Relative to go to jail in France

legtostandon

A close relative in France was recently charged there with an assault from 15 years ago. He tells me that in France you have to prove your innocence rather than an accuser proving your guilt. This turned out to be rather hard to do and he got a jail term and a massive €15,000 atonement to the accuser - which he says was the plan of this person all along. Apparently this type of scam is happening a lot. He appealed this last week and will know the result at the end of December - best case scenario is a suspension but stilll has to pay the atonement. Worst case, at least a year in jail plus the fee.

I'm actually not sure if I believe this person is innocent because I don't know them that well despite them being a close relative but could be in a position to financially help them if I had to. Basically I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt. Blood is thicker etc... (No I don't think for a minute they're trying to scam me and naturally I'd verify the legal facts before giving over money)

My question is, is this true of French law and what if they can't pay the cost. Are we talking actual prison time here? Anyone hear of anything like this happening?

It's a bloody nightmare, regardless.

(Posted this on the legal forum but got jack).. I'm just getting it off my chest here.

biko

French law and Irish law both depend on EU law.
Having to prove your innocence seems incredulous to me. Both systems work more or less the same.

Of course, without real facts about the case it's hard to say what's what here.

Beruthiel

legtostandon wrote: »

]My question is, is this true of French law and what if they can't pay the cost. Are we talking actual prison time here?

We know nothing about french law and so all advice would be of no use to you.
Did he not get himself a french solicitor?
France isn't a third world country, I'm quite sure they have a pretty good legal system run fairly.

Saruman

The only thing i know about French law, is more along the lines of NEVER mess with the police there.... different breed all together and they take no crap.
To be honest, it sounds a lot like something you see in American movies where someone gets on the wrong side of the law in France..
I hope this guy has not seen too many movies
Seriously though, be careful. It does seem odd... then again, France does have the good samaritan law.... You can be punished for not helping in France, where as here you can be sued by the criminal if you so much as sneeze on them.

padser

I don't know the intricities of French law - however it is a completely different system to the Irish. The French use what they call a Civil Code for the vast majority of their laws and proceedures in this area. We use a precedent based approach. The differences are more pronounced in some area's then in others - and I have no idea of how they would apply to this case.

To say that French and Irish law both depend on EU law is a gross over simplification - and it's certainly not correct to assume that the laws are in any way harmonised in this area.

I doubt you will find anyone on this board with enough knowledge of French Torts to be able to give you any kind of a decent factual answer - if there is anyone you might find them in legal discussion, but read the charter first as that forum is VERY strict.

I would also be vary of anyone who gives you a one or two line answer - if anyone actually has a knowledge of the French system they will probably go to the trouble of providing a decent explaination of what they are saying.

With that proviso behind me I would point out that lay people often misinterpret things that are said to them - so for example your relative saying 'you have to prove your innocence'. That could mean that the case against him was particularly strong, and in practice he needed to come up with a bloody good defence - which could be intrepreted as 'prooving your innocence'.

legtostandon

He had a court appointed solicitor initially, who was useless, but for the appeal changed to a private one as a friend loaned him some money.

I find the idea that he has to prove innocence rediculous too but he insists that's the case. When they arrested him they had him for 2 days questioning him - this was last year and the trial/appeals been hanging over him since then. The French judicial system is very tough by all accounts. I'm all "well if your innocent you'll be ok". He's all - "It's not like that here" - although he said the judge sympathised with him but couldn't go against the allegations.

humanji

How did they find him after 15 years? And also, bare in mind that you are related so you're going to side with them, but they could actually be guilty.

legtostandon

Without going into too much detail, my relative came back into the accusers life indirectly through a friend.

The friend needed some professional work done, my relative suggested the accuser, knowing his old aquaintence did this kind of work. When that person found out the friend knew my relative..... all hell broke loose. Bitterness, sour grapes? Who knows! Would somebody send soemone to a person they assaulted, for help, 15 years later?

The judge questioned the 15 years of silence but French law seemingly doesn't care about the time period.

I accept that my relative could be guilty of something. It doesn't seem like I'll ever really know to be honest. Thats what really bugs me.

Dave!

Is your friend Irish? You should consider contacting the embassy in France and see what they can do.

Mr. Incognito

To be honest this sounds a lot of bull. I'm no expert on French law but under the statute of limitations here you have a limited time frame within which to bring an action. I'm unsure if France have a similar system but I would think so.

The difference in the jurisdictions is that they have a civil law code and we have a common law code.

I wikipedia'ed this and got this article that looks like it has good references

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_law

Also

http://195.83.177.9/code/index.phtml?lang=uk

is the official site. I'll have a look for statue of limitations and get back to you but 15 years sounds a bit long to me.

biko

Remember OP, nothing we say here is actual legal advice

Mr. Incognito

Article 7
(Act no. 57-1426 of 31 December 1957 Official Journal of 8 January 1958 in force on 8 April 1958)
(Act no. 89-487 of 10 July 1989 Official Journal of 14 July 1989 Article 16)
(Act no. 92-1336 of 16 December 1992 Article 7 Official Journal of 23 December 1992 in force on 1 March 1994)
(Act no. 95-116 of 4 February 1995 Article 121 Official Journal of 5 February 1995)
(Act no. 98-468 of 17 June 1998 Article 25 Official Journal of 18 June 1998)
(Act no. 2004-204 of 9 March 2004 art.72 I Official Journal of 10 March 2004)
Subject to the provisions of article 213-5 of the Criminal Code, prosecution in felony cases is time-barred by the passing of ten years from the day of the commission of the felony if, during this period, no step in investigation or prosecution was taken. Where such steps were taken, it is time-barred only after the passing of ten years starting from the last step taken. This applies even in respect of those persons who would not have been affected by this investigation or prosecution step.
The limitation period for the prosecution of the felonies set out in article 706-47 when committed against minors is twenty years, and only starts to run from their coming of age.

Article 8
(Act no. 95-116 of 4 February 1995 Article 121 Official Journal of 5 February 1995)
(Act no. 98-468 of 17 June 1998 Article 26 Official Journal of 18 June 1998)
(Act no. 2003-239 of 18 March 2003 Article 38 Official Journal of 19 March 2003)
(Act no. 2004-204 of 9 March 2004 art.72 II Official Journal of 10 March 2004)
For misdemeanours, the prosecution limitation period is three complete years; it operates according to the distinctions set out in the previous article.
The limitation period for the prosecution of the misdemeanours set out in article 706-47 and committed against minors is ten years; for the offences set out in articles 222-30 and 227-26, it is twenty years. These limitation periods only start to run from when the victim comes of age.
Article 9
For petty offences, the public prosecution limitation period is one complete year; it operates according to the distinctions set out in article 7.


http://195.83.177.9/code/liste.phtml?lang=uk&c=34&r=3884#art16959

There you go. Unless the action was initiated and he skipped the country. I'd be very dubious about the whole affair to be honest.

Also

PRELIMINARY ARTICLE
(Inserted by Law no. 2000-516 of 15 June 2000 Article 1 Official Journal of 16 June 2000)
I. Criminal procedure should be fair and adversarial and preserve a balance between the rights of the parties.
It should guarantee a separation between those authorities responsible for prosecuting and those responsible for judging.
Persons who find themselves in a similar situation and prosecuted for the same offences should be judged according to the same rules.
II. The judicial authority ensures that victims are informed and that their rights are respected throughout any criminal process.
III. Every person suspected or prosecuted is presumed innocent as long as his guilt has not been established. Attacks on his presumption of innocence are proscribed, compensated and punished in the circumstances laid down by statute. He has the right to be informed of charges brought against him and to be legally defended.
The coercive measures to which such a person may be subjected are taken by or under the effective control of judicial authority. They should be strictly limited to the needs of the process, proportionate to the gravity of the offence charged and not such as to infringe human dignity.
The accusation to which such a person is subjected should be brought to final judgment within a reasonable time.
Every convicted person has the right to have his conviction examined by a second tribunal.

http://195.83.177.9/code/liste.phtml?lang=uk&c=34&r=3883#art16940

I'd ask for a copy of the court documents or his French solicitors number. This sounds like bull to me.

legtostandon

Thanks for the info and links.

On the limitations thing, the alleged victim was a minor at the time - a child of the accuser - so 15 years is under the 20 years there.

"Innocent until proven guilty" goes against what my relative says. Guess I'll have to enquire further with them. It's all a bit fishy. They'll get no help until I get the facts - certainly not until I have a nice chat with their solicitor. I actually don't know what the crime is ... I'm being told "assault" but the relative isn't exactly goin into detail. Jesus it's creeping me out.

Beruthiel

legtostandon wrote: »

I actually don't know what the crime is ... I'm being told "assault" but the relative isn't exactly goin into detail.

Then I suggest you find out what exactly 'assault' charge they are being done for.
He's not given you any detail, the 'victim' was under age at the time. I won't say what I'm thinking he could have done, but you can guess and if you consider that fact then a lot more info is required before you go handing over any money.

tbh

I might respectfully suggest that anyone who begins their post with "I'm no" or "I don't" probably shouldn't post at all or actually to rephrase that so it doesn't sound like I'm back-seat modding - OP, you probably shouldn't pay too much attention to anyone who starts their posts with "i'm not" or "i don't". I accept the intentions are good, but you need definate answers, not conjecture or opinion based on a rudimentary knowledge of irish law.

Mr. Incognito

not conjecture or opinion based on a rudimentary knowledge of irish law.

I'm a solicitor. I doubt abyone with a rudimentary knowledge would have been able to source that quickly.
But I'm not holding this up as legal advice nor should it be taken as such. I suggest you contact the French lawyers that are familiar with the particular facts for advice.

humanji

tbh wrote: »

I might respectfully suggest that anyone who begins their post with "I'm no" or "I don't" probably shouldn't post at all or actually to rephrase that so it doesn't sound like I'm back-seat modding - OP, you probably shouldn't pay too much attention to anyone who starts their posts with "i'm not" or "i don't". I accept the intentions are good, but you need definate answers, not conjecture or opinion based on a rudimentary knowledge of irish law.

In fairness, it's the internet. Nothing said here can be taken as gospel, only as possible advice. I could be the most repected solicitor on Earth, but here it means nothing since I can't prove who I am.

dame

legtostandon wrote: »

Thanks for the info and links.

On the limitations thing, the alleged victim was a minor at the time - a child of the accuser - so 15 years is under the 20 years there.

"Innocent until proven guilty" goes against what my relative says. Guess I'll have to enquire further with them. It's all a bit fishy. They'll get no help until I get the facts - certainly not until I have a nice chat with their solicitor. I actually don't know what the crime is ... I'm being told "assault" but the relative isn't exactly goin into detail. Jesus it's creeping me out.

How can this person be expecting you to help them and yet not even be willing to tell you the full facts of what they've been accused of???? Personally, I wouldn't be giving them any money at all. If he is innocent then he should have no problem shouting from the rooftops about what ludicrous charges have been brought against him. Treat everything this relative tells you with a hefty dose of salt.

Also, if you're talking to his solicitor remember that he/she is representing the person so will only tell you the least harmful details and be aware that part of the 15k your relative is looking for could be fees for this solicitor, thereby making it in his/her best interests to get this "help" from you.

Sangre

Even if the above was part of French law (which SetantaL) has pointed out it doesn't appear to be. Your relative could always appeal it as being in breach of the ECHR, for the laugh loike.

legtostandon

I've explained the situation as more or less told to me over emails and 2 phonecalls the past year. Yes it's got more holes than a tennis raquette and I'm extremely dubious at the whole mess especially with the lack of info put forth. I'm not going to remortgage the house anytime soon. Just throwing the story out there and seeing what people think. I got barrels of salt ready on this one don't you worry.

At x-mas I'll know what the result of his appeal is and if help is required it's going to take a massive amount of disclosure to do it. I mean 3rd party legally verified court documents and a translated transcript of court proceedings. I know a few barristers and Court Services people and will be getting major legal advice if it comes to it.

Mr. Incognito

I would sit him down and have a full and frank chat. 15? Was it a boy or a girl- could be a sexual assault, it's 15 years later so maybe a paternity suit?

You need the facts mate. Not reverse engineering. Try and be sensitive though your relation is obviously embarrassed.