What make for a great coffee shop?

sedohre

Over Coffee a few friends were saying why we go to the places we go for coffee and why. Is the feel of the place, the music or lack there of, the quality of the coffee, the food that goes with it, the staff, location, I could go on.

What do you want from your coffee shop?

In a nut shell, why do you go to the places you go?

Slaphead07

I often mull over this as I harbour notions of opening a coffee shop sometime.... anyway, in no particular order as they're all essential....

Good quality consistent coffee and teas.
Friendly well trained staff.
Clean comfortable premises in a good location - big window for "people watching" is good too!
Good quality simple food/soup.
Music should be unobtrusive - conversation and reading are more important - probably Brazilian or indie.

JIZZLORD

Slaphead07 wrote: »

Good quality consistent coffee and teas.
Friendly well trained staff.
Clean comfortable premises in a good location - big window for "people watching" is good too!
Good quality simple food/soup.
Music should be unobtrusive - conversation and reading are more important - probably Brazilian or indie.

That sounds exactly like Bar bazzar, a tiny cafe that used to be in the middle of sligo a few years back. (though lack of food.)

it was a tiny wee place, my bedroom is bigger than it was. they had great world music on the sound system, though never too loud. it was a great place to hang out. but it eventually closed.

OPENROAD

Firstly the coffee has to be good, so many places get it wrong imo.

Has to be clean.

Good selection of newspapers.

Good music and as mentioned not loud, not just volume.

Friendly staff.


Extras- great coffee shop I go to in London, that charge £1.80 for a great latte, and if you have it before 11:30am you get a free croissant. Haven't found the same value here in Dublin.


Location and ambience, being able to watch the world outside go by.
Loyalty cards are also a good thing as long as quality is good.

sedohre

There was a restaurant/cafe in Ranelagh that used to give you a mini chocolate croissant free with your coffee, which I thought was a lovely touch, but the food itself wasn't good. Another place on wexford street gave out a couple of biscuits free with your coffee.

I go to a couple of places often mainly because I like the staff or the owners.
I feel a loyalty to the owners. I think thats my main reason??

One place I go to because they do good quality soup and sandwiches, the staff and owners are nice, but the coffee itself is just ok.

Another for their deserts and good coffee even though the staff aren't that friendly, they actually don't seem to see you as an individual, just another customer. I don't feel loyalty to them at all, but the deserts are great.

Are we allowed to say the names of places?

Blisterman

Free WiFi.
For some reason it's really hard to find anywhere in London with this.

Slaphead07

Blisterman wrote: »

Free WiFi.
For some reason it's really hard to find anywhere in London with this.

You're dead right. Customers expect it these days and even if you only go for one coffee chances are you'll be back again. Kudos my badly burnt friend.

Papad

Slaphead07 wrote: »

I often mull over this as I harbour notions of opening a coffee shop sometime.... anyway, in no particular order as they're all essential....

Good quality consistent coffee and teas.
Friendly well trained staff.
Clean comfortable premises in a good location - big window for "people watching" is good too!
Good quality simple food/soup.
Music should be unobtrusive - conversation and reading are more important - probably Brazilian or indie.

Coffee shops in Ireland suck (for the most part). They really haven’t a clue.
There are 2 decent places in Cork city. One has comfortable seating and a reasonable ambience but the coffee is not great. And the other place has fantastic espresso drinks but it is the size of my ensuite at home. Haven’t come across a decent gourmet coffee shop in Limerick.

I would like to open up a place that fills my criteria but don’t want to spend all my waking hours working in it so need a reliable partner to share this lifestyle choice. Want a place that is open past 6 pm …… maybe have some live acoustic music at night.
A place where you can go to get away from it all.
A place for like-minded people to appreciate (and discuss) the finer things in life, or not.
A place to zone out and people watch out a huge window (better than any big screen TV).
A place .....................................................

johnnyskeleton

Papad wrote: »

Coffee shops in Ireland suck (for the most part). They really haven’t a clue.
There are 2 decent places in Cork city. One has comfortable seating and a reasonable ambience but the coffee is not great. And the other place has fantastic espresso drinks but it is the size of my ensuite at home.

I'm glad you appreciate that Cork is not part of Ireland.

What Ireland is lacking in most are late night cafes. I find it odd that cafe insomnia closes at around 6pm. You need somewhere that you can go to for an hour to two in the evening that's not a pub if you want to read a book or whatever. Other countries have them, but Ireland (or at least Dublin) seems to be sadly lacking.

The best coffee shops I've ever been to were in Vienna (obviously). Excellent coffee, 19th century charm, lazy atmosphere and an old men playing the paino/other instrument in the corner.

SeaSide

The cups/mugs that they use.

Espresso cups are fairly standard but I hate the wide cappuccino cups and the glass latte things. Whereas I love my morning coffee mug.

Also good cane sugar as well as sweetener for the 5%

sedohre

I agree on the idea of having free Wifi, however if you were a shop owner I think I would limit it to 30mins per purchase, as McD's do.

I don't mind the wide cups, for me it's that some of the cups and mugs have too thick a rim. It does make a difference if your holding and drinking from something thats ergonomically uncomfortable to use.

A lot of places have those dredful metal tea pots that always drip as your trying to pour from them. I think all of them should banned and be recycled.

Crumble Froo

my fave place would be the lovinspoon, quite close to the city centre. my friend and i discovered it due to a long running joke about spooning, and her suddenly realising that her bus went past a place called 'lovinspoon'... we kinda made it a thing to stop in there weekly to catch up (we went to college together, but i dropped out, so catching up became more of an issue)... and i have to say, between the friendly staff, good cuppa teas, chilled out atmosphere and interesting/easy listening music, i've grown quite fond of the place.

living in new zealand now, and i'm struggling to find somewhere to replace my weekly spoonin...

BendiBus

Somewhere like Café Noto on Thomas St.

Free WiFi & newspapers, excellent clientelle (fascinating mix of students,newspaper readers, tourists en route to Guinness etc.), good coffee, friendly staff, high ceiling so feels airy & spacious, great music played quietly, corner site with plenty of windows to look out of, comfortable seating.

luckat

I'm actually hunting for a cafe reasonably local to me in Dublin - which is to say Rathmines, Rathgar, Ranelagh, Terenure, Harold's Cross, Kimmage or Rathfarnham.

I like Cake (go through Inreda in Camden Street - the handmade paper shop - and out through the back. Delicious cakes, good tea in proper teapots, nice, intelligent, efficient staff, and nice soupy salady kind of food. But it's a bit dear.

I like Maison des Gourmets, on the street where Grogan's is - not South William Street but the one around the corner. Delicious onion soup, good coffee, nice, efficient staff. Downside: no viewable window.

Burger King in O'Connell Street is ideal from the window point of view (literally) but the food is not to my taste.

Queen of Tarts in Dame Street is brilliant for cakes and tea and salads, but it's tiny. The one across the road in City Hall is in the basement, and the ghost of Red Hugh O'Donnell is always shiveringly looking over your shoulder - no view.

What I'm wondering is where all the big Russian cafes are - we have all the eastern Europeans, why aren't they opening cafes? (One of the nicest cafes I ever saw was in St Paul de Vence in the south of France, where many White Russians fled during the Revolution. It was a long, window-rich cafe with a balcony in front; inside, people drank endless glasses of tea from samovars and read or played chess or chatted; outside, people played boules. This is the kind of place I want.)

As for wifi - I was in Howard's End in Rathgar today; didn't like the atmosphere much, and the coffee was drastic, but there was an open wifi connection. Solas in Aungier Streeet has one too, though I find their food rather variable.

Slaphead07

luckat wrote: »

I'm actually hunting for a cafe reasonably local to me in Dublin - which is to say Rathmines, Rathgar, Ranelagh, Terenure, Harold's Cross, Kimmage or Rathfarnham.

Cafe Moda in Rathmines is up for sale. Worth a Google.

luckat

Slaphead07 wrote: »

Cafe Moda in Rathmines is up for sale. Worth a Google.

Heh - when I say I'm hunting for a cafe, it's to drink tea in, not to buy and run!

Slaphead07

luckat wrote: »

Heh - when I say I'm hunting for a cafe, it's to drink tea in, not to buy and run!

Oh right! I still I answered your question.:D
Rathgar, Ranelagh, Terenure, Harold's Cross, Kimmage or Rathfarnham are not well served by nice coffee shops. Although Ranelagh has quite a few they all seem the same - except for a small Italian one at the end of Ashford Rd, they sell Polombino coffee so I presume they're part fo the Dunne & Creszenzi empire. That one is well worth a visit... good grub too.

finkaboutit555

HI,
Rays Pizza (formely Mr. Coffee) on Harcourt Row, Serves good coffee, and also serves good pizza late at night.. Although it does lack some space,Live Music, Couches and most of the other thing that have been mentioned here, But again Coffee is good.. Surely 1 out of X is good!!!

luckat

I'm still waiting hopefully for some of the eastern European people here to see an opportunity and open my ideal cafe in Rathmines - a big airy place full of people playing chess, having interesting talks and passionate political arguments, and drinking tea in glasses, from samovars, with slices of lemon on the edge, while watching the world go by outside....

sedohre

Cafe Moda in Rathmines, I'm sorry to say really sucks. The food is totally ****, coffee and the staff aren't trained at all, in other words they're crap too. I'd hope someone buy's this and totally changes the staff, coffee, food etc. The asking price is I think..is 500,000 euro, for a 25yr lease and then a yearly rental of ....a lot of euros. It's not worth it for the layout of the place, no matter how good the new owners could be. ?

In Ranelagh just for a takeaway coffee I go to cafe society, its good coffee but I don't like to stay in there, I don't like the atmosphere

Any other suggestions?

eclectichoney

The Bald Barista on aungier street does fantastic coffee, and the guy who owns and runs it is a legend. they also sell their own coffee in a take-home bag - nyom!

Slaphead07

eclectichoney wrote: »

The Bald Barista on aungier street does fantastic coffee, and the guy who owns and runs it is a legend. they also sell their own coffee in a take-home bag - nyom!

I've seen that place (from the bus) and felt an immediate bond with the owner :rolleyes: One of these days I'll walk home and drop in for a mug.

Slaphead07

sedohre wrote: »

Cafe Moda in Rathmines, I'm sorry to say really sucks. The food is totally ****, coffee and the staff aren't trained at all, in other words they're crap too. I'd hope someone buy's this and totally changes the staff, coffee, food etc. The asking price is I think..is 500,000 euro, for a 25yr lease and then a yearly rental of ....a lot of euros. It's not worth it for the layout of the place, no matter how good the new owners could be. ?

I actually considered buying the place but I just don't have the time at the moment. The food is a bit ropey alright but the staff are really friendly and just need a bit of training - not a big problem. I found the coffee to be some of the best around btw. I think the layout, although a bit ragged, is part of it's charm. A few big couches and a lick of paint would smarten it up a lot. For all it's faults it's one of the more relaxing cafés in the area.

I'm still half looking around for a nice small easy to run cafe.....

LoanShark

I think Moda Is a nice place to relax. Granted the food is a bit rough, The coffee is sometimes hit or miss,But I like going into it just to chill..

There used to be a nice place at the top end of rathmines called
"La Creme" (I Think) its now Imsomnia, but they had their own bakery out the back and had the best Courgette Cake ever!

Slaphead07

LoanShark wrote: »

There used to be a nice place at the top end of rathmines called
"La Creme" (I Think) its now Imsomnia, but they had their own bakery out the back and had the best Courgette Cake ever!

Ah that place was magic.... but as you say, now gone. Replaced by Insomnia's burnt coffee and conveyor belt muffins:(

luckat

There are also areas where cafes come and go and never stay. For some reason, Dunville Avenue in Ranelagh and the Portobello corner at the end of Rathmines Road.

Slaphead07

luckat wrote: »

There are also areas where cafes come and go and never stay. For some reason, Dunville Avenue in Ranelagh and the Portobello corner at the end of Rathmines Road.

Odd.... I was just discussing this with another poster.... Porobello is, IMHO, still a bit 'downmarket' and not a place to linger over a coffee. That's a pity really as the bridge and plaza are quite pretty but any shops would be down Richmond Street and that's not pretty at all.
Dunville Avenue is a bit similar in that people go there specifially to shop or pass there going to/from the LUAS. Most shoppers are quite local so the notion of going in a for a coffee would be a bit odd. The passing trade is quite literally passing. A big window coffee shop might work if it was on that row across from Mortons but the other sdie of the road is too dark and busy. Ironically I buy my coffee in "Taste of Italy" there. I must nip around now and stock up!

luckat

The Portobello one surprises me because I would have thought it would get passing trade from all the local flatdwellers.

But the Dunville one/s is/are even more baffling, because every time I've eaten in the premises, through a series of different restaurants, the food was great and the staff were nice and efficient (though I once pretended to be having a panic attack to get them to turn down the awful blaring music, after several people had asked already).

Slaphead07

luckat wrote: »

The Portobello one surprises me because I would have thought it would get passing trade from all the local flatdwellers.

I mean no disrespect but they're generally "downmarket" flats and more likely to go home to a cup of instant than order a skinny latte. Could you really see a $tarbuck$ opening there?

luckat wrote: »

But the Dunville one/s is/are even more baffling, because every time I've eaten in the premises, through a series of different restaurants, the food was great and the staff were nice and efficient (though I once pretended to be having a panic attack to get them to turn down the awful blaring music, after several people had asked already).

Yep the food was good but it never felt like a night out, it was like eating in a shopfront. On the other hand "Wild Lillys" (I think that's what it's called) up past O'Briens/Fothergills is doing a roaring trade simply by being homely and serving great food. As I said earlier if that one on Dunville had moved across the road they'd still be in business.

luckat

Must check out Wild Lillys.

I wonder if we're talking about the same series of restaurants in Dunville Avenue. The ones I've eaten in (at the same premises but under a series of managements) were a long corridor shape stretching right back through a deep house.

Slaphead07

Just up from Mortons? It looked like a shop from the front (more or less) and has all the atmosphere of a warm chemist's. It's a beauty parlour type place now.

dudara

LoanShark wrote: »

I think Moda Is a nice place to relax. Granted the food is a bit rough, The coffee is sometimes hit or miss,But I like going into it just to chill..

I don't find it particularly comfortable and it's a bit draughty. The cakes are excellent there, but the hot food is terribly hit and miss. My bf had chicken wings there recently and they were just microwaved slime. Awful. That would put me off the place permanently. The toilets need a major overhaul as well.

What I would like in a coffee/tea house:
1. Good cakes - so many places use pre-manufactured cakes made with gelatin and artifical cream etc. Proper cakes please. Cake is a sinful pleasure when you've been shopping or walking and there's nothing more disappointing than ordering cake, looking forward to it and getting some muck.

2. Comfortable seats - They can be a mix and match of sofas and chairs but just be comfortable, this is one thing that most Starbucks actually get fairly right.

3. Nice selection of other food - goes without saying really. But I felt cake deserved its own mention.

4. Decent coffee - a lot of coffee in Dublin is bitter and burnt. Plus, when I order an Americano, I don't want the cup/mug full to the brim. The coffee is watered down, slops all over the place and I want room for my milk. 3/4 full please. I'm tired of asking people to tip away the coffee they've just made for me.

5. Decent tea - served in teapots that don't drip.

6. Wifi - some like it, personally I rather read when having coffee. I just don't like lugging my laptop around me with, though now I have a new Wifi enabled phone, my attitude might be changing.

7. Toilets - clean and warm. So many toilets are cold. Plus, hooks on the back of the toilets doors for handbags and coats.

8. Well lit - naturally if possible. Otherwise, use lighting to make it as natural as possible.

EDIT: Just thought of this - somewhere that only charges about €1 - €1.50 for an espresso. I've walked out of many a coffee shop because they want €2+ for an espresso

luckat

Yes yes yes to all Dudara says. Also *windows* so you can see what's going on outside. I don't want to feel like a visitor to the 'Joy.

And proper tea with tealeaves.

And friendly, kind staff - I don't want to be patronised for wanting yogurt rather than cream because my cholesterol is dangerous.

And, of course, prices that won't send you to the South Dublin Union.

luckat

Scoped out Wild Lily's. Nice cake, okay coffee (though to a true coffeecionado it may be superb coffee for all I know), nice staff. Downstairs two little Frenchy tables crammed into a window - nice but a fraction draughty. Upstairs looked a little refectory-like in late afternoon, but may be better at night when they're serving dinner, or at lunch time when you can dally.

Mr.Boots

dudara wrote: »

I don't find it particularly comfortable and it's a bit draughty. The cakes are excellent there, but the hot food is terribly hit and miss. My bf had chicken wings there recently and they were just microwaved slime. Awful. That would put me off the place permanently. The toilets need a major overhaul as well.

What I would like in a coffee/tea house:
1. Good cakes - so many places use pre-manufactured cakes made with gelatin and artifical cream etc. Proper cakes please. Cake is a sinful pleasure when you've been shopping or walking and there's nothing more disappointing than ordering cake, looking forward to it and getting some muck.

2. Comfortable seats - They can be a mix and match of sofas and chairs but just be comfortable, this is one thing that most Starbucks actually get fairly right.

3. Nice selection of other food - goes without saying really. But I felt cake deserved its own mention.

4. Decent coffee - a lot of coffee in Dublin is bitter and burnt. Plus, when I order an Americano, I don't want the cup/mug full to the brim. The coffee is watered down, slops all over the place and I want room for my milk. 3/4 full please. I'm tired of asking people to tip away the coffee they've just made for me.

5. Decent tea - served in teapots that don't drip.

6. Wifi - some like it, personally I rather read when having coffee. I just don't like lugging my laptop around me with, though now I have a new Wifi enabled phone, my attitude might be changing.

7. Toilets - clean and warm. So many toilets are cold. Plus, hooks on the back of the toilets doors for handbags and coats.

8. Well lit - naturally if possible. Otherwise, use lighting to make it as natural as possible.

EDIT: Just thought of this - somewhere that only charges about €1 - €1.50 for an espresso. I've walked out of many a coffee shop because they want €2+ for an espresso

How can any coffee house make money with people like you around....You have NO idea!!!
Think of it....Tea and Coffe travels thousands of miles....its then roasted and packaged....advertised....distributed......Barista makes it for you.....
You want to pay 1/1.50 euro for it....
Sit over it for 30minutes

So.....Coffee house owner pays for product....pays staff....pays for coffee machine....pays VAT...pays rates, insurance and rent ect ect.
After all that there isnt alot left from 1/1.50
Coffee and Tea are LUXURY items.....if your not prepared to pay for them i sugest you stay at home.

dudara

I want cheap espresso, not a coffee. Espresso should be cheap and cheerful. It's vastly overpriced in many places. It's a quick drink, not one you tend to linger over and prices should reflect that.

If I want to sit in the coffee house and linger, then paying more is reasonable.

I fully understand the economic theory behind your somewhat abusive argument. I just don't accept that argument 100% of the time.

There is a good chapter in "The Undercover Economist" on coffee shops and the like. It's quite illuminating when it comes to the pricing models used by coffee chains.

Gran Hermano

No one is going to sit around for an hour drinking an espresso.
Only in Ireland is an espresso priced the same as a latte/cappuccino.

Plenty of places in Italy where you'd pay under €1 for an espresso.
I'd normally just drink it at the counter and go.

Bars in Rome are to increase the price of a cup of coffee to an average of 80 cents in the next few weeks, according to the association of bar owners Assobar. The price hike will see the cost of an espresso in Rome – currently among the cheapest in all large Italian cities at between 65 and 75 cents – approach that in Bologna (90 cents), Milan (81 cents) and Florence (83 cents). Some bars had already raised prices by 18 September and consumer associations are calling on Rome bar-goers to strike as soon as the price increases are implemented across the board. “Taking into account the cost of the raw materials, we can say that of those 80 cents only 22 are the real cost of a cup of coffee, “ says Carlo Rienzi, president of consumer association Codacons. “The rest is profit.”
Bar owners have hit back saying increased costs of utilities, rents, personnel and raw materials have taken their toll, making the hikes inevitable.

http://www.wantedinrome.com/news/news.php?id_n=3638

dudara

Gran Hermano wrote: »

No one is going to sit around for an hour drinking an espresso.
Only in Ireland is an espresso priced the same as a latte/cappuccino.

Plenty of places in Italy where you'd pay under €1 for an espresso.
I'd normally just drink it at the counter and go.

I remember paying about 90c in Venice for an espresso about 5 years ago. And that was expensive by Italian standards. You'd drink your espresso standing at the counter, maybe along with a pastry and then off you go. Quick trip.

Why Irish places charge the same for a long coffee and an espresso is beyond me.

luckat

It depends.

Sometimes the very person who comes in and sits there for an hour over one pot of tea is the very one bringing in business, because s/he tells many friends about the place, and they then come in and buy meals.

Certainly in the couple of days since I tried out Wild Lily's, I've told three or four regular diners-out about this good local cafe, and at least two have come back and said "Tried it out; it's great - will be going back there."

Mr.Boots

dudara wrote: »

I want cheap espresso, not a coffee. Espresso should be cheap and cheerful. It's vastly overpriced in many places. It's a quick drink, not one you tend to linger over and prices should reflect that.

If I want to sit in the coffee house and linger, then paying more is reasonable.

I fully understand the economic theory behind your somewhat abusive argument. I just don't accept that argument 100% of the time.

There is a good chapter in "The Undercover Economist" on coffee shops and the like. It's quite illuminating when it comes to the pricing models used by coffee chains.

Apologies if i sounded "abusive"......it just ticks me off that people arnt prepared to pay for a quality product.
Like i said before, coffee is a luxury item...it costs more to produce coffee than most beers....and these cost 3/4/5 euros a bottle.
To compare prices between Ireland and other european cities is pointless, Ireland has higher wages, rates, vat ect ect than places named.
You talk about coffee chain stores....I dont know how these operate....im guessing they buy in bulk to maximise the profit, and mostly serve rubish (Starbucks)...Im talking about small corner coffe shops who serve quality.
To give you an example of such a place...a small cafe has opened recently near me.....its lovely inside...simple menu and realy good coffee, free newspapers, wifi ect...pretty much everthing you list as your "ideal coffee shop"......however....i sat in it one morning for an hour or more and worked out that they must have only turned over 30 euro in that one hour....the coffe here is priced at a level you would call expencive......not great eh?
Now imagine this place with "your" prices (it would make them half what they are at the moment)....it just wouldnt exist.
My message to you is....Enjoy coffee...but remember its a business and a profit must be made.
If you want cheaper "fair trade" coffee then something will have to give....the minimum wage will need to go down, the cost of diesel for trucks and ships, insurance rates, vat rates, property rents ect ect.
Lastly....Please only buy FAIR TRADE coffee....this is more expencive but of the upmost importance morally.
Ask in coffee houses if the coffe they use IS fair trade.

eclectichoney

In fairness, Dudara did say €1 to €1.50 for an espresso. Given that where i go anyway they use two shots in an americano and price it around the €2.50 mark, i don't think that's unreasonable. Also very few people drink espresso anyway, or when they do, drink doubles. She wasn't saying all coffees should be €1 to €1.50, I don't think anyone would agree with that.

I do find places that charge the same for take-away coffees and sit in alightly annoying. That's what I loved about Rhubarb cafe on Merrion Street €1.65 for a really nice take away coffee, around the €2 mark for sit-in (ridiculously good prices for the quality of the coffee imho) I know two pricing systems are difficult to run though and can appreciate that, plus how do you police it with any degree of accuracy (you can't exactly go up and acost people sitting down with take away cups!)

Gran Hermano

Mr Boots, I feel you're missing the point that both myself and I believe
Dudara are making and that is why is espresso in Ireland priced at
almost the same level as a cappuccino/latte? Especially if your average
espresso drinker is only on the premises for 10 minutes (compared to the typical cappuccino/mocha/latte drinker who might linger like yourself
for up to an hour. I have no problem paying whatever the going price is for
a coffee or espresso and milk-based drink if I'm going to spend time on the
premises.

And as for fair-trade, I personally couldn't care less as long as the quality
of the coffee and service are up to scratch. In my opinion fair-trade is nothing but a marketing-gimmick at this stage and people jump on the bandwagon with a misguided need to unnecessarily ease their social
consciences.

And for the record, you'd never find me in a Starbucks

Mr.Boots

Gran Hermano wrote: »

Mr Boots, I feel you're missing the point that both myself and I believe
Dudara are making and that is why is espresso in Ireland priced at
almost the same level as a cappuccino/latte? Especially if your average
espresso drinker is only on the premises for 10 minutes (compared to the typical cappuccino/mocha/latte drinker who might linger like yourself
for up to an hour. I have no problem paying whatever the going price is for
a coffee or espresso and milk-based drink if I'm going to spend time on the
premises.

And as for fair-trade, I personally couldn't care less as long as the quality
of the coffee and service are up to scratch. In my opinion fair-trade is nothing but a marketing-gimmick at this stage and people jump on the bandwagon with a misguided need to unnecessarily ease their social
consciences.

And for the record, you'd never find me in a Starbucks

Fair point about the time an espresso drinker lingers....very true
If the average price of an espresso is 2euro....a latte 3euro?????
My point is....its the coffee thats expencive....the milk is dirt cheap...hence a smaller price difference than you would imagine.
Both drinks (espresso and latte) require the same skill and coffee machine to produce, coffee machines are very very expencive (as are staff)
As for Fair Trade.....you should be ashamed of yourself for not caring.....coffee comes from some of the poorest countries on the planet....Fair Trade allows the coffee workers to put food on the table.....thats all....they earn tiny amounts....1.50euro a day in some palces.........Non Fair Trade workers might only earn 75 cents a day, their families are litterly starving.

dudara

Mr.Boots wrote: »

As for Fair Trade.....you should be ashamed of yourself for not caring.....coffee comes from some of the poorest countries on the planet....Fair Trade allows the coffee workers to put food on the table.....thats all....they earn tiny amounts....1.50euro a day in some palces.........Non Fair Trade workers might only earn 75 cents a day, their families are litterly starving.

Let me play devil's advocate here for one minute and give you an argument that any basic economist should be able to present.

Coffee is an easy crop to grow and hence poor workers start growing it in an effort to earn a wage. Hence the market is saturated and low prices are paid. Paying more to some farmers means that other even poorer people see a gap in the market to produce cheap coffee and start growing their own and selling at a cheaper price.

What I'm trying to say is that the injustices in this world extend beyond what buying fair trade coffee can fix. For a lot of people, buying fair trade is a panacea to that SUV sitting in their driveway or whatever chip they are carrying on their shoulder.

Mr.Boots

dudara wrote: »

Let me play devil's advocate here for one minute and give you an argument that any basic economist should be able to present.

Coffee is an easy crop to grow and hence poor workers start growing it in an effort to earn a wage. Hence the market is saturated and low prices are paid. Paying more to some farmers means that other even poorer people see a gap in the market to produce cheap coffee and start growing their own and selling at a cheaper price.

What I'm trying to say is that the injustices in this world extend beyond what buying fair trade coffee can fix. For a lot of people, buying fair trade is a panacea to that SUV sitting in their driveway or whatever chip they are carrying on their shoulder.

Your corect...the market is flooded with coffee ( supply is about 8% above demand at present)....prices are at an all time low.
You are WRONG saying "that its an easy crop to grow".....A coffe plant takes five years to mature before producing a crop of only 2lbs of beans
Each bean is hand picked .
A coffee tree has a lifespan of 20/25 years.
There is a band around the equator where it is warm enough and humid enough to grow coffee.
Good soil is also very inportant.
There is a great skill in growing coffee.
Poor people cant start growing coffee "willy nilly"...thay cant aford the palnts or the land to plant on and they dont have the know how.
Of couse buying Fair Trade isnt going to fix the world....it never claimed it would.....all its doing is passing on more profit to the grower and the picker than non Fair Trade coffee......
Coffee changes hands about 150 times before it ends up in your cup...everyone takes their cut.....Fair Trade gives the growers/workers a more generous cut.
As for it making people feel morally better.........im glad if it dose, it means more will buy it.

dudara

Mr.Boots wrote: »

As for it making people feel morally better.........im glad if it dose, it means more will buy it.

But it doesn't address the core problems. While it undoubtedly helps some people, it really exists to help the smug feel smugger about their charitable actions.

Black Swan

See, all we need to go with this debate on the merits of the coffee growing industry is a cozy javahouse with comfy chairs, grand sounds, the place reeking of fresh grounds, a selection of brews to choose from, and a free hotspot connection and power plug for my laptop. Then we could really solve the world's problems as we sip.

luckat

Saw a good example of coffeehouse economics today - at least, I assume that's what it was.

I was in the National Gallery cafe, and at the next table were two women who'd finished their meal. "Would you fancy coffee?" one said to the other, who replied "Ah, we'll get some at Cafe Sol."

Would I be right in thinking that Cafe Sol's coffee would be cheaper? These two looked like people who would like a cake with a cup of coffee, so the business being lost wasn't just coffee but an arguable cake each too.

sedohre

Thanks Blue Lagoon for putting the thread back on track, it felt like it was getting a bit serious for the origional question --

" What makes for a great coffee shop?"

dudara

luckat wrote: »

the business being lost wasn't just coffee but an arguable cake each too.

Coffee shops don't do enough to capitalise on the cake trade. I would regularly visit a coffee house with good coffee and cake. Guilty treat and all that.

Mr.Boots

dudara wrote: »

But it doesn't address the core problems. While it undoubtedly helps some people, it really exists to help the smug feel smugger about their charitable actions.

Im sorry to have gone off the topic.....
Just to reply to what you said.......
Fair Trade dose not exist to make smug people feel smugger, what a ludacris and uninformed thing to say......Amnesty International, Concern, Oxfam, Trócaire all support Fair Trade.
It exists to HELP people!!
It isnt just coffee either.....its rice, bananas, cocoa sugar, cotton, tea ect. ect. the list is long.
Clearly you havnt a clue about this topic.
All i was trying to do was inform....didnt think i would have to fight my corner on this one......However....It takes all sorts:(