is same time & effort as dishes per person.

If an apartment block is properly cabled for terrestrial, Satellite, CAT5, cable and fibre the communal system is very cheap indeed.

Hi Watty,
I'm in a complex where we're wired with Cat 5e cabling. Is this the one which makes it easy to run a feed on a communal sky dish? What do you mean by "cable & fibre"?
On the subject, don't know if anyone has contacted the Competition Authority but they are having a good look at these monopoly agreements within complexes. I know plenty of people in our complex have been onto them. I know they've been getting lots of complaints from all areas but no harm in keeping the pressure on.
Suggest you ping sb@tca.ie and email telling of your particular situation, her name's Sandra Brennan and she's the one looking into it!

bigpaddy2004

Cat5 cable will be no use for a regular communal tv system. Its normally used by companies like Magnet Networks whom install their own IPTV decoders and charge a monthly subscription.

bb27

Thanks for that, our apartments are wired with CAT 5 wiring, which a crowd of shams called Homevision are trying (but ultimately failing) to provide a decent service through.
We're looking to get rid (pending understanding the nature of their monopolistic agreement with developer!) of them and do something with NTL or SKY but were hoping that the existing wiring would be of use.
Any suggestions?

bigpaddy2004

Unless there is also ct100 running back from each apartment to a central location the same as the Cat5 I believe this will be a bigger job than you think.
There is communal systems out there which use Cat5 but then pricing runs into 10's of thousands for a complete system as opposed to a few thousand for a regular headend.