16% of travellers in employment

dodgyme

From todays indo. 16% of travellers of working age are in employment. :rolleyes:

seamus

That's much higher than I would have thought, most of them being self-employed.

What's your opinion on it?

dodgyme

i put the :rolleyes: beside the question. Thats my opinion. Something needs to be done to get these people working.

El Stuntman

dodgyme wrote: »

i put the :rolleyes: beside the question. Thats my opinion. Something needs to be done to get these people working.

why?

judas101

would you hire one?

seamus

dodgyme wrote: »

i put the :rolleyes: beside the question. Thats my opinion. Something needs to be done to get these people working.

That Indo piece is low on substance. The statistics themselves say that people who didn't specify their employment status obviously aren't included - since most travellers operate outside of the tax system, I would say that most of them working for themselves opted to not specify that on the census form for fear of being found out.

A more useful statistic would be the number of people in each ethnicity claiming unemployment benefit.

dodgyme

El Stuntman wrote: »

why?

why do you think. If 16% are working, who has to pay to keep them????

seamus

dodgyme wrote: »

why do you think. If 16% are working, who has to pay to keep them????

Except that 16% working doesn't mean 84% claiming the dole. You're making a pretty huge leap there.

A different page in the same report shows that 41.2% of travellers are officially "unemployed". With no fixed abode, and 83.6% of travellers having a primary education or less, this really isn't a shock.

dodgyme

seamus wrote: »

this really isn't a shock.

Its not a shock, its just that when stats come out I think it is atleast a basis for discussion. The indo can be a bit flakey in it representations anyhow but getting opinions like your own is important as is the comment "would you employ one", really does put it up to you.

donaghs

Does anyone remember when the social welfare services on both sides of the border got together to synchronise times for social welfare payments to cut down on cross-border fraud. There was uproar in the Travelling Community.

layke

Seamus without hard facts I can't disagree with you but during my time working in Nutgrove (kip) many years ago I saw the dole queue. Every month a mass movement of travellers would march up like a pack of penguins and claim.

These people probably (and I say probably) from the experiences I have over the years are making cash on the side without paying any tax.The majority that I have seen do not work, have no intention of working either and before anyone asks no, I wouldn't hire a traveller, I just couldn't trust them.

They need to be forced into working and stop living off my back. Losing your dole money after xx amount of months without work would certainly help.

Zombrex

dodgyme wrote: »

Something needs to be done to get these people working.

What would you suggest?

dodgyme

Wicknight wrote: »

What would you suggest?

what would you suggest?

Hobbes

16% means nothing. It could be 16 people or 16,000 people. Do you have actual figures from the newspaper?

Zulu

Forced labour camps???

Zombrex

dodgyme wrote: »

what would you suggest?

I wouldn't suggest anything.

The main reasons Travelers have problems getting employment is lack of education, lack of skill sets and attitudes towards Travelers. Those problems are quite complex with no quick fix solution. There are problems on all sides, from discrimination against travelers to the attitudes of the traveler communities themselves towards things like education and employment in the "settled world".

Its all very well saying that they should all be working.

But unless you have an idea that solves more problems that it creates its just hot air TBH.

dodgyme

Wicknight wrote: »

I wouldn't suggest anything.
.

ok

Zombrex

dodgyme wrote: »

ok

And what would you suggest?

Hobbes

Here is the actual story.
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/only-16pc-of-travellers-are--in-employment-1231891.html

Travellers make up 0.5% of the population. Of that 59% are of the working age (0.295% of Irish population).

This working age disparity we have known about for years. It was worse in 1994 (iirc).

So it is 3,584 registered themselves as working out of 22,400. Low numbers? Yes, but the total can't be taken on it's own.

Liam Byrne

Hobbes wrote: »

16% means nothing. It could be 16 people or 16,000 people. Do you have actual figures from the newspaper?

It's the Indo, for feck's sake!!!! The paper that skews more statistics and writes dubious and lying headlines than any tabloid I've ever seen!

I used to buy this crap, but I gave up when I saw them take a statistical fact, avoid the required clarification, add some guesswork, make 2 crazy assumptions and a statistically unlikely crystal ball prediction and then write the headline based on their conclusion, quoting the headline as a fact using the phrase "will be"..... :rolleyes:

It was the equivalent of a headline:

"Bertie Ahern will be jailed for fraud"

....leading an article that basically says that.....

"If the allegations which have been made against the Taoiseach are indeed true, and if they can be proven, and if the DPP can establish a case, and if the judge or jury reaches a guilty verdict without the case falling apart due to the media coverage, and if the judge then views the offence as fraud and bad enough to justify a jail term, then Bertie Ahern will be jailed, assuming that he hasn't died in the meantime like Charlie did."

If you're looking for considered statistical facts, my advice is to look elsewhere.....

e.g. "of working age"

How many are disabled ?
How many are stay-at-home married and therefore minding their kids and not working ?

etc, etc.

It's VERY easy make a headline that looks like it's fact; particularly if you want to impose your bias/prejudice on a naieve reader.

I also remember the indo reporting a convicted killer via an article that led with "The petite blonde mother of two wept bitterly as she was led from the courtroom"

That's not a journalist; that's someone who wants to write chick-lit.

Mr.Micro

Yeah ,the Indo is a comic,most of its stories are borrowed from other papers .I would take it with a pinch of salt.The travellers get by with a bit of this and that scraping a living .I dont see why people should continue to resent the fact that the majority are not registered as working (if we accept the stat from the Indo.)as it is not an easy lifestyle where they are discriminated against by many.

Beano

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Yeah ,the Indo is a comic,most of its stories are borrowed from other papers .I would take it with a pinch of salt.The travellers get by with a bit of this and that scraping a living .I dont see why people should continue to resent the fact that the majority are not registered as working (if we accept the stat from the Indo.)as it is not an easy lifestyle where they are discriminated against by many.

why would people not resent the fact that there is a section of our population who consider themselves above income tax?

Mr.Micro

Beano wrote: »

why would people not resent the fact that there is a section of our population who consider themselves above income tax?

With respect Beano,You mean the politicians and big business men and all the other chancers in Ireland .

layke

At least they keep the money flowing on our little Island, provide jobs and actually do pay corp tax.

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Yeah ,the Indo is a comic,most of its stories are borrowed from other papers .I would take it with a pinch of salt.The travellers get by with a bit of this and that scraping a living .I dont see why people should continue to resent the fact that the majority are not registered as working (if we accept the stat from the Indo.)as it is not an easy lifestyle where they are discriminated against by many.

Did you not see when the Euro came in? Every traveller bought a 70k Merc and then sold it after the conversion took place. Trust me mate, a lot of these boys are loaded and still collect your money every week.

The country needs to cut the dole after 1 year of non employment unless they have some medical cert.

marcsignal

Mr.Micro wrote: »

With respect Beano,You mean the politicians and big business men and all the other chancers in Ireland .

I confess to not having much time for Travellers, but Mr. Micro has raised a very valid point.

Zombrex

layke wrote: »

The country needs to cut the dole after 1 year of non employment unless they have some medical cert.

And do what with the people who are still unemployed? Ship them into the city centre so they can sleep under doorways and beg on the street? Great idea, that just what we need

oscarBravo

layke wrote: »

Every traveller bought a 70k Merc and then sold it after the conversion took place.

This is categorically untrue.

Granted, there's no rule in the charter about factual accuracy, but on an emotive topic such as this I have no intention of letting this forum become a soap-box for people to bitch about selected groups - be they immigrants, travellers or anyone else.

So, here's how it's going to play out from now on: rampant bullshit such as I've quoted above will earn an infraction point, and doing it repeatedly will earn a ban. If you want to troll, go do it somewhere else.

eoin5

We should count ourselves lucky, at least were not Romania

The_Minister

Mr.Micro wrote: »

With respect Beano,You mean the politicians and big business men and all the other chancers in Ireland .

You mean all 9 of them:rolleyes:
(people who pay no/very little tax)

The_Minister

Mr.Micro wrote: »

With respect Beano,You mean the politicians and big business men and all the other chancers in Ireland .

You mean all 9 of them:rolleyes:
(people who pay no/very little tax)

Guy:Incognito

seamus wrote: »

A different page in the same report shows that 41.2% of travellers are officially "unemployed". With no fixed abode, and 83.6% of travellers having a primary education or less, this really isn't a shock.

Just on that point, can your average homeless man from say, dublin city centre, claim dole?

Wicknight wrote: »

And do what with the people who are still unemployed? Ship them into the city centre so they can sleep under doorways and beg on the street? Great idea, that just what we need

They should be put in a job, working in a shop, road sweeping or any one of a number of jobs they felt werent worth theri while getting out of bed for for years. If after that they fail to stay in that job, it's their own business what they do, but no more hand outs.

flogen

The_Minister wrote: »

You mean all 9 of them:rolleyes:
(people who pay no/very little tax)

I suppose it depends on your definition of "very little tax" but the figure is certainly more than 9.

Then you have the issue of those who aren't even resident/registered in Ireland for taxation purposes.

On topic: Wicknight's breakdown of the problems at hand are pretty accurate - there is no easy solution here.

It seems to me that the OP came along looking to moan about the bloody travellers scabbing off the state, however, and despite claims to the contrary certainly isn't here for a discussion.

marcsignal

Stekelly wrote: »

Just on that point, can your average homeless man from say, dublin city centre, claim dole?

Good question ? It seems homeless people get 'Supplemetary Welfare Benefit'
http://www.welfare.ie/publications/sw4/s9.html

Stekelly wrote: »

They should be put in a job, working in a shop, road sweeping or any one of a number of jobs they felt werent worth theri while getting out of bed for for years. If after that they fail to stay in that job, it's their own business what they do, but no more hand outs.

Don't entirely disagree with you, but as it has already been said, who would employ a Traveller ?? Unless they could 'Trade Goods' or something, themselves, independently, and be regulated by the Tax Man, it's a tough call.

Guy:Incognito

marcsignal wrote: »

Don't entirely disagree with you, but as it has already been said, who would employ a Traveller ?? Unless they could 'Trade Goods' or something, themselves, independently, and be regulated by the Tax Man, it's a tough call.

I was talking about everyone on the dole. As for travellers, the could be employed either directly or indirectly by the government or local authorities. FFS give them a wall in a government building somewhere to paint over and over, at least they'll be earning the money instead of getting it for nothing.

Beano

Mr.Micro wrote: »

With respect Beano,You mean the politicians and big business men and all the other chancers in Ireland .

There are several groups in this country that meet the description i gave. As the discussion was about travellers i assumed you would understand that it was them i was referring to.

Beano

marcsignal wrote: »

I confess to not having much time for Travellers, but Mr. Micro has raised a very valid point.

His point was also irrelevant to the discussion. By all means start a thread on politicians and big business men and i will happliy join in with the condemnation.

Liam Byrne

layke wrote: »

Trust me mate, a lot of these boys are loaded and still collect your money every week.

Apart from objecting to you trying to invoke suspicions by using "a lot" (please quote figures or else use "some"), I will agree with you on some level; "some" are definitely doing this, just as "some" settled people are.

So there's no more and no less suspicion or disgust required than "people in general".....why single out travellers ?

And unless it's means-tested and we weed out ALL the chancers (TDs, travellers, foreigners, Irish, asylum seekers, etc) or unless you can categorically show how the number doing it is disproportionate to the overall number for the general population, then the Indo has no reason to single out travellers.

Mr.Micro

Beano wrote: »

There are several groups in this country that meet the description i gave. As the discussion was about travellers i assumed you would understand that it was them i was referring to.

You cant just pick out one group as it is not balanced and not the rest particularly when its is the big shots who are supposed to set the example.

Beano

Mr.Micro wrote: »

You cant just pick out one group as it is not balanced and not the rest particularly when its is the big shots who are supposed to set the example.

I have no intention of getting into a strawman argument about the tax paying activities of our esteemed leaders and rich business men. can you at least acknowledge that there is a great deal of truth in what i said?

Mr.Micro

Beano wrote: »

I have no intention of getting into a strawman argument about the tax paying activities of our esteemed leaders and rich business men. can you at least acknowledge that there is a great deal of truth in what i said?

Yes Beano you may have a valid point in what you say ,I dont think I categorically disputed that .

purple'n'gold

dodgyme wrote: »

From todays indo. 16% of travellers of working age are in employment. :rolleyes:

This has to be nonsense, every tinker in the country is working, but they are working in the black economy for themselves or their families.

FTA69

Depends on what you mean by the black economy though. Most of them provide services like tree topping or painting sheds etc, others are involved in the lucrative scrap trade.

Beano

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Yes Beano you may have a valid point in what you say ,I dont think I categorically disputed that .

so the problem then is that i only referred to travellers? given the topic of the thread I thought it was reasonable to stay on topic.

Beano

FTA69 wrote: »

Depends on what you mean by the black economy though. Most of them provide services like tree topping or painting sheds etc, others are involved in the lucrative scrap trade.

I thought the meaning of black economy was pretty clear. They work for cash and dont pay paye and prsi.

Zombrex

Stekelly wrote: »

it's their own business what they do, but no more hand outs.

No, its my business when they end up sleeping in the streets, begging and involved in crime.

People seem to really miss the point of social welfare.

FTA69

I thought the meaning of black economy was pretty clear. They work for cash and dont pay paye and prsi.

I thought black economy meant crime. Anyway, there's loads of people in Ireland who do that, numbers that far exceed the entire Traveller population.

Guy:Incognito

Wicknight wrote: »

No, its my business when they end up sleeping in the streets, begging and involved in crime.

People seem to really miss the point of social welfare.

So we should support people, giving them free money just because they feel they shouldnt have to work/ cant be bothered gettign off their arses during the day like everyone else? The government should only go so far to help people.

I really fail to see any reason why people shouldnt be made work for the dole money. The could do jobs for the government (send them out picking up litter al day) with time off to go to verifiable interviews (although this could be cut out if they are takign the piss) for better jobs. I cant see a downside to that.

Mr.Micro

Stekelly wrote: »

So we should support people, giving them free money just because they feel they shouldnt have to work/ cant be bothered gettign off their arses during the day like everyone else? The government should only go so far to help people.

I really fail to see any reason why people shouldnt be made work for the dole money. The could do jobs for the government (send them out picking up litter al day) with time off to go to verifiable interviews (although this could be cut out if they are takign the piss) for better jobs. I cant see a downside to that.

Ease off a little there,people on the dole have not committed a crime have they
Being on the dole is tough enough I can imagine making ends meet .Anybody could end up out of a job . Not all dole people are wasters .Various reasons such as mental illness , social problems ,health problems etc etc can all be factors for being on the dole.ITS NOT A CRIME ,nor do such people need to be punished.

Beano

FTA69 wrote: »

I thought black economy meant crime. Anyway, there's loads of people in Ireland who do that, numbers that far exceed the entire Traveller population.

In absolute terms I am sure you are correct. Per capita i very much doubt it.

Guy:Incognito

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Ease off a little there,people on the dole have not committed a crime have they
Being on the dole is tough enough I can imagine making ends meet .Anybody could end up out of a job . Not all dole people are wasters .Various reasons such as mental illness , social problems ,health problems etc etc can all be factors for being on the dole.ITS NOT A CRIME ,nor do such people need to be punished.

Since when is being made work a punishment? God forbid people should be productive and earn money. Anyway, the discussion was about medium-long term unemployed. Somone who is fully able to work should not be on the dole more than a few weeks. The problem is people have an atitude that certain jobs are below them.

On the medical issue, are people out of work on medical issues not on some for of illness or disability payments ratehr that the standard dole? Either way, the discussion was about your averagejoe dole collector and/or travellers on the dole.

So again I ask the question. Whats wrong with making people actually work for their dole and why do you view making them work as "punishment"?

If people had to turn up and work 5 days a week for the government you can bet anythign you like the figures for the dole would drop a chunk as I'd guarentee the people working and on the dole are earnign more through working than from the dole.

Oh and claiming dole while also workign is a crime (which was also being discussed here. Re:travellers)

oscarBravo

Stekelly wrote: »

They should be put in a job, working in a shop, road sweeping or any one of a number of jobs they felt werent worth theri while getting out of bed for for years.

Speaking as an employer: I'll pick my own employees, thanks.