Is this bad etiquette??

eddiehead

OK I might be overreacting but this is something that really annoys me in live tourneys.....


Lets say the player UTG announces raise, the player to his left immediately folds, so then the player to his left folds thinking the action is on him and so on. At this point the raiser hasn't announced how much he will raise but since the table has folded around to the big blind (while he was counting out a huge amount of chips to raise) he decides to double the blind, the big blind in turn folds aswell.

My question is this, is the initial folder(and i suppose everybody who folded behind him) wrong to do so before the player announces the amount of the raise as its basically giving him position allowing him to pick up the blinds relatively easily without having to get through an entire table??

CaptainNemo

topnutz wrote: »

OK I might be overreacting but this is something that really annoys me in live tourneys.....


Lets say the player UTG announces raise, the player to his left immediately folds, so then the player to his left folds thinking the action is on him and so on. At this point the raiser hasn't announced how much he will raise but since the table has folded around to the big blind (while he was counting out a huge amount of chips to raise) he decides to double the blind, the big blind in turn folds aswell.

My question is this, is the initial folder(and i suppose everybody who folded behind him) wrong to do so before the player announces the amount of the raise as its basically giving him position allowing him to pick up the blinds relatively easily without having to get through an entire table??

Don't see what's wrong with this. No one's acting out of turn.

Bandara

sounds perfect to me, no ones holding up the game with the stupid ten second dwell ups before they muck, while shaking their heads to themselves and looking into the distance in deep thought.

hatedajacks

Players shouldnt fold till he announces the amount. Not his fault!

5starpool

In this case, players should be warned to wait until the bet amount has been declared before acting for the very reason outlined above.

Russh

I've seen dealers stop guys folding before the raise amount is declared and in each case the player who is folding genuinely didn't realise what they were doing....Wouldn't feel that strongly about it....The raiser won't mind and the player folding isn't to bothered how much it is( they should be of course)....

kikiki

I seen this last week a player UTG announced raise, before he says what it is its folded to the button who was talking to another player. While this was going on the dealer was trying to get players to wait till amount being raised is said. Player on button looked up to see what was happening and said call. Player UTG then announces he is al in. Button is made call. He had 64o v kk.

RoundTower

in a PL/NL game the players should be told to wait and act in turn. With some exceptions, e.g. there are only two players left, or any raise would put you all in. I don't treat it too harshly though as everyone benefits from speeding up the game.

TheBlackThing

Funny, I was involved in a similar hand last night.
UTG announced raise, and I being next to act folded immediately, so did the next 2 players.
UTG then min raised and it was folded to him.
I was thinking about it afterwards and thought, I should have waited to hear the amount because he now had extra info on the hand.

So I suppose it probably is bad etiquette but I'm hardly one to preach on it.

strewelpeter

kikiki wrote: »

I seen this last week a player UTG announced raise, before he says what it is its folded to the button who was talking to another player. While this was going on the dealer was trying to get players to wait till amount being raised is said. Player on button looked up to see what was happening and said call. Player UTG then announces he is al in. Button is made call. He had 64o v kk.

That doesn't sound right.
Would button not have an argument for saying that as utg called raise and the action has come around to him without any declaration of an amount that he can assume a min raise?
Maybe not...anyway he prolly got what he deserved for calling anything with 46o while not paying attention.

kikiki

strewelpeter wrote: »

That doesn't sound right.
Would button not have an argument for saying that as utg called raise and the action has come around to him without any declaration of an amount that he can assume a min raise?
Maybe not...anyway he prolly got what he deserved for calling anything with 46o while not paying attention.

Like i said he wasn"t watching and the dealer was trying to point it out to him and rest of table that the amount wasn"t announced so its his own fault. Whats 5 seconds to hear a number or 2 words.

Ace2007

yea he shouldn't fold, as the raiser is gain extra information...

thechamp87

this p!sses me off so much when people do this. the action isn't on the next player until the bet amount is declared. essentially it is folding out of turn.

connie147

kikiki wrote: »

I seen this last week a player UTG announced raise, before he says what it is its folded to the button who was talking to another player. While this was going on the dealer was trying to get players to wait till amount being raised is said. Player on button looked up to see what was happening and said call. Player UTG then announces he is al in. Button is made call. He had 64o v kk.

I dont think I would rule here that he has to call. Look art it from the buttons point of view. He sees player after player folding to him, he sees no money in the pot except the blinds. Its really a dealer problem that its gone this far. Obviously I couldnt make an informed decision without hearing the dealers vertion of it, but I would probably rule that he leaves the BB in the pot and give him the option of calling the all-in. Right or wrong?

strewelpeter

connie147 wrote: »

I dont think I would rule here that he has to call. Look art it from the buttons point of view. He sees player after player folding to him, he sees no money in the pot except the blinds. Its really a dealer problem that its gone this far. Obviously I couldnt make an informed decision without hearing the dealers vertion of it, but I would probably rule that he leaves the BB in the pot and give him the option of calling the all-in. Right or wrong?

Could there ever be a ruling that the raisers failure to name an amount makes it a minraise?

smurph

This is one of the few things that annoy me...

When a player announces raise and your next to act after him, just wait until an amount is said and then fold, it appears to be happening more and more, It gives valuable information to the raiser, as he knows he has 2, maybe 3 players less to deal with.

eddiehead

So then it probably isnt a question of etiquette, more of common sense as a good player. If somebody wants to steal, the rest of the table should make it as difficult for him as possible while extracting as much info as possible at the same time. Id never rule against it or anything as it will never actually be the raisers fault, but i do see the dealers point if he chooses to halt the play until the amount is announced. This came up lastnight in my local and in fairness the fella who was raising all the time would say ''Raise''..........then about 6 weeks later he'd say how much, so it was getting fairly frustrating for the players to his left, still wrecks my head tho:mad:

RoundTower

there could be, but it would be a bad ruling.

RoundTower

topnutz wrote: »

So then it probably isnt a question of etiquette, more of common sense as a good player. If somebody wants to steal, the rest of the table should make it as difficult for him as possible while extracting as much info as possible at the same time. Id never rule against it or anything as it will never actually be the raisers fault, but i do see the dealers point if he chooses to halt the play until the amount is announced. This came up lastnight in my local and in fairness the fella who was raising all the time would say ''Raise''..........then about 6 weeks later he'd say how much, so it was getting fairly frustrating for the players to his left, still wrecks my head tho:mad:

yeah you should make it as difficult as possible for those clowns who are always raising, they make it impossible to play a proper game of poker as you never get to see a flop :mad:

smurph

smurph wrote: »

This is one of the few things that annoy me...

When a player announces raise and your next to act after him, just wait until an amount is said and then fold, it appears to be happening more and more, It gives valuable information to the raiser, as he knows he has 2, maybe 3 players less to deal with.

Yes it is happening an awful lot more then it used to and it gives the raiser an advantage so therefore it shouldn't be allowed. Just say the raiser is raising with A10 or some other mediocre hand in the middle of the table & its folded quickly to the button. He can decide to make the raise alot more then he initially planned to steal the blinds. I actually notice people taking alot longer while declaring their raise nowadays, maybe this is why ? Dunno

eddiehead

RoundTower wrote: »

yeah you should make it as difficult as possible for those clowns who are always raising, they make it impossible to play a proper game of poker as you never get to see a flop :mad:

Im not saying people should stop raising p/f, but at least force others to make that raise with very little info, so he has no opportunity to change his mind on the amount, which obv works to his advantage. Also, im not saying people should dwell for ages before making an inevitable fold, if your gona fold your gona fold, but at least wait your turn, thats all

JP Poker

connie147 wrote: »

I dont think I would rule here that he has to call. Look art it from the buttons point of view. He sees player after player folding to him, he sees no money in the pot except the blinds. Its really a dealer problem that its gone this far. Obviously I couldnt make an informed decision without hearing the dealers vertion of it, but I would probably rule that he leaves the BB in the pot and give him the option of calling the all-in. Right or wrong?

In the above case i would make the button call the all-in. As far as i'm concerned all players should be paying attention to the game. The only exception to this would be the button put in the amount for the BB before he said call.

Jesus Wept

topnutz wrote: »

OK I might be overreacting but this is something that really annoys me in live tourneys.....


Lets say the player UTG announces raise, the player to his left immediately folds, so then the player to his left folds thinking the action is on him and so on. At this point the raiser hasn't announced how much he will raise but since the table has folded around to the big blind (while he was counting out a huge amount of chips to raise) he decides to double the blind, the big blind in turn folds aswell.

My question is this, is the initial folder(and i suppose everybody who folded behind him) wrong to do so before the player announces the amount of the raise as its basically giving him position allowing him to pick up the blinds relatively easily without having to get through an entire table??

Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes


One of my pet peeves. It's wrong, wrong, wrong.

Players should stop doing it, and dealers/TD's should give warnings to stop it.

---

This has reminded me of something else that bugs me. It's similar to the OP's scenario.

The fact that it's possible on most (all?) poker sites to fold when you have the option to check.


The turn (or flop or river) is dealt

Player A acts first and opts to fold when he could check.

You are next to act and check, then then it's on Player C

Now Player C has one person to get through, he has info he shouldn't. If Player A doesn't have the option to fold when he could check, Player C
would and should have another person to worry about, someone that might call or even check-raise him.

5starpool

It also annoys me when someone says raise, counts out the chips in ones or twos, goes back for more, changes the colour of them, changes the amount, puts some back, looks around, then counts out more, and then put the chips in usually at the same time as declaring an amount that bears no resemblance to the amount they have just put in.

I know everyone is not as familiar with handling chips as I am, but mother of god how hard is it to do it relatively quickly? If you can't count, don't play the game.

Jesus Wept

5starpool wrote: »

It also annoys me when someone says raise, counts out the chips in ones or twos, goes back for more, changes the colour of them, changes the amount, puts some back, looks around, then counts out more, and then put the chips in usually at the same time as declaring an amount that bears no resemblance to the amount they have just put in.

I know everyone is not as familiar with handling chips as I am, but mother of god how hard is it to do it relatively quickly? If you can't count, don't play the game.

lol Dom. That reminds me of Howard Lederer in the full tilt game.

The whole 'look pensive and take 1-2 minutes before raising' thing.
Hurry up Led, we know you have f-all!

5starpool

n00b

connie147

JP Poker wrote: »

In the above case i would make the button call the all-in. As far as i'm concerned all players should be paying attention to the game. The only exception to this would be the button put in the amount for the BB before he said call.

I dont agree JP. Its this common sense thingy again. The button doesnt want to call the all-in,why should he. The raiser hasn't said all-in prior to the button saying "call". I think the dealer has a lot to answer for in the scenario given here. Why should we punish a player for a dealers shortcomings. I know the player is supposes to be watching whats happening,but in fairness,if he didnt hear utg say raise,whats he acting on? All players folding in turn to him,he sees no money in the pot except the blinds.He calls what he presumes is the BB,then utg wants to angleshoot with an all-in,and you feel we should facilitate utg's actions by making the button call? Sorry, but I dont agree.

goodbuddy

kikiki wrote: »

I seen this last week a player UTG announced raise, before he says what it is its folded to the button who was talking to another player. While this was going on the dealer was trying to get players to wait till amount being raised is said. Player on button looked up to see what was happening and said call. Player UTG then announces he is al in. Button is made call. He had 64o v kk.

I'll be yer best buddy

bohsman

connie147 wrote: »

I dont agree JP. Its this common sense thingy again. The button doesnt want to call the all-in,why should he. The raiser hasn't said all-in prior to the button saying "call". I think the dealer has a lot to answer for in the scenario given here. Why should we punish a player for a dealers shortcomings. I know the player is supposes to be watching whats happening,but in fairness,if he didnt hear utg say raise,whats he acting on? All players folding in turn to him,he sees no money in the pot except the blinds.He calls what he presumes is the BB,then utg wants to angleshoot with an all-in,and you feel we should facilitate utg's actions by making the button call? Sorry, but I dont agree.

Agreed.

mormank

i hate this too...if this is allowed why ever wait til ur turn to fold. if this is allowed then as soon as cards are dealt everyone with pure muck should just fold, then those who wanna see a flop depending on how much it should wait and see...you should NEVER fold until the bet amount is announced unless you are the last person in the hand bar the raiser

Flushdraw

The-Rigger wrote: »

This has reminded me of something else that bugs me. It's similar to the OP's scenario.

The fact that it's possible on most (all?) poker sites to fold when you have the option to check.


The turn (or flop or river) is dealt

Player A acts first and opts to fold when he could check.

You are next to act and check, then then it's on Player C

Now Player C has one person to get through, he has info he shouldn't. If Player A doesn't have the option to fold when he could check, Player C
would and should have another person to worry about, someone that might call or even check-raise him.

I've seen this happen a few times and you'd be surprised how many people fold after him because they think theres been a been a bet!

The-Rigger wrote: »

lol Dom. That reminds me of Howard Lederer in the full tilt game.

The whole 'look pensive and take 1-2 minutes before raising' thing.
Hurry up Led, we know you have f-all!

Yeah....i always knew he had nothing aswel :rolleyes:

Lazare

The-Rigger wrote: »

This has reminded me of something else that bugs me. It's similar to the OP's scenario.

The fact that it's possible on most (all?) poker sites to fold when you have the option to check.


The turn (or flop or river) is dealt

Player A acts first and opts to fold when he could check.

You are next to act and check, then then it's on Player C

Now Player C has one person to get through, he has info he shouldn't. If Player A doesn't have the option to fold when he could check, Player C
would and should have another person to worry about, someone that might call or even check-raise him.

I know this is frustrating but why should it be any different to live where there's no rule against open folding post flop.

Jesus Wept

Lazare wrote: »

I know this is frustrating but why should it be any different to live where there's no rule against open folding post flop.

Yes but I think there ought to be.

Live and online it should be changed.

Ok - so 6 people see a flop at 25-50 level, and 1 person open folds, it's not likely to affect things much, however with less people and/or in later levels it can and will.

I can't see any valid reason for allowing people to do it.

one ill cat

Does folding online not always happen in turn? I know you get the option to check the 'fold option' as soon as you see your cards, but surely those that act after you will only have the correct information available to them depending on their position at the table?

I agree with connie that players shouldn't be punished due to those UTG using underhand tactics. The dealer would therefore be ultimately responsible to keep things like this from happening, but equally as mature adults, that would prefer the game to be played in the manner it was intended, if this is happening we should be vocal. Make a sarcastic comment if someone tries it more than once, either to them, ie. "Is there a reason why you feel the need to pause for a break after announcing raise?" or equally to the person next to act, "It is ok to hear what they plan to raise by before chucking your cards".

To be honest, I've never seen this happen before as I've hardly ever played live, but from the stories on this thread I think it's quite underhand of the person pulling the stunt.