The Sunday Times, Page 5.

Genghiz Cohen

My dad spotted this article in The Sunday Times today, it talks about Gardai trying to restrict the importation of replica firearms. Scan included.

Hivemind187

You'd think I have nothing better to do than to deal with this kind of thing.

At least the claims, though spruious, arent foaming-at-the-mouth-crazy like we normally deal with.

I'll put together a response and have it reaady by the morning.

(I would like to point out to the print media bods who read this board that because of you lot I havent had a day off in the past 5 weeks - not happy :mad:)

kdouglas

For once an article that did a little bit of research, fair play to the lads at The Sunday Times, the article is generally ok, however one major point which is incorrect:

Some airsoft rifles are exact replicas of military weapons, although enthusiasts argue that they do not look real and therefore are of no use to criminals

not sure what enthusiasts they spoke to, but i'm sure everyone here agress they do look real

smaller stuff:

Senior officers are pushing for the obligatory registration of those who purchase the weapons over the counter.

small point: not a weapon unless it's used in such a fashion....

however, is he talking about airsoft or starting pistols here? If starting pistols that's fine, if airsoft that's also fine, again, most people here agree that there should be a minimum of control put in place regarding the sale of airsoft

i'm sure there's more, but that's what i noticed straight off

Hivemind187

Actually, the article is fatally flawed for a glaring reason that you touched on Keith.

The writer begins by talking about "starting pistols" (aka blank firing pistols) and relates these to Airsoft as though they are on a par. If research was done, it wasnt done properly.

hoplite

Thats more of it now! The Sunday Times certainly has more gravitas than the tabloid rags. As KD points out at least it was not a hysterical article.

gandalf

To be fair it was a far more balanced article than the one from the rag last week. It would be an idea to chat to the Gardai in our ranks to see if they could suss out what the general feeling in the force is to Airsoft.

If they want us to register that will not be a big deal once they don't try to rape us with charges.

Hivemind187

gandalf wrote: »

To be fair it was a far more balanced article than the one from the rag last week. It would be an idea to chat to the Gardai in our ranks to see if they could suss out what the general feeling in the force is to Airsoft.

If they want us to register that will not be a big deal once they don't try to rape us with charges.

And wind up with the self-destructive nonsense they have in England? No dice!

Fact is that Airsoft equipment and devices are not recognised as firearms and attempting to ban it on "how it looks" is utterly ridiculous. As ridiculous as segregating white people and black people because they "look different".

gandalf

If its a choice between registration and straight banning I know which option I would take. If you want to hop up on a cross fair enough :rolleyes:

CrazyRabbit

I know we have a lot of stickies already, but might it be a good idea to have a press release/airsoft FAQ stickied? Something specifically aimed at journalists who visit this forum whilst researching for an article?

It seems this paper did some research.

Gatling

ok starts off with starting pistols go to airsoft end up with vests and tac gear ,also shots fired and no GSR found is a blank firing pistol not an airsoft ,as for a stickie what good will that do ,as for armour and tac vests they arent illegal so what ban camo and other militaria that wont stop gang culture ,i dont agree with over the counter sales of airsoft unless some kind of register requirement is brought in

Hivemind187

The old press release is sticked, its part of the application form sitcky.

How many copies do you want?

Genghiz Cohen

Maybe a 'Media Researchers' Sticky?

kdouglas

lads lads lads, no more stickies, we've enough as it is, soon we'll need a subforum just for the stickies

anyway, as pointed out, despite being a reasonably balanced article by comparison to the usual stuff, it still doesn't know what it's supposed to be about, is it starting pistols? blank firers? airsoft? replica's? bullet proof vests?

it seems largely that although this article was researched for a change, there is still not a distinction in the author's mind as to the fact that airsoft and starting pistols/blank firers/bullet proof vests all fall into different categories

conor-mr2

I was coming on here to post just that Id seen this.

As mentioned already, the Times is no gladrag paper and this is more worrying when you see this and hear about senior gardai wanting to ban them.

ED E

Much better than those toilet rolls before it but still, as above mentiones, flawed. Any member of the public with no knowledge of firearms, starting pistols or airsoft might well beleive airsoft uses gunpowder! Do you think they will print/mention your response hive?

Lethal.

Hivemind187

I doubt very much that they will print the response. Its unfortunate but its true.

Also, I'm a little concerned (from a journo's perspective) how easy it is to claim "Gardai said this" and "Gardai said that" without specifying which Garda said it. Essentially, these claims ammoun t to nothing without citation.

Masada

the article is full of cr*p based on the reasons mentioned above, but as an example of how pointless it is, take the bullet proof jackets part, who in this world would be in danger of injury from a bullet proof vest? unless your beaten to death with one it poses no risk to anyone, I know that some criminals wear them for protection but thats all they are, protection, why they should be banned is completely beyond me even though i have no need whatsoever for one but its a technology that has been developed to save your life if ever the situation arose where you find yourself being shot.,
even though the article is better writen than the last ones its still bull.,

defenderdude

Conor-Mr2 wrote: »

I was coming on here to post just that Id seen this.

As mentioned already, the Times is no gladrag paper and this is more worrying when you see this and hear about senior gardai wanting to ban them.

I'm not trying to be pedantic but I dont think they mention BAN anywhere in the article. I think the Gardai are looking for restrictions on importation and obligatory registration for owners.

...mmm maybe it's that first then ban later:(:(

Alvin T. Grey

Ok, here is a question.
Is it time (post AGM) that the IAA approached the minister for justice etc, and either lobbied, or at least consulted on any potential changes in the law? An outright ban isn't going to work, no more then an outright ban on real steel would. However if we don't raise our voice first, then if and when a law is passed to regulate these then I fear that the only opinions satified may be the 'urinating adults in a post office' group.

Hivemind187

Alvin T. Grey wrote: »

Ok, here is a question.
Is it time (post AGM) that the IAA approached the minister for justice etc, and either lobbied, or at least consulted on any potential changes in the law? An outright ban isn't going to work, no more then an outright ban on real steel would. However if we don't raise our voice first, then if and when a law is passed to regulate these then I fear that the only opinions satified may be the 'urinating adults in a post office' group.

As many of you know there is a process to these things. We need to get the AGM out of the way first - then we can sort out letters and reports to ministers and TD's.

We are working on a report detailing all of the information we have on airsoft covering everything from the physics to the economics etc.

Remember, chances are that the players are not going to make an impact on the government - but businesses will. They pay tax, VAT, import & excise etc the money involved may not be much but it is a lot more difficult to explain away crushing a number of businesses than it is to remove some "uppity gun-nuts".

Cuddlesworth

vtec wrote: »

, but as an example of how pointless it is, take the bullet proof jackets part, who in this world would be in danger of injury from a bullet proof vest? unless your beaten to death with one it poses no risk to anyone, I know that some criminals wear them for protection but thats all they are, protection, why they should be banned is completely beyond me even though i have no need whatsoever for one but its a technology that has been developed to save your life if ever the situation arose where you find yourself being shot.,

As a gardai, facing a criminal with full body armour and anything from pistol upwards you are in a very bad situation. We have a very limited amount of firearms in the force and most will not penitrate body armour.

Interest in airsoft is becoming more and more negative, but I would prefer a irish VCRA then a all out ban.

Hivemind187

krazy_8s wrote: »

As a gardai, facing a criminal with full body armour and anything from pistol upwards you are in a very bad situation. We have a very limited amount of firearms in the force and most will not penitrate body armour.

Interest in airsoft is becoming more and more negative, but I would prefer a irish VCRA then a all out ban.

As has been said by my colleagues. If a Gardai is put in the position of having to make a decision about whether an object poses a threat or not the decision should always be to treat the situation as though the object is real.

I dont see the need for an Irish version of the VCRA, especially when the other options have not yet been explored i.e. the IAA's stated position that equipment only be sold over the counter by registered and authorised dealerships.

How does that strike you Krazy?

ED E

krazy_8s wrote: »

As a gardai, facing a criminal with full body armour and anything from pistol upwards you are in a very bad situation. We have a very limited amount of firearms in the force and most will not penitrate body armour.

Interest in airsoft is becoming more and more negative, but I would prefer a irish VCRA then a all out ban.

I can understand the whole point on body armour. Why the hell would you need it unless you were involved in criminal activity. I seriously apreciate the situation of An Garda Síochaná on this matter but the airsoft argument is ridiclous as why would you use a replica when the real deal is available so easily(unfortunately)?

Hivemind187

Lethal_Bullet wrote: »

I can understand the whole point on body armour. Why the hell would you need it unless you were involved in criminal activity. I seriously apreciate the situation of An Garda Síochaná on this matter but the airsoft argument is ridiclous as why would you use a replica when the real deal is available so easily(unfortunately)?

Bouncers, security personel, bodyguards and some teachers all wear PPE (personal protective equipment) due to the threat of being stabbed or shot.

As for the real steel, agreed lest we forget that idiot on Camden street last week.

Cuddlesworth

Hivemind187 wrote: »

As has been said by my colleagues. If a Gardai is put in the position of having to make a decision about whether an object poses a threat or not the decision should always be to treat the situation as though the object is real.

I think that one is obvious, but my point is that proper bodyarmour should be illegial for civillians. But that is not an argument for this forum.

Hivemind187 wrote: »

I dont see the need for an Irish version of the VCRA, especially when the other options have not yet been explored i.e. the IAA's stated position that equipment only be sold over the counter by registered and authorised dealerships.

The irish version does not have to be the same, but some of the ideas of the VCRA need to be applied here. Registration of users and a list of weapons is what I would prefer, on top of sales limited to registered dealerships.

Hivemind187 wrote: »

How does that strike you Krazy?

We live longer every year, but campain issues involving healthcare come up tops. We have less crime every year, but campain issues involving crime comes up tops every year. Politics seems to me to be a race to see who can hop on the bandwagon quick enough. Facts and figures with no backing and half truths rule the process. And when Airsoft takes centre stage don't expect things to go our way, because the lowest common denominator will be appealed to. And thats the little ould dear in her perfect sitting room scared of what might happen and the middle aged couple who care deeply for what can happen to their kids, but care little about what their kids actually do.

Masada

I understand that it may be an obsticle for the gardai if criminals have body armour but lets be honest here, when was the last time there was a stand off with the cops Vs the gangs? the cops will win out without a doubt due to sheer numbers and equipment over the lesser equipped criminals and the gangs know that so they know better than to take on the cops in a gun fight, and even more so the cop should be a lot more worried by the gun the criminal has rather than the vest, being a gaurd you will know that regular gaurds are told not to take on a criminal who has a gun and to wait for an armed unit.,

Last case i can think of was the 2 guys in the post office in ballbrigan (i think) and it is still under question weather they actually chose to fight the garda or if they were shot unlawfully.,
There has been a lot of cases, including one only last week where a pub door man was killed for refusing members of different gangs and this prooves that it is not only the gardai and the criminals that benefit fom the protection these vests offer, in my opinion the writers intention in the article was obviously to associate the sport with criminal acts and it very obvious that an airsoft gun cant cause anybody an injury and they there are many other items that will have the same "fear factor" if they were used to threaten someone but are perfectly legal like airsoft.
My nephew has a toy gun that was bought from smyths toy store and it is a very convincing gun, its along the lines of a 357magnum and it is just as capable of being used by a criminal for whatever they chose to do with it.,

Alvin T. Grey

krazy_8s wrote: »

The irish version does not have to be the same, but some of the ideas of the VCRA need to be applied here. Registration of users and a list of weapons is what I would prefer, on top of sales limited to registered dealerships.

Quick question;
How would you suggest that the Garda kept track of which marker was which?

Lemming

Regards the VCRA, I should like to point out that the act is a political tool, not a practical tool. Anyone calling for it is pretty much doing the band-wagon jumping that politicians are so renowned for since it [the act] does very little to address anything of practical note regarding criminal activity.

Miscreant

The very fact that Airsoft looks like real steel is at the heart of the matter. Just the other day I had someone in work tell me about the "disgraceful arms dealing" that went on at T4BB and how these things should be banned for the very reasons being mentioned in every single newspaper article. When I mentioned that I had several Airsofts in my house the look of horror on peoples' faces at the lunch table was unreal.

I work for a financial institution and some of the people I know have actually stared down the business end of a gun and been genuinely terrified. The gun may or may not have been real but the terror and anxiety certainly was. I figure that if a criminal is going to use an airsoft tagger in this way then the full force of the law should be brought down to bear on them just as it would if they had used the real steel, a sledge hammer, knife, screwdriver or whatever.

This argument will go on and on and will not be solved conclusively because that is the very nature of society. You have the people who are afraid of things but educate themselves to better deal with the fear or understand the issue and then you have those that are afraid and will not want to know anything other than their fear. This is a reality that will not go away no matter how much information you pump to the public. The hardest thing to do is to combat a fear (rational or irrational) that is ingrained in someone's psyche. This country has always had a fear of guns and you will always have people who will play to this fear for their own personal gains. Airsoft is just a nice, easy target right now.

The whole body armour thing is just a red herring. In the USA you can buy body armour privately but if you have a criminal record it is actually illegal for you to own it at all!

Perhaps something like the VCRA will do some good over here instead of an outright ban. I think it would be a pity if Airsoft was squashed while still technically in its infancy here. I am looking forward to the IAA AGM on the 9th so we can see and hear what is going to be said to the Media and Politicians on our behalf. We all need to step up now and as many of us as possible need to become members of the IAA in order for it to have any credibility at all. The guys in the IAA have been doing a great job and we all need to be behind them and show a united front before this all gets out of hand and our sport is buried by an all out ban.

Sorry for the rant guys but the last two weeks worth of Airsoft articles have really made me think. If anything in this post if out of line give me a shout and I will remove it.

0ubliette

i love how it says 'similar to those used in gangland killings'.
Now, i may not be up on my gangland criminality, but i kinda have a hard time picturing scumbags robbing their local post offices with G36's, MP5's and a dert eagle or two :rolleyes:
When JG or CA bring out a clone of a sawn off shotgun and a pistol with electrical tape wrapped around the grip, then you can go balls out trying to ban those

Dave!

heh, good point

The article is more balanced than other ones (and they even used the term 'airsoft'), but there's obviously still some falacies in it.

ED E

Lemming wrote: »

Regards the VCRA, I should like to point out that the act is a political tool, not a practical tool. Anyone calling for it is pretty much doing the band-wagon jumping that politicians are so renowned for since it [the act] does very little to address anything of practical note regarding criminal activity.

Agreed. Politicians can say that they legally restricted them and Players can continue playing. If somebody really wanted one they dont have to be kept securely so stealing one would not be a problem.


I have to say Shame On Ye! For the last few weeks Dar has had a very expensive setup out in the HRTA office though very few have registered. There were a good few on sat but comon lads. Is it that hard to bring a drivers licence(most of you should have one in the car anyway!)? I beleive its gone now though. Commendation on effort though Dar.

Lethal.

Mr.Magoo2007

i did try and register last sat however the laptop died just after he scaned my licence

Masada

if equipment is needed i can bring a laptop and scanner/printer ect, i have a power inverter aswell incase theres no power available at HRTA, it works off the car battery.,

SniperSight

Genghiz Cohen wrote: »

"Detectives suspect that the weapons, used by enthusiasts to play war games, are also being used in armed robberies.

I cant help but feel angry about the fact they mention their use by airsoft enthusiasts, but because a few gang members may have used them, we should all have to suffer.......
Here an interesting spin...... Gang members use cars and motorbikes to perform drive-bys, I guess the sale of cars will have to be seriously restricted or maybe banned for all the normal people!!!

If a criminal wants to rob a bank or house, you can bet your bottom dollar they dont need to have access to an airsoft rifle to do it. Lets remember the actual fatalities that have occured in gangland fighting, real guns were used. So if they cant get an airsoft rifle, they'll just go to their secret storehouse and pull out the sawn-off or revolver and REALLY put someone at risk.

Lay off airsoft and focus on the scumbags with the REAL weapons.

Leupold

I Do not think it would be wise to encourage any legislation to control airsofts.Whatever you appear to offer will be taken as a starting point for negotiation and you will end up where you do not want to be. The best starting point is to be firm about no legislation. This will tell the bandwagon hopping variety of politician that they would have a battle on their hands to bring in new legislation. If you offer up registration, similar to the UK you will end up in a worse position than the UK is now. Surely this is common sense?

ED E

He has a point...

Masada

Leupold wrote: »

I Do not think it would be wise to encourage any legislation to control airsofts.Whatever you appear to offer will be taken as a starting point for negotiation and you will end up where you do not want to be. The best starting point is to be firm about no legislation. This will tell the bandwagon hopping variety of politician that they would have a battle on their hands to bring in new legislation. If you offer up registration, similar to the UK you will end up in a worse position than the UK is now. Surely this is common sense?

yeah I agree, it also inplies these items are dangerous and need regulation which in turn makes those who know nothing about airsoft turn against them thinking that they are something to fear.,

iceage

good point, and sound reasoning..

SniperSight

Your defo right there, they arent dangerous, so why compromise airsoft's integrity.

Alvin T. Grey

Leupold wrote: »

I Do not think it would be wise to encourage any legislation to control airsofts.Whatever you appear to offer will be taken as a starting point for negotiation and you will end up where you do not want to be. The best starting point is to be firm about no legislation. This will tell the bandwagon hopping variety of politician that they would have a battle on their hands to bring in new legislation. If you offer up registration, similar to the UK you will end up in a worse position than the UK is now. Surely this is common sense?

Legislation will happen if this current bandwagon rolls on. Depend on it. And as much as we would like to believe that folding our arms and stamping our feet will be effective, I'm afraid we, as a sport, are just not that important. Certainly when compared to the Joe Duffy listeners lobby.
So when it comes to overseeing the sport and the relevant legislation;
Do you want to be outside the issue pissing in, or inside pissing out?

Leupold

Legislation is not a foregone conclusion. The Government can not introduce new legislation governing airsofts so soon after the CJA became law without implying that they got it wrong so there will be no rush about this unless the negative publicity really picks up. The other point about pissing from inside is that the distance pissed depends on the height of the person pissing and the elasticity of their bladder, so back to my point about where you start negotiation from which means your post and position imply weakness.

Alvin T. Grey

Leupold wrote: »

Legislation is not a foregone conclusion. The Government can not introduce new legislation governing airsofts so soon after the CJA became law without implying that they got it wrong so there will be no rush about this unless the negative publicity really picks up. The other point about pissing from inside is that the distance pissed depends on the height of the person pissing and the elasticity of their bladder, so back to my point about where you start negotiation from which means your post and position imply weakness.

I thought that too. But you'ld be amazed at how fast winds change.
Secondly. As a sport.

We. Are. Weak.

cherubaul

0ubliette wrote: »

i love how it says 'similar to those used in gangland killings'.
Now, i may not be up on my gangland criminality, but i kinda have a hard time picturing scumbags robbing their local post offices with G36's, MP5's and a dert eagle or two :rolleyes:
When JG or CA bring out a clone of a sawn off shotgun and a pistol with electrical tape wrapped around the grip, then you can go balls out trying to ban those

Sorry mate but military grade weaponry has been a staple of both crimminal and terrorist organisations for quite some time. remember the fruit cake walking down camden street with the AK-47. Add to that 2 L85 (SA80s) were seized in limerick earlier in the year and lets not forget again in limerick the gang member who had the military grade bolt action sniper rifle which was not available on the civillian market.

Again its not airsoft that is the problemits the gang culture itself. The people have grown complacent once more and are willing to let the actions of criminals rule over their lives. The government can't be bothered to lift a finger but yet popularity is waning so need to be seen to do something. Thus the group of people who seem threatening to the general populace are used as a placebo to appease the masses while the real issue goes unresolved. If there was no black market arms trade in this country we would have a situation where airsoft would be a non issue as real steel killing would not exist. but it is the fact that the government of this country are either unwilling or unable to protect its populace that we are given a stigma of fear and suspicion and ultimately made the scapegoats for their own inadequecies. In japan if memory serves me correctly if a gun shaped object is produced in a threatening manner it is assumed to be airsoft, the people of that country are more scared of knives than guns.

I do apologise for the length of the above but i felt it necessary to vent.

lambchops

Worryingly enough I spotted the same article verbatim in yesterday's "Irish" Sun. Only thing they bothered changing was the heading. Unfortunately that tabloid rag has more readership on average than the Sunday Times and thusly has more of a chance to catch the eye of some "Won't someone think of the children zealot".

Nick_oliveri

Seen the same article lambchops. If i can scan it i will, papers in work.

bullets

cherubaul wrote: »

Sorry mate but military grade weaponry has been a staple of both crimminal and terrorist organisations for quite some time. remember the fruit cake walking down camden street with the AK-47. Add to that 2 L85 (SA80s) were seized in limerick earlier in the year and lets not forget again in limerick the gang member who had the military grade bolt action sniper rifle which was not available on the civillian market.

Criminal Gangs in Limerick defo use Military Grade firearms along with
a few robbed legally owned firearms. Real steel shooters tend to
get the brunt of the media attention but more and more airsoft products
seem to be included too.

I'm collecting news stories that feature Real Steel and Airsoft at the
moment so if anyone has got any scans let me know.

If you have a scan or reference about the SA-80's let me know
as I would be interested to see it. Do you mean airsoft SA-80's
were seized or do you mean real steel ones?
Never seen anything in the Press about SA80's in Limerick.
But I have seen in the papers Scorpion SMG's Ingrams Uzi's etc.

The Military grade bolt action sniper rifle you mention I dont recall??
Maybe you mean the Bolt Action Remington 700 that was seized during
the summer? which is one of the most common civilian rifle about as
well as being used in the USA in the Sniper Role.

I do have a scan of a Limerick Leader article that I complained about
where the Cops in court got their facts all wrong and the paper
was legally obliged to report what was said in court regardles of if
the information was true or not.
It was a battered rusty old rifle that would probably explode if some dum-ass was stupid enough to try and fire it and it was re-covered during a search was reported as a Sniper Rifle "pump action" that
was worth 10 grand!!!!!!!!! when in FACT you could buy for 750 Euro new!

~B

AirsoftEire.com

lambchops wrote: »

Worryingly enough I spotted the same article verbatim in yesterday's "Irish" Sun. Only thing they bothered changing was the heading. Unfortunately that tabloid rag has more readership on average than the Sunday Times and thusly has more of a chance to catch the eye of some "Won't someone think of the children zealot".

The remark about gunpowder residue is almost laughable...

0ubliette

well if anything, cops should be thankful if thugs decide to use an airsoft gun in a hold up, at least noone would get hurt!!

kdouglas

that's pretty much word for word what was in the times, that was the star yes?

Hivemind: another editor to send the letter to

Hivemind187

kdouglas wrote: »

that's pretty much word for word what was in the times, that was the star yes?

Hivemind: another editor to send the letter to

I think it was done yesterday

We knew about this one that very morning (with thanks to Alvin T for the 8am call).

Thing is there isnt all that much that can be done about the cynical and lazy efforts of the Sun in this case. They have lifted a story verbatim but its actually quite common - hence the term "hack".

I wouldnt be too worried though folks since I have a feeling that the more rational newspapers may actually come around to our side in the end. At least in terms of "they're a sport - whats the big deal?"