ATH2: Defending champ Vince135792003

Bounty Hunter

For those not used to ATH, its an american show on ESPN where a number of panelists/experts make arguments an a certain topic. The host awards points for each response depending on how well argued their point is, not neccesarily if he agrees with their point but how well they back up their argument. Obviously the winner is the person with the highest number of points. I think this format could actually work quite well here if anyone was interested, afterall there are a number of people here who like to think of themselves as experts on all things wrestling related, here is a chance to prove it.

each 2day for 10days i will post a topic for example from ATH1 Q.Who is the most underutilised member of the current WWE roster? and why did you choose this person over other wrestlers? you can make your arguement and counter others until the next topic is posted at which point i wll post the first round scores. at the end of the ten days the person on the highest points tally will be crowned Boards.ie ATH Champion and if its a success will hopefully defend that title at ATH#3.
.

I said i would do another ATH the week after Survivor series while the idea was still fresh in peoples minds after this i hope to try the format at the end of each month. Also so as to avoid this going off topic, arguements and so that the thread stays readable / judgeable I added just 1 or 2 rules last time round.

*you can only counter an arguement once, although you can counter as many different peoples arguements as much as you want (but only once each). if someone's defense of their arguement isnt good it will count against them plus someone else might continue to question it in your place.

*You can use the same answer as a previous poster if you wish i.e you agree with their choice however its hard to win a debate when your making the same points someone already made

to give people a chance to notice/read this and give me a chance to decide on a first topic i will wait until friday to begin round 1.
Current defending champion is Vince135792003, can he retain his title?

Minto

One thing that kinda confused me about the first one, how to you score the agruments? Is there a set system of points, or is it just, whoever makes the most sense to you gets the most points?

Bounty Hunter

i have a system however if i was to explain it people might start questioning their scores as they would be able to work out what they should have got ect... max score per round is 20 and i try to not give less than 10 to any poster each round. I also explain why people get poor scores but not why different posters get ahead of each others on the scoreboard so as once again to avoid arguements and going off topic ect...

Bounty Hunter

Okay itl be interesting to see who if anyone gives this a go this time round
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ATH:Round 1
Q.What is the greatest WWE/F feud we never got to see? and what would have made this feud so special had it happened?

gimmick

Austin Vs Hogan

Egomania is the title of this PPV. Both men can rightfully argue at being the biggest star of all time, and its very difficult to argue with either claim. Hogan, for his part, was the superhuman face of pro wrestling in America for most of the 80s, and a good chunk of the 90s. Many argue he made what pro wrestling became. Austin on the other hand became a megastar at a time when WWF was in severe financial difficulties and it is arguable that he is the main reason why WWE still exists today.

To have these two fued, maybe in 2002 when Hogan returned to WWE would have been money, possibly moreso than the Hogan Rock fued. Nothing would have been 'obvious' about it, as neither man would be willing to do the job - this is apparently the reason why it hasn't happened since. Even now both men are well past the prime, if these two were to headline a PPV, you would have a buyrate through the roof and the gate reciepts would be of a Wrestlemania degree. Sure the match would suck ass, but the electricity is what would make it.

Vince135792003

I'm taking a break this time.

Bounty Hunter

Vince135792003 wrote: »

I'm taking a break this time.

wow shoulda really considerd that possibility before giving this thread its title, or are you just withdrawing so that you remain undefeated and the new champ isnt undisputed:D

Vince135792003

I'm just way too busy. I shall return though.

rossie1977

hogan v flair 1991-92

the two biggest wrestling stars of the 1980s together at last, a match/program made in heaven, except vince didn't think so

flair was at the peak of his power when he joined the WWF in August 1991. Unusually they pushed Flairs previous feats from the off, claiming him to be the real world's champ and hogan to be a fraud

we got tasters of what might have been, on the funeral parlour, at Survivor Series 1991, at Royal Rumble 1992. Flair and Hogan should have headlined WM8, yes savage/flair ended up being a great match but Flair/hogan surely would have drawn more and at least matched WM7's 2.8 buyrate.

by the time hogan/flair eventually got it on in the ring (on tv) at Bash in July 1994, Flairs momentum was gone, his career starting to wind-down, hogan's career seemed dead at this point however it would be resurrected two years later with the help of Hall and Nash.

Bubs101

CM Punk vs. Stone Cold

The reason for the feud is self explanatory, booze. Both charachters are so dependant on their different attitudes to it, it's a natural conflict.

How it would happen is fairly simple. Austin beats some guy and goes for his 6 pack and while he starts drinking he gets attacked from behind by Punk causing him to turn heel and from what I hear and the one clip I've seen, Punk is a great heel while Stone Cold is one of the ultimate faces.A perfect heel face dynamic. Hell, you could even have Cabana come up as his sidekick to really satisy the ROH fans.

The main benefit would be to get Punk over. He'd probably have to lose the feud at Wrestlemania (being a heel) but it'd still get him majorly over. Second, it would finally stop all of this clean cut nonsense in the WWE. Someone who hates beer should automatically be a heel and those who drink it at every match are always faces (Sandman and Austin). It would stop the WWE promoting being tee-total as cool. It has the makings of a classic while making a new star

flahavaj

Steve Austin Vs Eddie Guerrero

I was always mightily pissed off that Austin's premature departure from the company meant this was a feud that we never got to see. They had even filmed a vignette in a local bar where Eddie broke a bottle over Austin's head to set the feud up, before Stone Cold threw his toys out of the pram and decided to go home.

This feud would've been huge. Austin was anxious to work with Eddie as he quite rightly realised that at the time Eddie was massively over with the fans, was possibly the best in ring worker had at the time and that both men would have benefitted hugely from the feud. The promos in this one would've been off the charts what with the excellence of both men on the stick. They could have tied in Eddie's hsitory of alcohol addiction and Austin's penchant for being a drunken redneck as a bone of bitter contention between the two. They could have Eddie initially get a PPV win on Austin and make the feud appear over. With both as fan's favourites, they could embrace in the ring post match and have them get along well and even have each other's backs. Then evilly Austin gets into Eddie's head, wins his trust and keeps putting the temptation of alcohol in front of him. Feud on.

Imagine the heartfelt promos from Eddie bemoaning how Austin had tried to poison him with alcohol. You could easily get a 6 month program out of this one, culminating in a big blow off in a cage. You KNOW this would be an incredible feud both in and out of the ring. You'd establish a massive favouirite in Eddie as a guy who can hang with the big dogs. It would be the perfect platform from which to catapult him into the title picture.

THIS is the feud above all else that i regret not seeing in WWE.

flahavaj

Bubs101 wrote: »

CM Punk vs. Stone Cold

The reason for the feud is self explanatory, booze. Both charachters are so dependant on their different attitudes to it, it's a natural conflict.

How it would happen is fairly simple. Austin beats some guy and goes for his 6 pack and while he starts drinking he gets attacked from behind by Punk causing him to turn heel and from what I hear and the one clip I've seen, Punk is a great heel while Stone Cold is one of the ultimate faces.A perfect heel face dynamic. Hell, you could even have Cabana come up as his sidekick to really satisy the ROH fans.

The main benefit would be to get Punk over. He'd probably have to lose the feud at Wrestlemania (being a heel) but it'd still get him majorly over. Second, it would finally stop all of this clean cut nonsense in the WWE. Someone who hates beer should automatically be a heel and those who drink it at every match are always faces (Sandman and Austin). It would stop the WWE promoting being tee-total as cool. It has the makings of a classic while making a new star

I don't think Punk is a big enough star in the eyes of the fans foir this one to work I'm afraid. I don't think they see Punk asmuch of a star yet at all to be perfectly honest. The ECW title he holds has been pushed as pretty worthless, lower down, even than the IC title and by that same token, Punk is not that big a deal to your casual WWE fan. I think the casual viewer would just see the whole feud as something of a mismatch in terms of star power. No one in their right mind would see Punk as a threat to Austin.

As I've said below the entire feud works ten times when you substitue in a massive crowd favourite like Eddie, sorry man!

RichieLawlor

Bret "Hitman" Hart vs HBK Shawn Michaels post Montreal 97'

Had Bret been able to sort thru this with Vince and not suffered the stroke, then when WWE purchased WCW it may have been possible to see the return of the Hitman to WWE.

Can you imagine the heat on HBK, it would have been like the old days where the fans actually hated the wrestlers.

The promos would have been so much more intense, the matches stiffer, and the Arenas sold out to see this.

Both being professionals we would have got to see such an intense rivalry and top drawer matches ( both are excellent in ring workers) It would have been awesome.

This is one feud, because of the history which would have been bigger than Austin Hogan and probably more difficult to determine an outcome. I mean can u see Bret laying down for HBK or vice versa.

Either way is there anyone that wouldnt like to see it

Bubs101

flahavaj wrote: »

I don't think Punk is a big enough star in the eyes of the fans foir this one to work I'm afraid. I don't think they see Punk asmuch of a star yet at all to be perfectly honest. The ECW title he holds has been pushed as pretty worthless, lower down, even than the IC title and by that same token, Punk is not that big a deal to your casual WWE fan. I think the casual viewer would just see the whole feud as something of a mismatch in terms of star power. No one in their right mind would see Punk as a threat to Austin.

As I've said below the entire feud works ten times when you substitue in a massive crowd favourite like Eddie, sorry man!

As I said in my argument, one of the benefits of that feud would be that it would make Punk a bone fide star and as for Punk not being over with the fans, thats just nonsense. He always gets a massive pop when he comes out. If Punk is the heel then the misnatch in star power is irrelevant. What is Austin meant to do when attacked, nothing? of course he'd go after him, feud started.

As for your Eddie Austin thing, can't see it working.Eddie worked against JBL and Angle because they were heels with a lot of heat who people loved to see get screwed out of matches. Good luck turning Austin. The fans would still follow him everywhere. As for a 6 month run, just because Eddie's dead doesn't make him better. Angle worked hard to get him over and then he was stuck in a feud with the most unpopular champ since Nash

Double C

Shawn Michaels vs The Rock

A huge marquis attraction that WWE never went with, maybe second only to Hogan vs Austin. The build-up to this would be incredible. Both guys are naturally great both as heels and faces, but if the Rock made his comeback, no matter what they do, there is no way they could make the crowd boo him. I would have Michaels play a similar character to the one he played in his feud against Hogan, the crowd still love him, but he is being a dickhead so they are mad to see the Rock give him his comeuppances.

The match itself would have been great when the Rock was in his prime, but that's when HBK was out injured. Michaels is definitely good enough to get a great match out of the Rock, given the Rock gets the right amount of training and practice. The atmosphere along would be so amazing it would make an average match good and a good match great.

The promos would be out of this world. It has been reported that these two have no love lost for the other, so give them bullet point notes and let them run with the rest of it, none of this bullsh*t scripted nonsense. HBK could criticise the Rock's movie career and the Rock could make jibes at Michaels religious beliefs. It would be amazing to hear what they come out with. Things could get very personal, and that will only make things better.

Who does the job though? I would have thought Michaels, but would he really want to put the Rock over? Would it be worth the Rock's time to come back, build towards this one match, and not win? Vince would have some problems booking this one! Personally, I'd have the Rock to win every time.


In response to flavahaj and Bub's argument, I think a combination of both you're ideas could make for a great feud. That being Eddie vs Punk. Punk playing the heel, dragging up Eddie's history of drink and drug abuse, while Eddie gets the sympathetic vote from the fans. Would have been brilliant!

Bounty Hunter

ATH:Round 2
Q. What was the most unexpected heel turn in WWE history? not necessarily the best but the most unexpected? and why did you choose this over any other heel turn?

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again im going to try and avoid explaining all marking to avoid disagreements but as usual will explain 1 or 2 points

Double C - yours was a well approached answer and a feud that few would argue would/could have been great but as much as I respect your honesty openening your argument with "second only to Hogan vs Austin" makes it hard for your answer to rate above the person who may have argued for said feud.

Bubs101 - I like the idea and could actually see it happeningwith perhaps Sandman (is he on Raw though, he shouldent be IMO Sandman live = bad idea) instead of SCSA but when talking about Greatest feud we never got to see i dont think its on quite the same level as some of the others mentioned as Punk is not yet at the same level as the other superstars mentioned although such a feud would elevate him closer

rossie1977

andre the giant 1987

Andre had wrestled as a face his entire career; in europe, japan, canada and for the best part of 15 years in the WWF. Hogan and Andre seemed inseparable, andre was the ultimate babyface, everywhere he went he was loved by the fans, the real BFG, if you willl.

Andre's heel turn on Piper's pit shocked the WWF fans, when they saw him walk out with heenan it was seen as betrayal of the highest order. Hogan/heel Andre would go on to become the highest grossing feud in pro-wrestling history for the best part of the next two year. for the first time as champ hogan was the underdog and the fans ate it up. It was the last great program Andre would be involved in and a fitting end to his career

For me Andres heel turn was the most unexpected and also the most profitable by far

Bubs101

The Rock 1998

The Rock isn't just your average face, he's the people's champ. So when he turned at Summerslam 1998 it was more of a surprise than any heel turn beforehand and since. At Summerslam it seemed as if Vince and his corporation would do anything to have Mankind on the vacant belt as opposed to the Rock. The Rock had the Bossman installed as his opponent in the first round by Mcmahon only for him to steal the win in 3 seconds. The Bossman "tried" to throw Shamrock a nightstick in his next round match with the Rock only for the Rock to intercept and once again "screw" the corperation, or so it seemed. The final match was Mankind vs. The Rock with the corperation at ring side. Surely the Rock wasn't gonna win this time. They exchanged finishers when Rocky locked in the Sharpshooter and the bell rang. The crowd went silent not sure what happened til the Rock's music went off. Biggest pop of the night.

But then Vince Shane and the Bossman joined him in the ring as they revealed the plan that The Rock was cooking. The Montreal Screwjob reference, The Rock renaming the "corperate eyebrow, elbow and champ" and Vince's great quote " the people screwed the people". But the real masterpiece was the Rock Bottom on Mankind. He finally looked like he was going to get what he deserved only to be made look like a bigger chump than ever. The heat that The Rock's music got on Raw just showed how betrayed the people felt. Classic WWF

Danger_Dave

ATH:Round 1
Q.What is the greatest WWE/F feud we never got to see? and what would have made this feud so special had it happened?

Mr.kennedy vs HHH 07 . illegitimate son angle, I believe because of the suspension and therefore dropping of Mr kennedy from the angle, damaged what could have been one of the biggest pushes the WWE have given to a wrestler, since at least Brock. I think with HHH worried about his inheritance with Steph, a big feud could have been created, with Vince in the background wondering if the devil you know is better than the devil you dont know. Since Kennedy however was caught we'll never know.

I know that since his injury after winning MITB Mr Kennedy has not been the same in the ring or on the mic, but i really believe he could raised his level for a feud of this level. The great part about this feud would have a reverse back to feuds that didnt require the title with stupid promo's " you have the title so i hate you, i deserve the title blah blah blah "


ATH:Round 2
Q. What was the most unexpected heel turn in WWE history? not necessarily the best but the most unexpected? and why did you choose this over any other heel turn?

2005 : HBK on Hulk Hogan, When HBK needs a partner, the emotional speech really got you going, "one more match" chant was a excellent add, looked just to be like a ratings boost show, The show boating at the end after they pick up the win. HBK and Hogan get the crowd going. Then Boom Sweet Chin Music. Then immediate boo's to hbk. Also the over selling of Hulk was funny, which made the fans boo HBK even more. it made you realize that Hogan was done. For me it made me hate HBK for a time, because he portrayed my hero of old as a joke and i really did not like that, saying that though it did make for entertaining TV.

HBK damaged a reputation, the fans saw this and did not like this, The promo's before the match were brilliant real comedy value which just built the heat for the match. HBK taking the piss out of hogan before the match with brilliant promo's and at Summerslam. So for this i loved and hated this heel turn which i think is needed to make a heel turn perfect.

Bounty Hunter

Shouldent really allow the first answer as there is a time limit and you missed it by several hours however you were a good contributer last time and it would be better to have all competitors in from round 1. So if you or anyone else doesent object ill accept your first answer but give it the minimum i give answers which is ten points

edit: and Bash at the beach shouldent really count either but you have two days for a do over or ill just mark you a bit worse as it didnt really answer the Question.

RichieLawlor

Bubs101 wrote: »

The Rock 1998

The Rock isn't just your average face, he's the people's champ. So when he turned at Summerslam 1998 it was more of a surprise than any heel turn beforehand and since. At Summerslam it seemed as if Vince and his corporation would do anything to have Mankind on the vacant belt as opposed to the Rock. The Rock had the Bossman installed as his opponent in the first round by Mcmahon only for him to steal the win in 3 seconds. The Bossman "tried" to throw Shamrock a nightstick in his next round match with the Rock only for the Rock to intercept and once again "screw" the corperation, or so it seemed. The final match was Mankind vs. The Rock with the corperation at ring side. Surely the Rock wasn't gonna win this time. They exchanged finishers when Rocky locked in the Sharpshooter and the bell rang. The crowd went silent not sure what happened til the Rock's music went off. Biggest pop of the night.

But then Vince Shane and the Bossman joined him in the ring as they revealed the plan that The Rock was cooking. The Montreal Screwjob reference, The Rock renaming the "corperate eyebrow, elbow and champ" and Vince's great quote " the people screwed the people". But the real masterpiece was the Rock Bottom on Mankind. He finally looked like he was going to get what he deserved only to be made look like a bigger chump than ever. The heat that The Rock's music got on Raw just showed how betrayed the people felt. Classic WWF

Yes it was good, and exciting and drew major heat but it was about as unexpected as Owen Harts heel turn on Bret. The Fans already hated Rocky Maivia so the only way for Dwayne Johnson to have any chance of progressing in WWF was to turn heel. Good one but not unexpected im afraid.

RichieLawlor

rossie1977 wrote: »

andre the giant 1987

Andre had wrestled as a face his entire career; in europe, japan, canada and for the best part of 15 years in the WWF. Hogan and Andre seemed inseparable, andre was the ultimate babyface, everywhere he went he was loved by the fans, the real BFG, if you willl.

Andre's heel turn on Piper's pit shocked the WWF fans, when they saw him walk out with heenan it was seen as betrayal of the highest order. Hogan/heel Andre would go on to become the highest grossing feud in pro-wrestling history for the best part of the next two year. for the first time as champ hogan was the underdog and the fans ate it up. It was the last great program Andre would be involved in and a fitting end to his career

For me Andres heel turn was the most unexpected and also the most profitable by far

In Fairness with the emergence of Hulkamania the only place for Andre to go in WWF was a heel turn. Andre was a smashing face but there was no room for him on that side as he couldnt compete with the ever more popular Hulkster. Ok it was a shock but i think a lot of ppl saw the possibilitues for a Hogan/Andre battle so they needed a heel turn and it was never going to be Hogan at that stage

RichieLawlor

the most unexpected Heel turn in WWE history was without doubt Stone Cold Steve Austin joining the Alliance. (Ok it was originally thought on a lot of internet sites that he might defect) The swerve WWE pulled on this angle was unbelieveable.

They had Austin mellow out on tv ( remember the angle sing-sing) and when he returned on Raw to "lead" the WWE against the alliance and stunned about 20 ppl that night even i cheered.

I dont think anyone could see him turning on Team WWE after what happened on Raw, it was such a surprise.

"The next night, Austin claimed he joined the Alliance because they appreciated him. He cited Vince's hugging of Angle and calling The Rock on the phone as signs that Vince did not appreciate Austin and accused Vince McMahon of grooming Kurt Angle to be the next WWF Champion."

That for me is one i didnt see coming

Bubs101

RichieLawlor wrote: »

Yes it was good, and exciting and drew major heat but it was about as unexpected as Owen Harts heel turn on Bret. The Fans already hated Rocky Maivia so the only way for Dwayne Johnson to have any chance of progressing in WWF was to turn heel. Good one but not unexpected im afraid.

Unexpected?? The fans reaction alone shows how "unexpected" it was. The whole thing was crafted to perfection and he wasn't even Rocky Maivia in 1998, he was The Rock and for you to say that "turning heel is the only way for Dwayne Johnsen to have any chance of progressing in the WWF was to turn heel" is laughable. Shades of KentonBomb, Get your facts straight

RichieLawlor

Bubs101 wrote: »

Unexpected?? The fans reaction alone shows how "unexpected" it was. The whole thing was crafted to perfection and he wasn't even Rocky Maivia in 1998, he was The Rock and for you to say that "turning heel is the only way for Dwayne Johnsen to have any chance of progressing in the WWF was to turn heel" is laughable. Shades of KentonBomb, Get your facts straight

If he had not turned heel he would have lasted as long as The Ringmaster character. As Rocky Maivia he was going no where, it didnt seem natural, i couldnt stand him as i imagine could anyone else. No Longevity at all. By turning heel it gave life to the "Rock" character. As for the fans reaction lol, you obviously were watching something else as the HATED the Rocky character and booed him constantly anyway. if anything he was more popular as a heel.

Anyway as i was saying Ray Charles saw this turn coming

Bounty Hunter

RichieLawlor it can be frustrating when someone responds to what youve said but they deserve the chance to defend their arguement and unfortunatley you can only comment/question another posters answer once (this time 2xbubs) to avoid people going around in circles in their own debate. not singling you out and this wont affect scores just emphasising the point early as their are a few people who werent involed in ATH1 taking part this time.

RichieLawlor

Bounty Hunter wrote: »

RichieLawlor it can be frustrating when someone responds to what youve said but they deserve the chance to defend their arguement and unfortunatley you can only comment/question another posters answer once (this time 2xbubs) to avoid people going around in circles in their own debate. not singling you out and this wont affect scores just emphasising the point early as their are a few people who werent involed in ATH1 taking part this time.

Sorry m8 i misunderstood the rules, i thought i could counter every counter post.

gimmick

Chris Jericho Survivor Series 2001

I loved this heel turn. It was a real slow burner and a great story behind it. Jericho all his career had always come up short until recently before this when he beat The Rock in an absolutely fantastic match at No Mercy to win the then WCW title. He had finally won the big one. Then a short few weeks later, he lost the title again to The Rock by a roll up. This drove Jericho mad and by this point he was a tweener.

Then it came to the final battle of WWF Vs WCW in a traditional Survivor Series match, the winning team stayed in business, the loser was finished. Jericho was a team mate of The Rock on Team WWE. Long story short, after Jericho was eliminated leaving The Rock as WWFs sole representative, his jealousy and selfishness kicked into overdrive and attacked Rocky, putting the WWFs future existense into jeprody (sp?).

I loved this heel turn as it was done very well in how it simmered for so long.

Bounty Hunter

ATH:Round 3
Q. What Non-WWE Wrestler (inc.former WWE/F) would make the biggest impact if they debuted in the WWE now? and why would this person have more of an impact than anyone else outside the company.

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Gimmick- Jericho's was a good heel turn but you say it was a slow burner and that he was a tweener beforehand so perhaps it was less "unexpected" than some others.

Richie Lawlor- Someone from WWE was always going to defect and join the alliance as without Goldberg, Sting etc being involved WWE audiences would always see it as an uneven match up

points like the above havent caused people to lose much marks as im saying them not other posters countering the arguements

rossie1977

Q. What Non-WWE Wrestler (inc.former WWE/F) would make the biggest impact if they debuted in the WWE now? and why would this person have more of an impact than anyone else outside the company.

can you clarify the question please; can the person be anyone not gainfully employed by the WWE at present???

Bounty Hunter

no hense me adding the inc former WWE/F, its anyone who hasnt been in the WWE however you can pick people who had trial matches or development deals etc just no "WWE Superstars". this is me giving a non-WWE question as requested in the feedback to ATH1 except seeing as not everyone watches TNA, ROH etc i gave it in the context of debuting in the WWE. hope that clarifys things

Danger_Dave

ATH:Round 3
Q. What Non-WWE Wrestler (inc.former WWE/F) would make the biggest impact if they debuted in the WWE now? and why would this person have more of an impact than anyone else outside the company.

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A; Dudley Boyz, I am aware i have been asked for a wrestler but i feel a tag team would be the biggest impact and considering that Dvon and Bubba Ray have always been more of unit ill go with it, hopefully i am not penalized to much .

If the Dudley Boyz were brought back to the WWE, it would breath new live into what is lets face it a dead division . Cade & Murdoch are an excellent tag with great potential but since the hardys being spilt tehyve had no competition and HHH burying them about month ago didnt help, and if anyone saw there tag team match against the Hardys at Vengeance, it was a great match, but it was cut short because all the titles were on the line that night, and it was the first match of the night. The match showed how good Cade & Murdoch could be.

You bring back the dudley Boyz they could have a good feud with Cade & Murdoch, bring into the mix Kendrick and London who i am not a big fan,The possibility of Cody Rhodes and Bob holly which WWE seem to want to push a bit, thats another tag into the mix. Thats a nice 4 way bid which will let teams take a break from the chase for the belts and keep it fresh. Add in the hardy's the odd time against the dudley's for a 5 star match.

With all of this we have got a tag team division which is reinvigorated. The Dudley Boyz would add a freshness to the tag team division that we have not seen since they were broken up in the draft moons ago .Tables matches come back, some excellent promo's can be cut from them and the fact that you can put them in match with the top guys in the company, in a tag team environment and improve upon the match boosts the options for Raw and how story lines would unfold, and how a GM/ Vince would book them against the top face in handicap match, or a 6 man tag.

Bubs101

Bags A.J., presuming his match with the Hurricane counts for nothing?

Double C

It has to be Sting. And here's how. I'd have the Undertaker turn heel and start doing some weird Ministry stuff. I'd have him steam-roll over all the faces over a short period of time, assuming he doesn't fall apart before then. I'd have the Taker do some weird lights out ritual or some sh*t after he takes apart each opponent. After about three of these, I'd have some weird Sting-esque vignette play on the titantron. (The Undertaker does a great head turn thing when he's focused on something and that would be a cool reaction to this vignette). Then nothing happens. This goes on for a few weeks, with the vignettes getting gradually freakier and freakier, visibly unsettling the Taker. Then, after some big win for the Taker, the lights go out and this vignette airs. The Taker is slowly losing his marbles. Weird lights start flashing all over the place, and Sting drops down from the rafters, baseball in hand. The crowd goes nuts. The PPV buy-rates for the next few months go through the roof.

A good long Sting Undertaker feud would be excellent. So would one with Michaels. And Edge. And Jericho. And just about anyone else because it would be a fresh feud. Sting can still go with the best of them (don't let that horrible feud with Abyss tell you any different) and he proved that against Angle recently, they had a great match until the dumb booking happened. (I said it before and I'll say it again, I F*CKING HATE REF BUMPS AND RUN INS!!!)

But yeah, in terms of impact, I think Sting would make the biggest. His arrival in WWE would be huge, it would rekindle interest in (WCW) fans who may have given up on wrestling. It would also throw up the possibility of Flair vs Sting again.


I don't think either the Dudley's or AJ Styles would make that big an impact in WWE. Definitely not the Dudley's anyway, I wouldn't see any value in bringing them back at all. AJ may do well eventually, but a lot of his move set would be limited, and he is very small. I met him before and he was barely up to my shoulder. He would really shine in a cruiser division if, in the perfect world, WWE decided to put some emphasis on it, but that's not going to happen.

rossie1977

samoa joe, he has the size the WWE are looking for but amazingly he can wrestle for a big man. Not since the days of vader and bigelow at their peaks has an american wrestler his size captivated wrestling audiences. The WWE is clearly lacking a wrestler of his type (i don't agree he is another umaga btw), the fans want to see more big guys who can actually go in the ring. he also clearly has time on his side too being 20 years younger than sting, this would be my big problem with sting and the future years.

Joe has proved himself well able to work fantastic matches both in ROH and TNA, pairing him against the likes orton, michaels, trips etc would be gold. Personally i would bring him in first as a heel to minimise the need for him to talk, an evil ufc type fighter gimmick would work well i think

i didn't pick any japanese star because its very rare an asian star makes it in the states no matter how good. it would take a number of years to make a star out of any of the roh roster e.g. danielson, mcguinness or Morishima as they are unknowns among the american tv viewing public. sting as i have said is probably too old for vince to give him a major push, styles/daniels probably too small, abyss too gimmicky.

Bounty Hunter

Bubs101 wrote: »

Bags A.J., presuming his match with the Hurricane counts for nothing?

yup that doesent count A.J's fine just no previously established WWE stars which the Dudleys are so Danger Dave you can submit another answer or like the last round ill just mark you down a bit cos your answer doesent exactley fit the question.

Double C

It would be hard for WWE to market Joe as anything but another Umaga. Remember Umaga was brought in to be WWE's big mean Samoan as a counter to Joe in TNA. I'm a huge fan of Joe and I think it would be refreshing to see a guy of his shape in the WWE. I say shape because he isn't as big as you would expect, Morishima is bigger than Joe and Cade and Murdoch are both bigger than Morishima, as a picture in the photos thread proved.

I think what you said about Danielson and McGuinness applies to Joe too. Only a small percentage of the WWE audience would know who Joe is. Obviously he's on a bigger stage than those in ROH, but TNA does not compare at all to WWE.
I don't think Sting's age is that big of a concern either. He is not going to be a 10 year plan, he would be brought in for a couple of years to get the dream feuds wrestling fans have wanted for so long. The question is about the impact they would make and I think Sting coming in for a year or two of upper card dream feuds would have a bigger impact than Joe coming in.

Bounty Hunter

Double C (and Flahavaj) i set a precident giving 10points to Danger dave for submitting a late (after the 2days) answer to Round 1's question so if you wish to answer Rd 2 now i can award 10points to you also. as 10 points is the minimum I will give out and the maximum for a late entry you would also not need to spend too much time on this answer cos it wont make a difference to your score.

It makes it more interesting to have everyone involved for as many rounds as possible and although its now 2days per round people might miss questions and ten points (the max difference in score if you enter a late answer per round) can be made up over 5 rounds.

gimmick

Abyss. Strangley for a big man, Abyss actually does have talent. Unlike all new big men, I would not hot shot his fued with The Undertaker, but have him steamroll over the other big men who Taker has vanquished in the past.

First off for him is Kane. Once he has utterly destroyed Kane (who lets be honest is not a monster anymore and has not been for years), he can move onto other Monsters as a sort of tweener, going over, and hopefully putting on the shelf, Mark Henry, and other talentless buffonns who WWE like pushing like The Great Khali. Up to this point he will have shown no interest in Taker.

But in the Royal Rumble they cross paths, eliminating each other leading into a huge Wrestlemania fued. The streak Vs the undefeated monster. Something has to give.

If the Dudley Boyz were brought back to the WWE, it would breath new live into what is lets face it a dead division

To be fair, the Dudleys were totally stale toward their last run in WWE. So a fresh run would not bring any excitement.

samoa joe, he has the size the WWE are looking for but amazingly he can wrestle for a big man.

As much a fan as I am of him, WWE would have him dancing around like Rikishi, or team him with Umaga as a new version of The Headshrinkers. Jow is actually decent on the mic, something the WWE probably would not let him do, so no to Joe as well.

Re AJ - if the CW division was worth anything I might agree, but if Jamie Noble and Helms etc are wasted, I cannot see AJ doing anything either. Nor could I see him go the way of Mysterio as a small man who takes on the big boys.

RichieLawlor

rossie1977 wrote: »

samoa joe, he has the size the WWE are looking for but amazingly he can wrestle for a big man. Not since the days of vader and bigelow at their peaks has an american wrestler his size captivated wrestling audiences. The WWE is clearly lacking a wrestler of his type (i don't agree he is another umaga btw), the fans want to see more big guys who can actually go in the ring. he also clearly has time on his side too being 20 years younger than sting, this would be my big problem with sting and the future years.

Joe has proved himself well able to work fantastic matches both in ROH and TNA, pairing him against the likes orton, michaels, trips etc would be gold. Personally i would bring him in first as a heel to minimise the need for him to talk, an evil ufc type fighter gimmick would work well i think

i didn't pick any japanese star because its very rare an asian star makes it in the states no matter how good. it would take a number of years to make a star out of any of the roh roster e.g. danielson, mcguinness or Morishima as they are unknowns among the american tv viewing public. sting as i have said is probably too old for vince to give him a major push, styles/daniels probably too small, abyss too gimmicky.

If Samoa Joe debuted in WWE im quite sure it would recieve the same reaction as that of Carlito, no ones gives a ****

rossie1977

lol, joe being compared to carlito and junior fatass

here are a few reasons why i think not:
Samoa Joe vs. CM Punk II ROH
Samoa Joe vs. Kenta Kobashi ROH
Samoa Joe vs. Takeshi Morishima ROH
AJ Styles vs. Samoa Joe vs. Christopher Daniels - Unbreakable 2005
Samoa Joe vs. AJ Styles - Turning Point 2005
Joe vs Chris Daniels - Final Resolution 2006
Kurt Angle vs. Samoa Joe - Turning Point 2006
Samoa Joe vs. Christian Cage - Bound for Glory 2007

Over 1 million americans tune into impact each week between the first airing of the show on thursday night and the re-run on saturday i believe which leads me to believe that TNA is known by wrestling fans.

Double C's argument that "Only a small percentage of the WWE audience would know who Joe is" will also apply to sting, abyss, styles, daniels and the rest of the tna roster if that is the case. I have been at WWE events in the states and in the last 2 years the chants of TNA during certain matches have become more frequent

RichieLawlor

Well, honestly i think this is a bogus question because there are only a very few wrestlers that have not been in WWE before that could make any impact. Actually Sting probably being the only one that would have any chance of doing it.

So im going throw in a different answer here, i dont see why it should be unacceptable but i await your verdict

This guy http://www.thenatural.tv/,
being so much bigger and more popular than Shamrock, or Brock Lesnar or Dan Severn (lol) would raise the roof off any WWE show and really could be marketed as (to steal from Kama, LOL) "The supreme fighting machine)

The fans love him and he would be seen as a "real" tough guy, the possiblitys would be huge. If Shamrock can do it why not Randy.

Bubs101

So as I said, i pick AJ.

Aj would be a good choice for a couple of reasons. For one, the WWE has already tried to sign him so I'm not the only one thinking along the same lines. After impressing in his trial matches including a great one against Hurricane Helms he was aoffered a contract which he turned down. the reason he was offered a contract is because not only is he a great high-flyer,technician and seller but he's also great on the mic. In short, he's a total package and they don't call him phenomenal for nothing. In fact he's been the champion of the top two other promotions in ROH and TNA and has held both of their secondary belts in the X-division and that number 1 contenders thingy in ROH

People have said he's too small. Rubbish. So he's not as tall as Khali, neither is Hornswaggle yet that doesn't stop those two being put against each other. In fact, I'd see AJ being right at home on Smackdown. I'd certainly consider him more talented than MVP and Hardy and could see a feud working very very well with MVP seeing as they can both cut a great promo. Not only could he feud with MVP on Smackdown but there'd also be Hardy, Helms, Chavo, Edge and Rey. I really couldn't see the fact that he's small making any difference in those matches, hell, they could even use him to relaunch and rebrand the cruiserweight division if they wanted but doubtleslly that would be seen as a waste of his precious talent.

As for the other suggestions, Samoa Joe wouldn't really fit in. They have Umanga so there really is no room for him. As for Sting, I don't think he'd be given a push at all. the main event scene on the two brands is already crowded as it is with Edge, Triple H, Taker, Batista, Rey, Mizark, HBK,Y2J, Randy and now Flair I really couldn't see Sting being pushed ahead of these guys (with the exception of Henry). Aldo, he's getting very old and the WWE had the chance to sign him when he was younger and chose not to.

As for Abyss and Couture, I don't think Abyss is talented and if he did move he'd just be seen as a mankind rip-off while Couture would never sign

rossie1977

shamrock was a pro-wrestler before joining the ufc and even at that he barely got over in the WWF. like taz his tough-guy gimmick (though true) wasn't believable to WWF fans because he was so much shorter than the likes of big show, taker, kane et al who also act the tough guy.

Couture would need a up to a year of training before being ready to step into the ring, he has a sound amateur background though.

rossie1977

umaga is 100% gimmick, without the Wild Samoan gimmick what is he

Samoa Joe is american born, in california, he has proved more than once in the past he is not a gimmick

Bubs101 wrote:

They have Umanga so there really is no room for him

thats the same as saying; well finlay is in the WWE no need for any more Irish wrestlers :rolleyes:

RichieLawlor

Bubs101 wrote: »

As for Abyss and Couture, I don't think Abyss is talented and if he did move he'd just be seen as a mankind rip-off while Couture would never sign

What has this got to do with anything, he is a s likely to sign as Sting is IMO

RichieLawlor

Bubs101 wrote: »

So as I said, i pick AJ.

Aj would be a good choice for a couple of reasons. For one, the WWE has already tried to sign him so I'm not the only one thinking along the same lines. After impressing in his trial matches including a great one against Hurricane Helms he was aoffered a contract which he turned down. the reason he was offered a contract is because not only is he a great high-flyer,technician and seller but he's also great on the mic. In short, he's a total package and they don't call him phenomenal for nothing. In fact he's been the champion of the top two other promotions in ROH and TNA and has held both of their secondary belts in the X-division and that number 1 contenders thingy in ROH

People have said he's too small. Rubbish. So he's not as tall as Khali, neither is Hornswaggle yet that doesn't stop those two being put against each other. In fact, I'd see AJ being right at home on Smackdown. I'd certainly consider him more talented than MVP and Hardy and could see a feud working very very well with MVP seeing as they can both cut a great promo. Not only could he feud with MVP on Smackdown but there'd also be Hardy, Helms, Chavo, Edge and Rey. I really couldn't see the fact that he's small making any difference in those matches, hell, they could even use him to relaunch and rebrand the cruiserweight division if they wanted but doubtleslly that would be seen as a waste of his precious talent.

As for the other suggestions, Samoa Joe wouldn't really fit in. They have Umanga so there really is no room for him. As for Sting, I don't think he'd be given a push at all. the main event scene on the two brands is already crowded as it is with Edge, Triple H, Taker, Batista, Rey, Mizark, HBK,Y2J, Randy and now Flair I really couldn't see Sting being pushed ahead of these guys (with the exception of Henry). Aldo, he's getting very old and the WWE had the chance to sign him when he was younger and chose not to.

As for Abyss and Couture, I don't think Abyss is talented and if he did move he'd just be seen as a mankind rip-off while Couture would never sign

Actually i think i disagree with 90% of this rubbish, the only good point u actually make is AJ is a good worker, on the mic aswell.

Either your just ranting or you dont understand the question. it doesnt matter whether you think Sting would get a push or Samoa Joe wouldnt fit in or Abyss is a mankind rip-off or couture wouldnt sign. The question is WOULD THEY MAKE AN IMPACT

Bubs101

RichieLawlor wrote: »

What has this got to do with anything, he is a s likely to sign as Sting is IMO

That's your 3rd quote and thus doesn't warrant a response as you're allowed 2 per round not to mention the fact that you didn't make much of an argument in your original post so there was not much to make a counter argument. Here's just 2 reasons why he's not as likely to sign as Sting let alone never signing. Number 1, he's not a wrestler and has no experience of Pro Wrestling. Number 2, he's currently doing a movie and wrestling extensive schedule wouldn't allow him the time

As for the Joe Umaga link, I think you've got to realise the difference in fans between TNA/ROH and WWE. If Joe did come in he would definitly be linked with Umaga as Umaga was brought in to try and be a copy Joe. The Samoan Submission Machine and the Samoan Bulldozer are a bit too similar me thinks. If anything Finlay proves the rule. They had an Irishman so when they brought a new one in (Hornswaggle) they linked him with Finlay. When they got a new Brit in they linked him with Regal (Regal and Taylor) not to mention the FBI and the Mexicools and Taka and Funaki. The WWE would put them together based on past actions and I really don't think it'd work

Sorry, I just saw your last post. I think I did answer the question. I don't think Sting would get a push thus I don't think he would make an impact. The WWE could have signed him in the past but never did. They did try and sign A.J. though. As for not understanding the question, it's better than not understanding the rules of the game. Even if those points you had made were valid, they wouldn't count as it's not unlimited posts

RichieLawlor

I wasnt argueing the point i was stating i didnt think you understood the question with that last rant

Fozzy

I didn't think I'd have the time to put enough effort into this, but there's a couple of points I'd like to mention about some arguments. I'll leave it til the game is over so I don't go interrupting things

rossie1977

Dylan Postl aka hornswoggle is 100% american born and bred, not a bit of irish in him