Martial Arts and Doorwork

Dragan

Just looking for some opinions after Roper kicked off a little thought from another thread!

I started doing doors when i was 18, it was a handy job to help me pay for college. I only really stepped away from the game a few months ago with no intention of going back so thats about 8+ years experience.

In my time i saw many different styles and types of doormen from varying backgrounds.

My question to you folks is, which MA do you feel would be the best for helping in any possible hands on situation on a door? I'm not saying it is an intrinsic part of being a good doorman, some of the best guys i was lucky enough to work with had no MA experience at all.....I guess i'm just curious about that what's and why's?

cowzerp

In a 1 on 1 situation where your goal is to remove the person from the club i'd say BJJ or something like Akido..

in a fight situation where you had to hit multiple attackers in defensive mode i'd say boxing, hit fast hard and stay on your feet!

Most doormen are chimps anyway and cause more hassle than any scumbags in the premises, not having a go at you-i done a bit myself as do a couple of my brothers..its not for me as im not the most patient and dont like hitting drunks either!!

mark.leonard

You're better off shying away from a striking art given the current comp culture we have.
Restraint through effective grappling is the way to go. If you are outnumbered, and this happens regularly, then you need to consider seriously why you chose this door to work on.

Have to say Paul I resent you saying "most doormen are chimps....causing more hassle...", if someone who has done the door makes statements like that, what chance do doormen have of shaking that kind of rep?

Some of the finest men I know are people I have met working the door. I agree there have been bad eggs as well, but they are very much in the minority.

arybvtcw0eolkf

A mixed bag this one!.

When the fur flies I'd say any sort of striking style, ie kickboxing, TKD, M.T.. Anything equiping you to hit fast and keep the scumbags at a distance.

But then your open to every witness in the bar/club saying how you beat up 'Joe Bloggs' for nothing. Plus your open to hand injuries from hitting bare knuckled.

For simply removing someone I'd say Judo before BJJ because (Dragan I'm sure you've been in this situ more than once) when your removing someone and all is well its grand, you walk them as far as the door then the realisation hits them that they're being fvcked out and its only then they resist. Judo allows for quick chokes, foot sweeps, hip throws etc.. ie quick takedowns into a very quick submission position, I don't believe BJJ will equip you with this as quick and easy as Judo will.

Something else, big physical strenght!. I've worked with lots of brilliant lads on the doors, some great fighters too. Two of the best (Jon know's them well) were terriffic TKD lads and street fighters. Only thing which let them down was phyical strenght. So almost everything went to a full blown scrap.

Sorry for the long one, but thats been my experience.

Before any of the K.M. lads throw in their worth, forget it, that sh*t will get you owned in the real world!.

cowzerp

mark.leonard wrote: »

Have to say Paul I resent you saying "most doormen are chimps....causing more hassle...", if someone who has done the door makes statements like that, what chance do doormen have of shaking that kind of rep?

Mark i got offered doorwork because i was a boxer! not because i was good with dealing with people. dont take it personally but you know this goes on too.

The other day i was asked for i'd going into a pub in swords, the lad with me was only 20 but im 28 and dont carry id!! i was dressed smart and had no drinks at that stage, i stayed calm and bid them g'day! they could of made a situation imo as i could of and did feel bullied..

Most Door men are there to be big and imposing looking or there because they are known to be hard! eventually all door men will have to carry out courses to be allowed to do the door work like in the u'k but till then we are going to have plenty of chimps on the doors too..

The best door man i ever knew was average size fella, very composed and smart and was not tough at all-he just calmed situations and never really had to deal with strife..

cowzerp

Mairt wrote: »

For simply removing someone I'd say Judo before BJJ because (Dragan I'm sure you've been in this situ more than once) when your removing someone and all is well its grand, you walk them as far as the door then the realisation hits them that they're being fvcked out and its only then they resist. Judo allows for quick chokes, foot sweeps, hip throws etc.. ie quick takedowns into a very quick submission position, I don't believe BJJ will equip you with this as quick and easy as Judo will.

Makes sense

arybvtcw0eolkf

Paul in Swords there's two lads, just two, who I'd work with and consider excellent door staff.

One is the manager of the Russian bar (upstairs in The Star) and one the head doorman of the bar across the road (trying not to name names).

One has a TKD/Kickboxing background (plus a national boxing coach) and the other has a Judo/Sambo background.

Dragan

mark.leonard wrote: »

You're better off shying away from a striking art given the current comp culture we have.
Restraint through effective grappling is the way to go. If you are outnumbered, and this happens regularly, then you need to consider seriously why you chose this door to work on.

This line would largely sum up my own feelings as well. I find people will largely revert to what they know and those grounded in a striking art tend to rely on that.

Personally, unless they have thrown the first blow , i can never think of ANY reason to have to strike a punter..... it's just poor form in my opinion.

To follow on with what Mairt mentioned, i always found my greatest advantage on the door was raw physical strength. Years of gym work and too much time spent getting stood on on the sports pitch gave me usable speed and power.... i would go so far as to say FAR above 99% of people i would ever come into contact with on the door.

Everyone expects me to be strong, but they never expect me to be quick..... that has helped a lot in the past!

arybvtcw0eolkf

Dragan wrote: »

i would go so far as to say FAR above 99% of people i would ever come into contact with on the door.

Everyone expects me to be strong, but they never expect me to be quick..... that has helped a lot in the past!

Funny you should say that.

The last door I worked on, I worked alone. For three year's I worked that door by myself and people would ask was I mad.

I used to tell people "I'm confident there's not one person in there stronger, faster or better than me". In three year's there I was one fight!. Best door I ever worked and never had to rely on someone doing a runner..

Oh yea, working alone I learned alot about diplomacy too

paddyc

talking is the best art you need for doing the door


I was doing thai while i done the door and have to say it was muck for door work....


Judo and Bjj are the way to go if you have to go that is...

I seen judo mick in actrion one night and christ was it impressive... a good few of the door staff in newbridge train judo and have to say it very nice watching them work cos


thats some turn out for the books... me coming on and dissing thai


paddy

mark.leonard

cowzerp wrote: »

Mark i got offered doorwork because i was a boxer! not because i was good with dealing with people. dont take it personally but you know this goes on too.

What goes on - people getting offered door work because they box? I have never been asked about my martial training for any door interview I have ever done. If someone offered me a job because I was a fighter then I would run a mile from a head doorman whose attitude is 180 degrees wrong from the get go. I never hired anyone because I thought they could fight, my main criteria was always confidence and conversational skill. After that seeing how they handled pressure and incidents decided if they stayed or not.

cowzerp wrote: »

The other day i was asked for i'd going into a pub in swords, the lad with me was only 20 but im 28 and dont carry id!! i was dressed smart and had no drinks at that stage, i stayed calm and bid them g'day! they could of made a situation imo as i could of and did feel bullied..

I would need more detail about this story to judge what you are trying to say to be honest. You were asked for ID so you felt bullied?

cowzerp wrote: »

Most Door men are there to be big and imposing looking or there because they are known to be hard! eventually all door men will have to carry out courses to be allowed to do the door work like in the u'k but till then we are going to have plenty of chimps on the doors too

That law is already in and all doormen have to be certified by the PSA or be able to produce evidence that they are in the process of acquiring certification to be allowed to work the door now.
I think that the kind of bars and clubs we have seen/frequented might be different. I have worked in a good few places in Galway and in Cork and not being a drinker I usually notice the kinds of guys that are working.

Don't misunderstand me, there are plenty muppets doing the door, just like there are plenty muppets doing carpentry, teaching, driving taxis, software engineering and so forth. I just think that in my experience, obviously different from yours, its the minority that are big ignorant power tripping morons and not the majority. I certainly wouldn't work or frequent a place where the reverse was true.

cowzerp

mark.leonard wrote: »

I would need more detail about this story to judge what you are trying to say to be honest. You were asked for ID so you felt bullied?

o'k i did not feel bullied as such if you know what i mean! as im quite confident, but i felt harrassed or persecuted or whatever sounds better!! but other people would be highly offended, i dont look under 18 anyway and was not drunk or aggressive, doorman was on a power buzz


a lot of doormen are on power buzzes and dont have there licences that they should have-i knew it was coming in but did not know it was already in!

Glad to hear you employ people for the right reasons, that was the point i was trying to make-so i'd be happier going to the premises where your guys work then..

irish fighter

Some of the finest men I know are people I have met working the door. I agree there have been bad eggs as well, but they are very much in the minority.[/QUOTE]

i would agree with mark i have been working on the door for 6 years now
and there is a lot of good man out there keeping the pubs and clubs safe
for people to enjoy and i find talking to people works better than hitting them


Tk

Waterford vale tudo

Dragan

With regard to the talking aspect, i got offered my first ever door job because i managed to talk 4 guys out of giving me a hiding..... i was told if i can talk people out of hitting me i can talk people out of doing anything..... not quite sure it that was a compliment or not!

weemate

I have worked the door in Belfast for around 16 years and anyone that knows me can testafy that Im not the biggest guy in the trade.Iam fully licensed by the council up here which is mandatory now and I have to say that since the badge system came in the standards of door staff have slipped a lot.A lot of the staff working doors in Belfast recently really are on a power trip.Most ' old timers' I know wouldnt pass the time of day with them.
Now to answer your question..I have to agree with the poster who stated that the best art to help you on the door is to be able to talk your way out of any nonsense!

Killme00

Mairt wrote: »

For simply removing someone I'd say Judo before BJJ because (Dragan I'm sure you've been in this situ more than once) when your removing someone and all is well its grand, you walk them as far as the door then the realisation hits them that they're being fvcked out and its only then they resist. Judo allows for quick chokes, foot sweeps, hip throws etc.. ie quick takedowns into a very quick submission position, I don't believe BJJ will equip you with this as quick and easy as Judo will.

Quoted for truth. Judo is excellent for restraining and removing most people from the premises.

As Mairt also stated i would agree that the ability to put someone down quickly when needed is also a necessity. If you do have to get into an altercation, ending it as quickly as possible is best all round and physical strenght will help you do that.

yomchi

Dragan wrote: »

Just looking for some opinions after Roper kicked off a little thought from another thread!

I started doing doors when i was 18, it was a handy job to help me pay for college. I only really stepped away from the game a few months ago with no intention of going back so thats about 8+ years experience.

In my time i saw many different styles and types of doormen from varying backgrounds.

My question to you folks is, which MA do you feel would be the best for helping in any possible hands on situation on a door? I'm not saying it is an intrinsic part of being a good doorman, some of the best guys i was lucky enough to work with had no MA experience at all.....I guess i'm just curious about that what's and why's?

I haven't read through the rest of the post so forgive me if i'm repeating anything.

My question to you folks is, which MA do you feel would be the best for helping in any possible hands on situation on a door?

None. Why? because all martial arts train within its own curiculum governed by rules.
What you can learn is a competent delivery system, work on your main shots, learn some restraining techniques and most importantly make sure you're (if you're new to the game) partnered up with an experienced member of staff.
You could do some door work courses run by people who are door staff, for door staff, which will include all the necessary tools of the trade, including how to deal with customers approprietly. Door work is not all about figting but managing the security of the patrons and the building. One of the best door men I've ever worked with rarely ever through a shot in anger, but managed to neary always talk the situation down and if he couldn't, the door was locked and the gardai called.
Removing a potential problem from the premises requires good team work, a door man should never be on his own removing a patron.

In conclusion, martial arts training is for martial arts and combat sports, door training is different - albeit an understanding of body mechanics help when you have to strike or restrain. Stick to a specific course/system that trains without rules in mind.
Just on grappling, in a massive brawl, (was in the middle of a traveller christening one time) the last place you should strive to be is on the deck applyng an arm bar (or whatever) to some gorrilla who 1) will take a lump out of your leg and 2 has a million relations around him baying for blood, you're an easy target down there!

mark.leonard

1) will take a lump out of your leg

Maybe if you suck at arm bars he will, but I don't think anyone will advocate arm baring someone in the middle of a gang brawl for the second reaosn you said.

Dragan

Excellent input Jon! Cheers.

Tim_Murphy

My question to you folks is, which MA do you feel would be the best for helping in any possible hands on situation on a door?

From very limited, but quiet active (nice word for it) time spent doing security in a night club I would say for obvious reasons standing grappling skills. Basically the clinch I'd done in MMA plus a few specific restraints used to escort gentlemen from the premises. Worked well for me as ~70kg guy so there must be something to it.

On the subject in general, I've seen a few guys get stuck into by bouncers who new better, guys who waited until they were out of security camers view. Some people are just d^%ks I guess. There definately are some guys in that line of work for the wrong reasons.

yomchi

mark.leonard wrote: »

Maybe if you suck at arm bars he will, but I don't think anyone will advocate arm baring someone in the middle of a gang brawl for the second reaosn you said.

Yep i pretty much do suck at them

But what goes on the disc comes off the disc! in other words what you train for, you do!

mark.leonard

Jon wrote: »

But what goes on the disc comes off the disc! in other words what you train for, you do!

What? Not sure what you are getting at....

Nothingcompares

Again, the bouncers' personality is far far more important than his martial arts training. I'd also make the point that there are 2 types of bouncer out there (well I'm sure someone who works in the trade can make further distinctions) there's the guy on the door that refuses people coming in and has to operate outside the premise (well at the door) and the guys on the inside.

I think the guy at the door needs to look impressive and act impressive. Doesn't nessecarily have to look massive but I think this is an advantage. Confidence, charisma, authority are important traits. Also the ability to control personal interaction, by that I mean simply, knowing when to make and break eye contact, how to engage someone to challenge them before they engage you etc.

The guys in the inside that keep an eye out for trouble just need to be observant and good decision makers. Know when to step in with a firm but non-provocative hand on the shoulder to "de-escalate a situation" and know when to hop on a guy/guys and drag them out.

I've had experience with bouncers from a number of different martial arts backgrounds, in fact, I think I've been in a couple of places operated by people who have already contributed to this thread.

One of the most impressive is an escrimidor who I saw leg it across camden street to American Football tackle some guy trying to make an escape from bouncers from another club.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Tim_Murphy wrote: »

There definately are some guys in that line of work for the wrong reasons.

Like the promiscuous sex maybe ?

Tim_Murphy

Mairt wrote: »

Like the promiscuous sex maybe ?

Well I couldn't possibly comment on that!

Boru.

Any tool / MA is useful if you know how to use it, but in my opinion and experience simple works best.