Kelly's proposal

Kerry On Tour

Seán Kelly has proposed that the first 16 knocked out of the provincial championships going into a draw for the Tommy Murphy or "B" All Ireland and the rest compete for Sam. His view is that it give the Provincial championships back some meaning and give everybody an effort to start out at an even footing. Probably a good idea, better than what we have where in effect some stronger teams in the past have been rewarded by getting knocked out early gaining victories against weaker teams, getting match practice and being more battle hardened for the bigger matches. (All then again to do this you must be good enough in the first place to come through it).

JayoCluxton

KoT - what is the exact proposal do you know? How will they work out the first 16 out? Eg If you have Meath Dublin in the 1st round of Leinster will one of them be heading for Tommy Murphy?

EoimarMuppet

i presume thats the losers of all first round games?
what about the Ulster pre lims? New York/London.....
what if there is a series of draws ala 91...........hold off till they finish...???

Kerry On Tour

LiamWalkinstown wrote: »

i presume thats the losers of all first round games?
what about the Ulster pre lims? New York/London.....
what if there is a series of draws ala 91...........hold off till they finish...???

It's a bit vague so far an I suppose you will have to consider that Leinster and Ulster combined has nearly double the amount of teams of Connaught and Munster comibned. I would probably guess that how you did in the year before the format was introduced would define if you went in or not kind of like the league last year.

Former GAA president Sean Kelly has proposed that the All-Ireland football championship be reduced to 16 teams, with the remaining 16 taking part in the Tommy Murphy Cup.

And while his proposals don’t make provision for a qualifier competition, he argues that teams would still be guaranteed at least two championship games by playing in their provincial championship and in either of the two All-Ireland championships.

"It would be quicker to run off, it’s fairer - everyone starts at an even keel - it would give the provincial champions something to aim for and boost the provincial championships," he said.

"Also, there would be more time for the clubs. It kind of hits all the problem areas at the minute."

Kelly believes his proposals would give the provincial championships, which have lost much of their lustre in recent years, a major shot in the arm.

JayoCluxton

Can't see it meself KoT tbh. For instance Galway have often been drawn against Mayo in Connacht R1, In Ulster even the prelim can feature any 2 - eg Derry v Donegal, Armagh v Tyrone, never mind R1. Can't see how the likes of these teams in a B All Ireland would help anyone and certainly can't see how the GAA would let the cash cows slip (cowslip!) into a B comp that probably won't interest the fans of the bigger guns!

Mr. Incognito

It's not a bad idea in theory as it gives victory's like Monoghan over Armagh or Limerick over Cork in the first round more weight, and puts some serious teams into the Tommy Murphy Cup.

aidan24326

The semi finals in the 4 provinces makes up 16 teams. So I imagine it would be every team who is knocked out before their prov. semis.

Potentially a decent idea. It would certainly put some serious life into the first round games, and would give the 'B' Championship an edge also.

The Tommy Murphy Cup was the most ill-conceived idea ever and will never take off. A meaningful All-Ireland 'B' Championship could be a serious competition, with promotion/relegation etc.

Call it the intermediate grade, like at club level. You don't see club teams turning up their noses at winning an intermediate championship.

JayoCluxton

Yep Aidan that would liven up the early rounds alright. You still might have a big name casualty in your province particularly, depending on the draw. There would also likely be a few big name casualties in Ulster.

It would also mean that it would be very dangerous for teams to aim at peaking in August or September so that could have a knock-on effect later in C'ship for some.

Would you support a match between the winners of the two titles - could be the new Goal Challenge for the (unofficial) title of AI Champions!

yahoo_moe

aidan24326 wrote: »

The semi finals in the 4 provinces makes up 16 teams. So I imagine it would be every team who is knocked out before their prov. semis.

Yes, but you've got Kilkenny (who don't compete in the Leinster Senior Football Championship), London and New York to take into account so you'd have 17 teams "in" the All-Ireland proper so one team doesn't make a provincial SF OR the Tommy Murphy (two if KK now get chucked into the main championship from the start)... or, if you want to guarantee everyone 2 games (at least), you'd have to have 2 play-off matches to get into the AI first between (presumably) those three and one other team... I think it's very messy myself

I don't see why he doesn't just advocate a return to the old knock-out system I know some teams would only get 1 game but I'm not sure how you weight the "first 16 out" thing to reflect the different numbers of teams in the provinces

pd101

JayoCluxton wrote: »

Can't see it meself KoT tbh. For instance Galway have often been drawn against Mayo in Connacht R1, In Ulster even the prelim can feature any 2 - eg Derry v Donegal, Armagh v Tyrone, never mind R1. Can't see how the likes of these teams in a B All Ireland would help anyone and certainly can't see how the GAA would let the cash cows slip (cowslip!) into a B comp that probably won't interest the fans of the bigger guns!

Why should any team be given preferential treatment? Teams only had the one chance anyway before the qualifiers were introduced.

MrsMc

pd101 wrote: »

Why should any team be given preferential treatment? Teams only had the one chance anyway before the qualifiers were introduced.

Read my post - I didn't say they should. I was pointing out that the GAA wouldn't like the idea of some big attractions going out early - too much money to be lost

Dapos

The idea has plenty of pro's and con's but i must say i like the idea.

Some Pro's i see:

• Gives the provincal title more meaning
• will make the first rounds more important
• can give shock results the impact they deserve e.g. in munster a team like waterford, tipp or clare beating kerry or cork will knock them out of AI
• stronger teams in the tommy murphy cup may give it some life

Some Con's i see:

• Stronger teams may disregard the second teir AI if knocked out early
• uneven numbers in provinces may be unfair to Leinster/ Ulster teams
• had a few more but i have forgot them
• Will a team like kerry, dublin tyrone care about winning the B AL?

Also it may increase the importance of the league. If the first rounds of the championship don't have the cushion of the qualifiers then it will be a greater advantage to get a run at the semi's and final of the league. Also with the new Division 1 format (which i think is a great idea) being in this division will also be good preparation.

Here is another idea, if the winners of the B Al or tommy murphy cup or watever are rewarded with a place in the division 1 of the league it may be an incentive to win it. This would also tie together the league and championship even more.

Sorry i'm rambling on here but i hope ye get what i'm on about

patmac

aidan24326 wrote: »

The semi finals in the 4 provinces makes up 16 teams. So I imagine it would be every team who is knocked out before their prov. semis.

Potentially a decent idea. It would certainly put some serious life into the first round games, and would give the 'B' Championship an edge also.

The Tommy Murphy Cup was the most ill-conceived idea ever and will never take off. A meaningful All-Ireland 'B' Championship could be a serious competition, with promotion/relegation etc.

Call it the intermediate grade, like at club level. You don't see club teams turning up their noses at winning an intermediate championship.

This would be grossly unfair suiting Connacht and Munster teams every year as the qualifiers do.
Leitrim and Sligo would only have to beat London and New York also Limerick and Clare would only have to beat Tipp and Waterford or vice versa, whereas Westmeath would have to beat Longford and Offaly, Wicklow likewise against Kildare and Laois, Antrim likewise Cavan and Armagh, etc.

A stupid idea, an expanded Tommy Murphy Cup that teams knocked out of the first round of the championship would find an inconvienience. Could you imagine if Meath beat had beaten Dublin in the LCQF this year and condemned them to this, the amount of revenue lost would be huge. The only benefit would be to club championship.
No way this should be even considered.

Kerry On Tour

patmac wrote: »

This would be grossly unfair suiting Connacht and Munster teams every year as the qualifiers do.
Leitrim and Sligo would only have to beat London and New York also Limerick and Clare would only have to beat Tipp and Waterford or vice versa, whereas Westmeath would have to beat Longford and Offaly, Wicklow likewise against Kildare and Laois, Antrim likewise Cavan and Armagh, etc.

A stupid idea, an expanded Tommy Murphy Cup that teams knocked out of the first round of the championship would find an inconvienience. Could you imagine if Meath beat had beaten Dublin in the LCQF this year and condemned them to this, the amount of revenue lost would be huge. The only benefit would be to club championship.
No way this should be even considered.

Like I was saying it would have to take into account the small sizes of Munster and Connaught compared to Leinster in particular.

blackbelt

No way do I think this should go ahead.Lets face it,they were proposing to do away with the Tommy Murphy Cup and its format.I think the way they should go about it is to market the Tommy Murphy better and make some changes.

I think the GAA should tier the provincial Championships into 1 and 2 have the tier two teams play in the preliminary rounds against each other for a spot in the quarter final (or semi final as the case may be) of their province.The teams that get knocked out in the prelim round go into the Tommy Murphy Cup.

Example,Leinsters tier two teams

1.Carlow
2.Wicklow
3.Offaly
4.Longford

Anyway,lets say Wicklow play Carlow and Longford play Offaly.The losers from the first game automatically go into the first round of the T M Cup.Then lets say Wicklow (win against Carlow) play Longford (beat Offaly) in Prelim round 2.The losers of this go into the 2nd round of the Tommy Murphy Cup while the winners get a quarter final spot.

Ulsters tier two teams

1.Antrim
2.London
3.Cavan (play the winners of Antrim v London for Quarter final spot in Ulster)

Munster

1.Tipperary
2.Waterford (play winners of Tipp v Clare for semi final spot in Munster)
3.Clare

Connaught

1.Roscommon (play winners of Leitrim v New York for Semi Final spot)
2.Leitrim
3.New York

This would cut the qualifiers by a round but not take out half the country and any meaningful big teams.As 9 counties would go into the Tommy Murphy Cup.I think its a true representation of who is the best of the weaker teams.

I thought the Tommy Murphy Cup Final was very interesting and enjoyable.It overshadowed Cork v Sligo IMO.

Kerry On Tour

blackbelt wrote: »

I thought the Tommy Murphy Cup Final was very interesting and enjoyable.It overshadowed Cork v Sligo IMO.

Well now that wouldn't be too hard!!!