Riding aids! (Opinions)?

togster

1.Draw Reins; i see alot of people using them here in Sweden. Its like they forgot how it is with your legs to hand. I have ridden horses that were definetly ridden alot with them and sometime you need a horse to lift them up!

2. Spurs; only if im stuck and not too long. I guess they are used as an aid they are ok. ie on a horse a little dead or un-responssive. Its amazing how many people use them all the time. You end up with having to use longer spurs to get a response.

3. Rapping!! Contoversion i know but pretty widespread. I don't see anything majorly wrong with it now and again if you have lazy front feets. Rapping to me would be securing a pool NOT rising it up when the horse jumps.!

Any one have any opinions. Just to get a discussion going on these and other "aids"??:)

johnny_g

a bad horseman always needs more tools....

not a fan of any aids like u mentioned... they never have a good long term effect... you should be able to get a horse on the bit without drawreins if you make the effort and have the know how.... the problem with them is that the horse leans on them and realises they're gone the second they are taken off.. (if used incorrectly, and they usually are.)

spurs are not so bad and can help but im still not a fan

Rapping is they ultimate NO!! ... ive heard of horses with huge potential being ruined by people rapping them... dont do it...!!!

johnny_g

johnny_g wrote: »

a bad horseman always needs more tools....

not a fan of any aids like u mentioned... they never have a good long term effect... you should be able to get a horse on the bit without drawreins if you make the effort and have the know how.... the problem with them is that the horse leans on them and realises they're gone the second they are taken off.. (if used incorrectly, and they usually are.)

spurs are not so bad and can help but im still not a fan

Rapping is they ultimate NO!! ... ive heard of horses with huge potential being ruined by people rapping them... dont do it...!!!

I'd agree with that.. I never used any 'extra' aids, spurs maybe but only on rare occasions.

I have heard about people using rapping to train hunters to jump wire and things, and have heard horror stories of how they ended up.

fits

I've no problem with spurs as they can aid refinement in higher level riding. I dont agree with them to 'speed up' a lazy horse though. As long as the rider has a steady lower leg, they're fine.
I really cant understand why so many people wear them out hunting. So not necessary.

togster

fits wrote: »

I really cant understand why so many people wear them out hunting. So not necessary.

Yeah this is kind of ridiculous! Lon pair of spurs and a gag!! WTF:eek:

TheB

I dunno see.. I might have to throw a spanner in the works here as I can see the benefits of correctly used gadgets.. In certain cases..

I agree with what has been said in the posts above on a whole but I think gadgets be they draw reins (age old arguments about these!), spurs etc can be useful.. I don't think it has anything to do with Good horse man/Less tools etc.. Many of the worlds top riders use gadgets - in particular draw reins - where necessary.. And sometime they do have a place.. Obviously used badly or incorrectly they do nothing more than cause more problems.. But you don't need a set of drawreins to create these problems.. Look at the use of RollKur.. (which I find unpleasant)

I have and do use draw reins - and as with many other people I have spoken to - I used them to help with a problem the horse had already developed.. In G's case a bad rearing habit caused mainly by a lack of confidence .. He used to rear habitually when frightened or put under pressure (and I mean vertical shadow boxing style - and then once up there would try to run away from what ever it was he was frightened of backwards - on 2 legs..nice..)

He had learnt to do it previous to coming to me.. With draw reins on he couldn't get his head past the point of no return to stand up and therefore I was able to slowly increase his confidence in the situations that caused the rear until the rearing stopped.. Without the draw reins he would encounter the "issue" then when you tried to encourage him to go forward/deal with the pressure he'd just stand up - taking focus from the problem -which we then never solved as too busy trying not to die.. Without the rear we could teach him that things were not so scary - he had to face them.. Then he'd realise it wasn't going to kill him... The cause of the rear could be anything as innocent as a shadow or the rider asking for a bit more engagement (harder work for him = pressure = rear)..
If he is very fresh and being particularly stupid I do from time to time still use them - they remain loose until his head reaches a certain position when the pressure comes into play.. and he knows they are there - which helps..

I have never and would never use draw reins to force an outline.. It doesn't work. As Togster says - just creates a false outline with hocks following on from miles behind.. So no engagement or true impulsion.. The horse just runs on with a bent neck and eventually rides behind the vertical with stilted shoulder movement..

I semi-agree with the gag/spurs comment - again, decision based depending on the riders ability and the animal they are riding and whether they are correct in the reason they are wearing them.. With both G and some previous horses - especially Monty - I have worn spurs although both were very sharp to the leg and could be strong to ride.. G wears a Pessoa sweet iron Gag.. Monty wore an american sliding gag and now and again a double bridle.. They were brakes and steering.. Spurs are not for speed..which is where people go wrong..and therefore use them wrongly..

Spurs are for precision and control .. i.e to ensure a wilful horse cannot ignore your leg aid.. I have never hunted G with spurs only SJ but I did hunt & XC Monty with them - for the same reason outlined above re ignoring your leg.. Monty was so quick and strong XC (I evented) that he wore a Citation bridle but I still had to wear spurs to make myself heard through his excitement.. Nothing more terrifying than coming to a solid 1.20m XC fence on a horse that isn't listening to your leg.

I'm with Fits on the fact that wearing spurs on a slow/unbalanced horse will not help.. Schooling will - especially the Spencer approach .. Spurs on a well schooled but lazy horse are acceptable as a reminder.. And all of this is assuming the rider has a strong enough leg position to wear spurs.. My pet hate is seeing muppets wearing spurs to make them look good and their lower legs swinging like mad jabbing the poor pony/horse in the ribs continually.. Grrr.. Makes me mad that does..:mad:

Rapping is a major no no - I would be disgusted if anyone I know resorted to it - and that’s what it is - what people resort to when the are unable to either

* ride a horse properly to a fence giving it the best chance of clearing it
* can't accept the horse is not scopy enough for the height (forcing it to jump higher)
* can't be bothered to spend time tidying up technique to create a careful jumper..

Revolting practice.

BTW - we never taught our horses to jump wire etc by rapping.. Used the electrical tape approach which didn't make them afraid - just encouraged them to look for a fence when the rider collected them to jump.. Works a treat.

I do use another "gadget" regularly which I view as invaluable actually - a pessoa system for lunge work.. Fantastic to help balance, encourage to work from being and develop topline.. The horse learns without a rider to interfere and is not invasive.. If the horse is working "wrong" all that happens is that the pulley system creates pressure in the problem area to release .. As it works on the pulleys the horse cannot lean or set on the bridle.. Brilliant system.

Like many things - gadgets are helpful in moderation when used by someone who is competent enough and knows the effects of the item.. Why they are using it (have they tried other approaches) and exactly how to use it.. Sadly this is not always the case...hence they get bad press..

Well - that essay is my tuppence worth..

Bx

togster

Great post B. I agree with you on alot of things. We used to use white electric tape to teach our horses to jump wire. i have never heard of anyone rap a horse with wire Like you said it teaches them to watch for wire as opposed to lift there legs higher. What i see as acceptable , altough probably not rapping in the known sens is using heavier poles or poles less likely to roll off with a slight brush. I mean a horse should respect the pole.

Also on the pessoa system i would have to say that used properly it can be excellent. However like B said in the wrong hands any of these aids can do more harm than good.

togster

togster wrote: »

We used to use white electric tape to teach our horses to jump wire. i have never heard of anyone rap a horse with wire

I have, and it went very wrong for the person.

Ruined what would have been an excellent hunter.

togster

Deleted User wrote: »

I have, and it went very wrong for the person.

Ruined what would have been an excellent hunter.

Jesus, some people shouldn't be allowed have horses:mad:

FLASHDANCE

TheB wrote: »

I dunno see.. I might have to throw a spanner in the works here as I can see the benefits of correctly used gadgets.. In certain cases..

I agree with what has been said in the posts above on a whole but I think gadgets be they draw reins (age old arguments about these!), spurs etc can be useful.. I don't think it has anything to do with Good horse man/Less tools etc.. Many of the worlds top riders use gadgets - in particular draw reins - where necessary.. And sometime they do have a place.. Obviously used badly or incorrectly they do nothing more than cause more problems.. But you don't need a set of drawreins to create these problems.. Look at the use of RollKur.. (which I find unpleasant)

I have and do use draw reins - and as with many other people I have spoken to - I used them to help with a problem the horse had already developed.. In G's case a bad rearing habit caused mainly by a lack of confidence .. He used to rear habitually when frightened or put under pressure (and I mean vertical shadow boxing style - and then once up there would try to run away from what ever it was he was frightened of backwards - on 2 legs..nice..)

He had learnt to do it previous to coming to me.. With draw reins on he couldn't get his head past the point of no return to stand up and therefore I was able to slowly increase his confidence in the situations that caused the rear until the rearing stopped.. Without the draw reins he would encounter the "issue" then when you tried to encourage him to go forward/deal with the pressure he'd just stand up - taking focus from the problem -which we then never solved as too busy trying not to die.. Without the rear we could teach him that things were not so scary - he had to face them.. Then he'd realise it wasn't going to kill him... The cause of the rear could be anything as innocent as a shadow or the rider asking for a bit more engagement (harder work for him = pressure = rear)..
If he is very fresh and being particularly stupid I do from time to time still use them - they remain loose until his head reaches a certain position when the pressure comes into play.. and he knows they are there - which helps..

I have never and would never use draw reins to force an outline.. It doesn't work. As Togster says - just creates a false outline with hocks following on from miles behind.. So no engagement or true impulsion.. The horse just runs on with a bent neck and eventually rides behind the vertical with stilted shoulder movement..

I semi-agree with the gag/spurs comment - again, decision based depending on the riders ability and the animal they are riding and whether they are correct in the reason they are wearing them.. With both G and some previous horses - especially Monty - I have worn spurs although both were very sharp to the leg and could be strong to ride.. G wears a Pessoa sweet iron Gag.. Monty wore an american sliding gag and now and again a double bridle.. They were brakes and steering.. Spurs are not for speed..which is where people go wrong..and therefore use them wrongly..

Spurs are for precision and control .. i.e to ensure a wilful horse cannot ignore your leg aid.. I have never hunted G with spurs only SJ but I did hunt & XC Monty with them - for the same reason outlined above re ignoring your leg.. Monty was so quick and strong XC (I evented) that he wore a Citation bridle but I still had to wear spurs to make myself heard through his excitement.. Nothing more terrifying than coming to a solid 1.20m XC fence on a horse that isn't listening to your leg.

I'm with Fits on the fact that wearing spurs on a slow/unbalanced horse will not help.. Schooling will - especially the Spencer approach .. Spurs on a well schooled but lazy horse are acceptable as a reminder.. And all of this is assuming the rider has a strong enough leg position to wear spurs.. My pet hate is seeing muppets wearing spurs to make them look good and their lower legs swinging like mad jabbing the poor pony/horse in the ribs continually.. Grrr.. Makes me mad that does..:mad:

Rapping is a major no no - I would be disgusted if anyone I know resorted to it - and that’s what it is - what people resort to when the are unable to either

* ride a horse properly to a fence giving it the best chance of clearing it
* can't accept the horse is not scopy enough for the height (forcing it to jump higher)
* can't be bothered to spend time tidying up technique to create a careful jumper..

Revolting practice.

BTW - we never taught our horses to jump wire etc by rapping.. Used the electrical tape approach which didn't make them afraid - just encouraged them to look for a fence when the rider collected them to jump.. Works a treat.

I do use another "gadget" regularly which I view as invaluable actually - a pessoa system for lunge work.. Fantastic to help balance, encourage to work from being and develop topline.. The horse learns without a rider to interfere and is not invasive.. If the horse is working "wrong" all that happens is that the pulley system creates pressure in the problem area to release .. As it works on the pulleys the horse cannot lean or set on the bridle.. Brilliant system.

Like many things - gadgets are helpful in moderation when used by someone who is competent enough and knows the effects of the item.. Why they are using it (have they tried other approaches) and exactly how to use it.. Sadly this is not always the case...hence they get bad press..

Well - that essay is my tuppence worth..

Bx

Hi B,
That must of took a while to write haha,
But excellent points you made i must say id have to agree with you 100%, Now days people load there horses with all sorts of gadgets ie throw a combintaion bit or a gag bit in the horse because the top riders use them when really the horse can be ridden in a snaffle and go perfectly well in it, draw reins are not used in the proper way that they are designed for, many riders i see put there horses in draw reins and have them so tight that the poor horse is forced to rear and go backwards, they arent meant to used like that have them at a loose rein and when the horse does lower its head loosen the reins etc,
Spurs i do use spurs on my show jumpers as im only a small person and only use them when needed as 1 of my horses is quiet hot and fast and the other is quiet sluggish,
Rapping god how could people do this, im sooo against this altogether, I knew people who had the best of ponies 128 + 138 and there trainer/ coach rapped these horses in 1 case as the ponie was jumpin the trainer rapped the ponie going over the fence and the horse literally somersaulted and nearly broke its kneck,...these ponies jumped the top of the wing without being rapped how higher are they meant to jump...
thats my part
Flashdance

Siogfinsceal

Hi Togster,

Draw Reins;
I use these because I know how to use them. I hate that theres so much backlash caused by riders who don't. Yes, If used incorrectly(and sadly they often are) you will result in a horse with a stiff neck, head set against the riders hands and little use of the back end. However - if used correctly they are of great benefit especially compared to aids such as a bungee, because with draw reins you can reward the horse when the desired behaviour is demonstrated. they should never be a substitute for poor riding but sadly they often are - its so frustrating hearing a poor rider say 'I cant get him on the bit so I will use draw reins!!'


2. Spurs; I use them on many horses. It allows me to refine my leg aid and to be more subtle and precise.

3. Rapping!! I am not keen on this. I would rather loose school the horse as in most cases you will find that horses jump well and balanced when a rider is not interfering.
it is maddening to see horses at shows who have obviously had their perception altered by someone lifting the pole at the last second. hardly a level playing field for riders who do not do this

togster

Siogfinsceal wrote: »

it is maddening to see horses at shows who have obviously had their perception altered by someone lifting the pole at the last second. hardly a level playing field for riders who do not do this

Ha. Was at an event a few years ago and some international pony riders were there. In the warm up the trainer had a single pole on the ground. The ponies would canter towards the pole and ballon a good 4 ft over this pole. HMMM..... suspicious. Have seen some horse who have obviously been rapped and have lost their confidence too.

Siogfinsceal

we had our boots checked at the rds a few years ago at RC champs. Some foreign competitiors had been using irritants in the tendon boots so that the horses legs blistered if they knocked- v sad. Saw one competitor walk sideways over a single pole to deliberately get horse to knock before he went in. Poor horse got upset when he knocked (gee I wonder why) and then went in and jumped clear.

FLASHDANCE

Hi

What riding club are you apart of mind you askin??
Yeah i think it is only right for officials to be checking this, weighted boots did you ever feel the weight of theses, Oh yes have heard all them horror stories, Buting nails in the boots so when the knock they would stick in to the horse, and the irritant, how would the rider like getting irritant on there legs and made jump poles oh it makes me soo mad how people could do these things its awfull and pathetic that someone would do something like that,

Siogfinsceal

Hi Flashdance. dont worry it wasnt anyone in riding club who was doing it! It was foreign competitors in the international comps. We were respresnting west leinster region in the team event. The officials when you go to the RDS now check passport(as some Riding clubs were caught before qualifying on one horse and competing on another) and the horse for any injuries.Anyway the horse I was riding was TB and had an old rub on her leg where sand got under her brushing boot. They started quizzing me but let me in in the end. Only then were people telling me why they reacted like that - they had seen similar marks where they checked horse and boots and found irritants. sad to think people will go to that extreme isnt it?

weighted boots are sadly all the range now and allowable in SJAI now once the horse is over 7 - madness.

dollydishmop

Spurs, draw reins....both effective 'aids' when used correctly (which IMHO is rare with regards to draw reins!). Both verge on abuse when used incorrectly.
Some competition rules list spurs as compulsory. They were certainly compulsory for the Junior FEI dressage tests. With min and max sizes given. Smallest was 1/4", and largest was 1" IIRC. You could buy dummy spurs, I'm sure you still can, which just had a small, rounded knub instead of a 'spur'....ideal for those folks with wobbly lower legs!

Rapping...would never be considered as an 'aid' surely? Its plain abuse whicever angle you look at it from!