My neighbour leaves her baby outside!

Susannahmia

I am living in an apartment block where the ground floor apartments have glass doors leading out to the front. One of my neighbours has recently had a baby; it’s about three months old now.

The thing is, I've noticed at least three times that some mornings she leaves it outside the door in it's pram. The doors shut, curtains often closed and no sign of the mother! Some of these mornings have been really cold, but the baby seems well wrapped up at least.

The first two times I thought it was strange but I was just passing by and assumed that the mother was maybe just grabbing something from the apartment. I was at home today though so I checked on the baby several times. From the time I was aware of the baby- it was out for at least an hour. On my last check I said to myself that if it was still out there I would call the Gardai. She had finally brought it in though.

As well as the cold I'm worried that someone could take her, we have security gates but I think I'm the only one that actually bothers to close the pedestrian gate!

She looks Eastern European, maybe it’s a strange custom or something? This could be happening every morning for all I know as I tend to leave the apartment at different times. What should I do?

Nevyn

This used to be standard practice here in Ireland, for the baby to be dressed for the day wrapped up warm and put outside the door in the pram while the mother got on with the house hold chores for an hour or so in the morning.
This was done to me as a child, to my siblings as well and there were times I did the same with my two, what is the difference between walking with the pram for an hour and
leaving the baby out in it for an hour, provided the child is well wraped up and not exposed to the elements.
I didn't have mine out 'for some air' in the winter when it was cold but as you have stated the mother is not from this country an may not consider the current weather here to be cold at all.

Susannahmia

Hmm interesting that explains a lot. However the difference here is that this is a public space, not a priate garden and sometimes the curtains are closed Anyone could easily snatch her.

run_Forrest_run

this is unbelievable! Customs and culture aside, is the mother so thick to fail to notice the area is an open one and the baby could be harmed!

Once again something like this will be highlighted after it's too late and the police and hospital staff will be working to fix a problem caused by some ignorant and foolish person!

Nevyn

imred wrote: »

Hmm interesting that explains a lot. However the difference here is that this is a public space, not a priate garden and sometimes the curtains are closed Anyone could easily snatch her.

Peoples front gardens are public spaces are so are people front steps ( where they have no garden ) and babies were left out in their buggy there as well.

Honestly in a private apartment complex do you really think there is that much danger from a child snatcher ?
Clearly the parent does not rate this risk as the child is right outside her door.

Susannahmia

Thaedydal wrote: »

Peoples front gardens are public spaces are so are people front steps ( where they have no garden ) and babies were left out in their buggy there as well.

Honestly in a private apartment complex do you really think there is that much danger from a child snatcher ?
Clearly the parent does not rate this risk as the child is right outside her door.

It would be too much of a risk for me if it was my baby.

squire1

There is a closed door between the mother and child?

If it a private apartment or not, it is still a public area. What a strange risk to take with your child.

What if some stupid kids were to come along and play a trick by hiding the pram or something. The mind boggles.

ANXIOUS

my nanny still does that with her grand children, infairness its in a glass porch, with the door cracked open a bit. When ever she's cleaning or if he is sleeping. Differnt place same idea. im sure its been going on for centuries. Just shows you how times are changing.

lucyburn

I think that's disgraceful!
The child could catch a cold very easily especially in this weather, i wouldn't leave a dog out for to long at this time of the year.
And what if the child was kidnapped, it doesn't bear thinking about.
You should phone social services and have them investigate her.

Susannahmia

squire1 wrote: »

There is a closed door between the mother and child?

QUOTE]

Yep the door is always shut and the curtains usually are too.

kmick

Next time it happens call social services and let them deal with it. Or else call them now and let them give her a warning. Someone steals that baby you wlll all be suspects.

Susannahmia

kmick wrote: »

Next time it happens call social services and let them deal with it. Or else call them now and let them give her a warning. Someone steals that baby you wlll all be suspects.

I was thinking of asking the Gardai to have a word with her and if it didnt stop then social services? I'd hate to get the family involved in the system if she was just stupid or ignorant of Irish culture and modern day risks.

I'm not really familiar with this system all suggestions are welcome!

silverharp

imred wrote: »

I was thinking of asking the Gardai to have a word with her and if it didnt stop then social services? I'd hate to get the family involved in the system if she was just stupid or ignorant of Irish culture and modern day risks.

I'm not really familiar with this system all suggestions are welcome!

try having a chat with her and maybe get to understand the culture, if she is from eastern europe the irish winter wont seem harsh by her standards. lets be honest the rest is media hype, the very people who think there is a molester behind every corner will be the very ones who let their kids ride in a car without a seatbelt

magnumlady

I think its dreadful, would she leave a plasma tv outside on its own?
I don't think so, but its OK to leave a baby. Funny old world.

kelle

Does anybody remember around this time last year, there was a discussion on Joe Duffy's radio show about a baby being left sleeping on a balcony in a Dublin Apartment. Seemingly, this baby was being minded by it's Scandinavian grandmother and this practice is very popular in Scandinavia. But a neighbour became concerned as it was a day of torrential rain and reported her to the Gardai. The baby's father was on Joe Duffy defending his mother-in-law's actions.
I remember my mother doing the same with my younger brother, even when he was a newborn (born in November!). I live in the country myself and like to let my toddler have her afternoon sleep outdoors, but leave the door open so I can see her and only if the weather is mild.

Nevyn

imred wrote: »

I was thinking of asking the Gardai to have a word with her and if it didnt stop then social services? I'd hate to get the family involved in the system if she was just stupid or ignorant of Irish culture and modern day risks.

I'm not really familiar with this system all suggestions are welcome!

The garda can't do anything about it.
social services are hugely over worked and under staffed in this country and yes a compliant to them automatically generates a file on the system that stays active for a year even if there is not a problem and even after the case is closed the file still exists.

With the child being under a year they do fall under the care of the local baby nurse. So I would suggest ringing your local health clinic and asking to speak to the child/baby nurse and mention your concerns as they will be the one checking on the baby and doing the child's developmental check ups.

Also, how do you know that there is not some one checking on the child periodically ? Do you sit and watch the pram for the entire time ?

squire1

silverharp wrote: »

the very people who think there is a molester behind every corner will be the very ones who let their kids ride in a car without a seatbelt

That is a bit of a dramatic statement. No?

I don't think this issue is about child molesters, it is more about leaving a baby in a risky situation. She might leave the baby out there for a year and nothing will happen but then again, why bother taking the risk?

I'm not going to pass judgement on this lady as i am not fully aware of the situation. I just know I wouldn't do it. Does that mean that I am the type of person to allow my kids travel in a car unrestrained? I don't think so.

Ludo

Nothing wrong with this at all as long as the baby is well wrapped up and watched at all times.

A friend of mine from Eastern Europe does this every day with her three month old as it is common practise where she is from and it is a damn sight colder there than it is here.

We take our 2 month-olds for walks every day in their pram to get them outside (unless it is very damp/raining)...no difference really health wise other than we are right there with them at all times.

Mr. Presentable

Thaedydal wrote: »

Honestly in a private apartment complex do you really think there is that much danger from a child snatcher ?

Wasn't the McCann kid in a private apartment complex?

squire1

Ludo wrote: »

Nothing wrong with this at all as long as the baby is well wrapped up and watched at all times.

A friend of mine from Eastern Europe does this every day with her three month old as it is common practise where she is from and it is a damn sight colder there than it is here.

We take our 2 month-olds for walks every day in their pram to get them outside (unless it is very damp/raining)...no difference really health wise other than we are right there with them at all times.

But from what I can gather in this situation, the mother can not see the baby/pram. Different situation really to leaving them in a porch with the door open or outside the window in a private back garden.

Saruman

Maybe there is a health benefit to it? I mean it will probably toughen the immune system or whatever. Get the baby used to the elements, humans have a great capacity to adapt to all environments and getting the baby used to the elements at that age might make them less likely to get sick when they are a little older.
It sounds possible anyway... not sure if there is some evidence of it.

Anyway i think the action itself is fine as long the baby is being checked on. Are you sure the mother does not check on the baby through the curtains every now and again? Hell she might even have a baby monitor in the pram so can hear anything that goes on.

Maybe what you should do is ask a garda to drop by to see if the baby is outside, if so maybe they can have a little chat and check out the situation.

Susannahmia

Thaedydal wrote: »

The garda can't do anything about it.
social services are hugely over worked and under staffed in this country and yes a compliant to them automatically generates a file on the system that stays active for a year even if there is not a problem and even after the case is closed the file still exists.

With the child being under a year they do fall under the care of the local baby nurse. So I would suggest ringing your local health clinic and asking to speak to the child/baby nurse and mention your concerns as they will be the one checking on the baby and doing the child's developmental check ups.

Also, how do you know that there is not some one checking on the child periodically ? Do you sit and watch the pram for the entire time ?

I'm sure she must check on the child regularly (or at least I hope that she does!). But for me that wouldn’t be good enough. Its a big apartment block where no one knows anyone, the gates never closed because people are lazy and the code is too awkward to put in, a large hotel actually has its back entrance opening out to our car park with workers and delivery men free to walk in and out. If the baby is out there for 10 minutes unchecked anything could happen. I know that there aren’t psychos around every corner looking to steal babies but it is still a risk. As someone else said Madeline McCann was in a private complex, Jamie Bulgers mother only left him unattended for one minute.

NextSteps

Wouldn't the easiest thing be to mention it to her? Not in a busybody way, if you can help it, but just to mention the danger. No need to bring all the bureaucracy down on her head if it's a case of her being innocent of the risks.

I don;t think there's anything strange about leaving the baby out per se, it's just the fact that it's a public area.

Susannahmia

The decision has been made for me. My flatmate just text me there to tell me that she saw the baby outside again. The garda station was on her way so she dropped in and mentioned it to a garda. He seemed pretty shocked and promised to call down later to see what the story is.

FoxyCat

There is nothing wrong with the child sleeping outside as long as he is dressed up properly. My both boys spent most of the day sleeping outside in a pram or else at home when awake. and as some one mentioned we get temperatures of up to -30 (Celsius) But I guess for the little one -10 -15 would be more than enough.

Obviously here the problem is with the baby being left not in the private garden. It might be possible, that the mother does not feel, that it isn't safe to leave the baby outside the front door. It might be, that she feels quite safe, because of the private block you live in. I believe just a friendly chat would've been enough to see what is her position and to decide what is best to do. And then you could've checked whether she still does the same..

Carrigart Exile

The parents are not neglecting the baby, we are just programmed thanks to media scare stories into cotton-wooling our children. Letting the baby experience fresh air, even if it is cold, is better for it and will help it build up its immune system, the parents are probably doing better for their children than those that keep them in, tied to their apron strings and sitting in sweltering centrally heated conditions.

lezizi

There was a programme on recently called bringing up baby. It was were they put three different parenting styles to the test.
One of the methods was the 1950's method and the lady was doing this, putting her baby outside in the garden for an hour everyday. Id never heard of this being done before and would never do it with my baby, but when i said it to my mam and nana they just nodded and said what's wrong with it, the babies need to get air, we use to this with ye. So it seemed like it was common practise back in the day, but we are living in a different world now and i would never leave my baby outside, anything could happen.

loyatemu

nipplenuts wrote: »

Wasn't the McCann kid in a private apartment complex?

littlebitdull

First off... I openly admit to only having read the first few posts on this thread.

Secondly ... this must be at least the fourth parenting forum I have seen said opening post on. Saw it on MagicMum, on Rollercoaster, and on EUMOM....and not all this week either. Its almost word for word the same opening post I have seen over the past year or so.

Makes me wonder about it.

Nevyn

littlebitdull if you have an issue or a suspision with a post use the report post function please.

littlebitdull

I simply find it strange that someone is posting the same issue again... or is this an urban myth beginning?

And to be fair to the opening poster this is the first time I have seen this issue without the poster claiming their neighbour to be "non irish"... so at least on here its less bigoted than I have seen before.

Of course its also entirely possible that its something that people have a problem with. That a practice that I saw widely used when my eldest was an infant is coming back into fashion, but not with everybody.

I am simply stating facts, as I have encounted them.

Ludo

I think if you read all the way to the end of the original post, you will find that the OP did say the person was "non-irish".

Susannahmia

I swear to you this is the only place I posted about this! Why would I bother make this up or whatever?! Could you back this up with a link? I'm actualy quite interested to see.

I mentioned that the neighbour was non Irish because I thought that there could be a valid cultural reason for her doing this. That does seem to be the case, and because of the possible language barrier.

The Garda said he would just go down for a friendly chat so it wasent like anyone went overboard or anything. I don't know if she is still doing it, the last few mornings I've been leaving the house earlier.

barbiegirl

It is healthy to leave a baby, well wrapped up outside for a period of time, in all weather except fog and mist. It helps to build their immune systems. Or at least it's what I've been told and I've seen done for many years. Keeping them indoors in the heat all the time is really bad for them. However she should always be able to see the baby. Have a chat with the baby nurse or indeed the lady herself, in a non judgemental way as no parent likes to be critisised.

deisemum

Many moons ago when I was a baby I was put in my pram and then put outside the back door.

This was in the countryside and I was in view at all times. The only thing about it that freeked out my mother was when I started crying and she saw a hen in the pram and it pecking at me.

I don't have a problem with a baby in it's pram or buggy and it wrapped up and outside but my problem would be the parent indoors and not with it.

*Page*

So what was the out come?

l3LoWnA

Surely, if it's not too cold for the baby to be left outside, it coudlnt be too cold for the mother to leave the door opened to keep and eye/ear out for the baby?!?

I think it's probably a good idea to let the baby get some fresh air in this manner and would be as good as a long walk for the baby almost, probably gives mum a chance to do some housework or something also, but she should be at least opening her curtains/windows/door and leaving them opened while this little creature is outside.

Susannahmia

*Page* wrote: »

So what was the out come?

imred wrote: »

The decision has been made for me. My flatmate just text me there to tell me that she saw the baby outside again. The garda station was on her way so she dropped in and mentioned it to a garda. He seemed pretty shocked and promised to call down later to see what the story is.

I havent seen it outside since.

Susannahmia

l3LoWnA wrote: »

Surely, if it's not too cold for the baby to be left outside, it coudlnt be too cold for the mother to leave the door opened to keep and eye/ear out for the baby?!?

That was my problem with the whole situation.

Shelli

Babies need fresh air, I put my little boy out the back in his pram for an hour or so if I can't get out for a walk in the morning, but he's always very well wrapped up and always in sight.

The main problem I would have here is that the area the baby is being left is to easily accessed and the mother cant see the baby at all times. I cant believe she even closes the curtains!

Scare stories or not, it's not worth the risk in this day and age.

dame

l3LoWnA wrote: »

Surely, if it's not too cold for the baby to be left outside, it coudlnt be too cold for the mother to leave the door opened to keep and eye/ear out for the baby?!?

I think it's probably a good idea to let the baby get some fresh air in this manner and would be as good as a long walk for the baby almost, probably gives mum a chance to do some housework or something also, but she should be at least opening her curtains/windows/door and leaving them opened while this little creature is outside.

The baby's wrapped up and ready for the elements, same as the mother would be if she were out walking with him/her. It's a bit much to expect a door to be left open during the winter though. I mean, would you expect the mother to do her housework wearing a coat or stick the heat on for an extra three hours a day to replace the heat lost through the open door??? That wouldn't be very green or efficient.

She should leave the curtains open though and check on him all the time. I'd also prefer if the child was on a balcony or in an enclosed rear-garden. It does sound risky leaving a child in a pram where anyone can be walking in and out, whether or not you can see them out the window and ar checking them.



Anyway, looks like the guards did have a chat with the woman. I hope she brings that baby forr a good walk every day and that the only fresh air the child used to get hasn't been eliminated.

l3LoWnA

dame wrote: »

The baby's wrapped up and ready for the elements, same as the mother would be if she were out walking with him/her. It's a bit much to expect a door to be left open during the winter though. I mean, would you expect the mother to do her housework wearing a coat or stick the heat on for an extra three hours a day to replace the heat lost through the open door??? That wouldn't be very green or efficient.

For gods sake!! Green, efficient???? It wouldn't be very efficient mothering if you had your baby left outside with the door closed whilst you sat on your ar$e inside and your baby was snatched or a bird shat in it's eye/cat jumped into pram and it was screaming its poor little lungs out, now would it? If it's not too cold for the baby to be lying there, in a pram, without physical activity to keep him/her warm (wrapped up or not), surely if the mother is keeping herself busy and on the go with housework, it shouldn't be too cold for her if the door is left open!!!

It's ridiculous! No offence, OP, but you could be any sort of weirdo living next door, passing that pram and knowing there's noody keeping an eye out for the contents!

A totally selfish, inconsiderate & stupid act in my opinion. If you have a private secure dwelling or live in the countryside where you'd hear a car pulling up or footsteps on your drive-way, or any noise outside including the baby, fair enough (although, closing your baby out regardless, actually seems quite a cold act to me), but in a place where there are other occupants with access, who are strangers, no way!!

I still have baby monitor switched on at night (I wouldn't hear her from my bedroom, opposite ends of house) and my daughter in 3.5. I'd never forgive myself if something happened her during the night (choking/fall out of bed etc) and I wasn't doing my best to listen out for her! I'm not over-protective, I just care about the little people

dame

l3LoWnA wrote: »

For gods sake!! Green, efficient???? It wouldn't be very efficient mothering if you had your baby left outside with the door closed whilst you sat on your ar$e inside and your baby was snatched or a bird shat in it's eye/cat jumped into pram and it was screaming its poor little lungs out, now would it? If it's not too cold for the baby to be lying there, in a pram, without physical activity to keep him/her warm (wrapped up or not), surely if the mother is keeping herself busy and on the go with housework, it shouldn't be too cold for her if the door is left open!!!

It's ridiculous! No offence, OP, but you could be any sort of weirdo living next door, passing that pram and knowing there's noody keeping an eye out for the contents!

A totally selfish, inconsiderate & stupid act in my opinion. If you have a private secure dwelling or live in the countryside where you'd hear a car pulling up or footsteps on your drive-way, or any noise outside including the baby, fair enough (although, closing your baby out regardless, actually seems quite a cold act to me), but in a place where there are other occupants with access, who are strangers, no way!!

I still have baby monitor switched on at night (I wouldn't hear her from my bedroom, opposite ends of house) and my daughter in 3.5. I'd never forgive myself if something happened her during the night (choking/fall out of bed etc) and I wasn't doing my best to listen out for her! I'm not over-protective, I just care about the little people

It wouldn't be very efficient mothering to keep the child indoors all the time either (as in with no walks). For all we know the mother might be on crutches or in a wheelchair and therefore unable to take the child out for a walk. It would also be unhealthy and costly to have the heat pumping out to fill an apartment that has it's door left wide open. It would be inefficient "mothering" to spend double the cost of your heating bill for the sake of leaving a door open, rather than bringing the child out for a walk (or watching through a slightly opened window (ventilation and to hear the child) with the curtains open). It would be more "efficient mothering" to not overheat the house, to make sure yourself and the child did get out for some fresh air every day if possible and to use your money for other things (like possibly getting somehwere to live that has a private secure garden or balcony). That's just my opinion. Mind you, leaving a baby outside in a publicly-accessible area whilst having the curtains and windows closed was dangerous and something I'd personally never do.

Susannahmia

dame wrote: »

For all we know the mother might be on crutches or in a wheelchair and therefore unable to take the child out for a walk. QUOTE]

She's perfectly healthy looking.

parsi

l3LoWnA wrote: »

I still have baby monitor switched on at night (I wouldn't hear her from my bedroom, opposite ends of house) and my daughter in 3.5. I'd never forgive myself if something happened her during the night (choking/fall out of bed etc) and I wasn't doing my best to listen out for her! I'm not over-protective, I just care about the little people

I've never understood baby monitors. We didn't use them and never had any problem with hearing the boys if they were in trouble. Do you wake up every time Junior tosses, turns, grumbles, grunts, snorts and the other noise kids make in their sleep ?

If they fall out of bed you'll hear the thud (sometimes followed by the yells) without a monitor

Gabsdot

My sister lives in Denmark and this babies are put outside to sleep all the time there. Her son's childminder used to leave the children in their prams under a big tree in the front garden for their naps. The children are warmly wrapped up and usually have a hot water bottle.
This mother probably thinks we're strange for keeping our babies in all the time.

Davidth88

God,how times change.

My mother used to walk up the high street each morning to do the daily shopping ( before big supermkts etc ).

She used to leave me, and my siblings , in the pram outside the shop .

She recalls the time my father took us up the road shopping , came back with no pram, realised he had forgotten us ........

Now would I do this with my own child, no I don't think so. Are things really that much more dangerous now ? No I think the perception of danger is much higher. Also these were the days of large ' sprung /coachbuilt ' prams , so we were tucked up in a mobile bed, unlike the modern buggie type things . ( although you try getting a pram in a car )

My mother has also told me she used to leave my younger brother at the end of the garden ( in his pram ) because he cried so much it drove her mad ... now thats a discussion ( my brother is a reasonably well balanced adult now , all be it for an Arsenal supporter ). I am also reasonably sure she used to leave us outside the front door of our house in the pram.

Now this was the 1960's

biko

Gabsdot wrote: »

My sister lives in Denmark and this babies are put outside to sleep all the time there. Her son's childminder used to leave the children in their prams under a big tree in the front garden for their naps. The children are warmly wrapped up and usually have a hot water bottle.
This mother probably thinks we're strange for keeping our babies in all the time.

My sister does this for her kids in Sweden, even in winter. Never a bother and the kids are all healthy and used to playing/being outside.

cathy01

my advice ring your Public health nurse.Regurdless of nationality.Her child is at risk.
Jamie Bulger ,M mcCann, You and I do not want another name on the list of kids taken .
Its a phone call. Dont give your name if you dont want to.
be brave , its not a easy phone call. you wont regreat making it buyt you may regreat not making it.
HTH,
CATHY

sunnyjim

cathy01 wrote: »

my advice ring your Public health nurse.Regurdless of nationality.Her child is at risk.
Jamie Bulger ,M mcCann, You and I do not want another name on the list of kids taken .
Its a phone call. Dont give your name if you dont want to.
be brave , its not a easy phone call. you wont regreat making it buyt you may regreat not making it.
HTH,
CATHY

I'm gonna atack that post, but not the poster.

Jamie Bulger was in a shopping centre.

Mad' McCann was from an apartment at night.

So very different. Stop being so paranoid, if people reported every single minor potential risk, children would be kept indoors chained to their parents til 18.

Next time it happens call social services and let them deal with it. Or else call them now and let them give her a warning. Someone steals that baby you wlll all be suspects.

What?! You are worried that if the child is kidnapped, the neighbours could be suspects? Nice priorities.

What we have here is a nosey person, who isn't happy with how a child is reared. I don't know if it's right or wrong, but the same was done to me, out the back garden on a big baby elastic chair thing. I'm certainly fairly good at putting up with the elements.:)

Informing the Gardai was such a stupid move. You might as well have informed the Revenue Commissioners. The Gardai do not and will not deal with such an issue.

You are assuming the child is left unattended the whole time.

...Assuming!:rolleyes:

cathy01

Its just not worth the Risk.Yeas Hands up.I am paranoid.But I think every parent is.Ok , I am 100 times worse.I just wouldnt take a chance.

Its only a phone call.Other thoughts.Mother could be so tired , the public health nurse will offer help and support in a non intrusive way.She can assess the situation.
She can get the full picture .We...cant.
Play it safe.
cathy