3 Steps to Heaven...

Splendour

I attended funeral today; very sad my brothers friend aged only 38 died very suddenly. It was a Catholic funeral and though I was a practicing Catholic for most of my life, I was totally confused by what the priest said today.(Funny how I never thought about these things before,acceptance isn't always good :rolleyes: )

Anyway, at one point the priest said that because ***** had been baptised, it was a given he would go to heaven. Then he mentioned the fact that because ***** was such a good person (this very very true, a nicer more obliging guy you couldn't meet), he was in heaven with Jesus. He then prayed for **** later in the mass saying he needed our prayers.

Now, I'm not out to 'Catholic bash', (s'funnny actually, one of my earliest memories of this guy was at my bro's 21st and I was talking about my Christian faith to him...), but I seriously would like to know from a Catholic viewpoint how a Catholic makes it to heaven?

kelly1

Splendour wrote: »

I attended funeral today; very sad my brothers friend aged only 38 died very suddenly. It was a Catholic funeral and though I was a practicing Catholic for most of my life, I was totally confused by what the priest said today.(Funny how I never thought about these things before,acceptance isn't always good :rolleyes: )

Anyway, at one point the priest said that because ***** had been baptised, it was a given he would go to heaven. Then he mentioned the fact that because ***** was such a good person (this very very true, a nicer more obliging guy you couldn't meet), he was in heaven with Jesus. He then prayed for **** later in the mass saying he needed our prayers.

Now, I'm not out to 'Catholic bash', (s'funnny actually, one of my earliest memories of this guy was at my bro's 21st and I was talking about my Christian faith to him...), but I seriously would like to know from a Catholic viewpoint how a Catholic makes it to heaven?

Interesting. That priest needs to go back to the seminary and read the catechism! It used to be all hellfire and brimstone in Ireland but now the pendulum has swing he other way. It needs to swing back to the middle I think!

Baptism is no guarantee of salvation and in fact there is no guarantee of salvation while we are alive on this earth. Baptism does erase original and actual sin from the soul by the action of the Holy Spirit but We need to persevere in faith, doing God's will till we take our last dying breath. Salvation can be lost in an instant by just one mortal sin.

Matthew 10:22 And you shall be hated by all men for my name's sake: but he that shall persevere unto the end, he shall be saved.

The priest also contradicted himself by saying that s/he was in Heaven and that he needed our prayers. If this person were in Purgatory, yes they would need prayers, but not if s/he were in Heaven.

The bottom line is that it's the state of our soul at the moment of death that determines our fate. If we die in a state of grace, will ultimately go to Heaven (possibly/probably via Purgarory). The soul that dies in mortal sin, i.e. without sanctifying grace is bound for Hell.

And that's the Catholic viewpoint on it.

God bless,
Noel.

Splendour

kelly1 wrote: »

Interesting. That priest needs to go back to the seminary and read the catechism! It used to be all hellfire and brimstone in Ireland but now the pendulum has swing he other way. It needs to swing back to the middle I think!

Baptism is no guarantee of salvation and in fact there is no guarantee of salvation while we are alive on this earth. Baptism does erase original and actual sin from the soul by the action of the Holy Spirit but We need to persevere in faith, doing God's will till we take our last dying breath. Salvation can be lost in an instant by just one mortal sin.

Matthew 10:22 And you shall be hated by all men for my name's sake: but he that shall persevere unto the end, he shall be saved.

The priest also contradicted himself by saying that s/he was in Heaven and that he needed our prayers. If this person were in Purgatory, yes they would need prayers, but not if s/he were in Heaven.

The bottom line is that it's the state of our soul at the moment of death that determines our fate. If we die in a state of grace, will ultimately go to Heaven (possibly/probably via Purgarory). The soul that dies in mortal sin, i.e. without sanctifying grace is bound for Hell.

And that's the Catholic viewpoint on it.

God bless,
Noel.

Hi Noel,thanks for the reply.
Ok,this is what I'm reading here is this: Water baptism wipes the slate clean. Then a person does their best to not sin(but inevidently will) and at the time of death if they haven't commmited a 'mortal' sin, they get to heaven. (Correct me if I'm wrong...)


Another point, how does any priest know who is and isn't bound for heaven?
The priest at any Catholic funeral I've ever attended always refer to the fact that the deceased is in heaven. How can a priest know if a person has died with or without sanctifying grace?And I've never heard mention of anyone passed on to purgatory. Are they just being PC? (I'm being serious here)

BTW, could you define mortal sin please

BrianCalgary

Lets keep this thread as a discussion of the Roman Catholic viewpoint only until further notice from the OP.

Thanks Gents.

PDN

Splendour wrote: »

Another point, how does any priest know who is and isn't bound for heaven?
The priest at any Catholic funeral I've ever attended always refer to the fact that the deceased is in heaven. How can a priest know if a person has died with or without sanctifying grace?And I've never heard mention of anyone passed on to purgatory. Are they just being PC? (I'm being serious here)

Presumably the fact that clergy and people pray for the dead person (including the last Pope) would indicate that they don't believe they are in heaven yet.

kelly1

Splendour wrote: »

Hi Noel,thanks for the reply.
Ok,this is what I'm reading here is this: Water baptism wipes the slate clean. Then a person does their best to not sin(but inevidently will) and at the time of death if they haven't commmited a 'mortal' sin, they get to heaven. (Correct me if I'm wrong...)

The Catholic Church considers baptism to be a sacrament and as a sacrament it conveys grace. This is sanctifying grace which gives the soul divine life and makes us children of God. Mortal sin kills grace in the soul but this grace can be restored through confession and absolution. So it's really the state of the soul at the point of death that determines our eternal destiny. Without grace in our souls, life and union with God is impossible and the soul is hideous in the sight of God and is only fit for Hell.

Splendour wrote: »

Another point, how does any priest know who is and isn't bound for heaven? The priest at any Catholic funeral I've ever attended always refer to the fact that the deceased is in heaven. How can a priest know if a person has died with or without sanctifying grace?And I've never heard mention of anyone passed on to purgatory. Are they just being PC? (I'm being serious here)

If the person received the sacraments of the Church before dying (confession/abolution and/or last rites) there's a very, very good change they're Heaven bound unless they commited a mortal sin before dying. If for example the person rarely went to Mass and confession etc, the priest has no idea where the soul has gone and it would be wrong to say that that the person is surely in Heaven.

It's unfortunate that priests rarely mention Hell/Purgatory as if they didn't exist. I can only end in the loss of more souls by making people complacent. I suppose it's down to lack of courage to speak the truth in case someone might be offended. So yes I think it's another example of PCness.

Splendour wrote: »

BTW, could you define mortal sin please

Rather than give my own definition, I'll quote the catechism:

1855 Mortal sin destroys charity in the heart of man by a grave violation of God's law; it turns man away from God, who is his ultimate end and his beatitude, by preferring an inferior good to him. Venial sin allows charity to subsist, even though it offends and wounds it. 1856 Mortal sin, by attacking the vital principle within us - that is, charity - necessitates a new initiative of God's mercy and a conversion of heart which is normally accomplished within the setting of the sacrament of reconciliation. 1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent. 1858 Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer of Jesus to the rich young man: "Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and your mother."132 The gravity of sins is more or less great: murder is graver than theft. One must also take into account who is wronged: violence against parents is in itself graver than violence against a stranger. 1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God's law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart133 do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.


1 John 5:17. All iniquity is sin. And there is a sin unto death.


God bless,
Noel.

kelly1

PDN wrote: »

Presumably the fact that clergy and people pray for the dead person (including the last Pope) would indicate that they don't believe they are in heaven yet.

Nobody on earth knows where the soul is and it would be wrong to presume. It's more charitable to pray for the dead regardless of where we hope they are. If the deceased is already in Heaven, our prayers can help liberate other souls. And if the deceased are in Purgatory, their time will be shortened. But the Mass is the most effective prayer of all because in it Christ offers His precious blood, passion and death to the Father in order to plead for mercy on our behalf.

God bless,
Noel.

Splendour

kelly1 wrote: »

The Catholic Church considers baptism to be a sacrament and as a sacrament it conveys grace. This is sanctifying grace which gives the soul divine life and makes us children of God. Mortal sin kills grace in the soul but this grace can be restored through confession and absolution. So it's really the state of the soul at the point of death that determines our eternal destiny. Without grace in our souls, life and union with God is impossible and the soul is hideous in the sight of God and is only fit for Hell.

If the person received the sacraments of the Church before dying (confession/abolution and/or last rites) there's a very, very good change they're Heaven bound unless they commited a mortal sin before dying. If for example the person rarely went to Mass and confession etc, the priest has no idea where the soul has gone and it would be wrong to say that that the person is surely in Heaven.

So grace fluctuates according to ones behaviour then?

If someone commits a mortal sin (but not a venial one)before dying,and don't receive last rites then are they hell bound?

kelly1

Splendour wrote: »

So grace fluctuates according to ones behaviour then?

I wouldn't have said fluctuate, but "sanctifing grace" can be destroyed by grave sin. There is also "actual grace" and I suppose this fluctuates depending on how much we sin or how much we do God's will.

Splendour wrote: »

If someone commits a mortal sin (but not a venial one)before dying,and don't receive last rites then are they hell bound?

I don't know why you say "but not a venial", but yes mortal kills charity in the soul making love of God impossible. Life with God is only possible for the soul that has sanctifying grace. It's what makes us just before God. This implies that it's not our own merit that makes us just.

God bless,
Noel.