Road Safety - Overdone ??

RobAMerc

Ok, I might get a pasting for this but.....

Does anyone else think theres just too much banging on about road safety here in Ireland now?
You cant watch a tv program here now with out someone using slogans about road safety.

Our road death figures are no worse than anywhere else in Europe so why do we make such a big deal about it

The rally coverage I was watching the other night almost spent as long talking about how the psni and gardai were out catching folk for speeding as they did on the rallying.

In my view this campaign is useless - its serving to make the nervous driver more nervous and actually slow down further while totally failing to get through to its intended audience.

Have road deaths dropped at all because of this campaign ?
Have they even proof its the so called "boy racers" that are having all these accidents and dying ?
Have they proved the reason behind the accidents and death is speed ?

cornbb

I think the RSA's campaigns over the years have probably helped somewhat but they definitely need a change in tack. Speeding is not the worst problem on our roads by a long shot. There needs to be better driver education, people need to be effectively taught how to not be muppets on the road and the Gardai need to go after outright dangerous drivers, as opposed to hiding in bushes by the side of the road. Shocking TV ads and telling people to "slow down" does not cut it.

RobAMerc wrote:

Our road death figures are no worse than anywhere else in Europe so why do we make such a big deal about it

Surely any deaths are too many deaths?

craichoe

Ring the Driving License Application center.

25 minutes on hold listening to people screaming, cars crashing

"Just one look ... thats all it took"

Most depressing hold music ever.

craichoe

cornbb wrote: »

I think the RSA's campaigns over the years have probably helped somewhat but they definitely need a change in tack. Speeding is not the worst problem on our roads by a long shot. There needs to be better driver education, people need to be effectively taught how to not be muppets on the road and the Gardai need to go after outright dangerous drivers, as opposed to hiding in bushes by the side of the road. Shocking TV ads and telling people to "slow down" does not cut it.



Surely any deaths are too many deaths?

People die every day, Its a simple fact. The only thing they can do is benchmark it against something i.e. road deaths in another country.

markpb

cornbb wrote: »

Surely any deaths are too many deaths?

Maybe this is the wrong forum for this but I would have thought that if you let thousands of people drive, whose only have training in mechanical skills with no mention of unusual events, you're going to have accidents and fatalities. You can do your best to tell people to be careful and cautious but in the end, if they face a situation they haven't been trained to deal with, bad things will happen. Driving is unusual in that it's one of the few dangerous activities whose training only covers mundane events.

RobAMerc

cornbb wrote: »

Surely any deaths are too many deaths?

Yes of course, but are the RSA not scaring the bejaysus out of people regarding something that happens in all countries - regardless of their Road Safety regulations ?

Drivers scared senseless on the road is NOT a good way to stop people having accidents.

OldmanMondeo

craichoe wrote: »

People die every day, Its a simple fact.

True, but, most, if not all road deaths can be prevented. I know people saying speeding does not cause accidents, but the difference between having an accident at 50kph and 60kph is massive, especially when pedestrains are involved. Even when driving within the posted limits, you could still kill someone.

On topic, as far as I am concerned we can not over do it with road safety, 1 death a year is to many. As said the RSA and guards need to look at more than just speeding and car / truck drivers. Motorbikes/cyclists that weave through traffic are putting them selves at risks. People who think the can run acroos the road before that car is near need to learn.

Mitch Connor

Inappropriate speed is a big problem on the roads, and it is an easy target for the RSA and the government. I do not think they should pull back from teh efforts they go to now with regards speed, maybe realign their message and change tact (ie take the speed traps off the comparitively safe motorways and dual carraigeways and move them to rural roads and areas around schools) but they shouldn't be concentrating less on the issue.

I do feel other areas need urgent attention though, such as teh actual quality of the roads. We had some bad weather over the weekend and the main roads around me were almost flooded and had massive puddles all over the place. Sure, the weather was bad, but seriously, it is hardly unheard of for it to rain badly in Ireland. The upkeep of storm drains leaves a lot to be desired, and it just one symtom of poor road maintenence.

Another issue is lighting - travel from bray to greystones via either the bray-greystones road or the N11 and you will go through areas that have no road side lighting at all. You will also get this traveling further south/south west to Wicklow. It is unacceptable that roads like these (80kmh and 100kmh roads) have no lighting at all. Further to the no lighting issue, the 'cats eyes' on the roads are pretty much non-reflecting for large stretches of the road, which makes it an even bigger joke.

So, inappropriate speed is obvioulsy an issue, but the stadards of our roads is also dangerously low, and it really does need to be looked at.

Anan1

RobAMerc wrote: »

Yes of course, but are the RSA not scaring the bejaysus out of people regarding something that happens in all countries - regardless of their Road Safety regulations ?

Drivers scared senseless on the road is NOT a good way to stop people having accidents.

I could be wrong, but the average driver out there doesn't look scared senseless to me. Quite the opposite, in fact.

Rowley Birkin QC

Not playing the sympathy card but as someone who lost my girlfriend to a completely needless car crash and having seen the impact that it's had on her family, both her and her brother died in the same incident (I refuse to call it an "accident"), there can never be enough publicity for road safety.

I can kind of see your point of view, but I sincerely hope you never have to view it from my perspective.

cashmni1

markpb wrote: »

Maybe this is the wrong forum for this but I would have thought that if you let thousands of people drive, whose only have training in mechanical skills with no mention of unusual events, you're going to have accidents and fatalities. You can do your best to tell people to be careful and cautious but in the end, if they face a situation they haven't been trained to deal with, bad things will happen. Driving is unusual in that it's one of the few dangerous activities whose training only covers mundane events.

I have to agree. There are many more serious problems that the RSA have to address to have a "total" saftey package to reduce the number of road deaths. First off, IMHO, teach people how to drive on a public highway. This includes night driving, poor weather conditions, heavy traffic and major intersections and Junctions. Then address the poor/dangerous roads with very high volumes of traffic.
There are, of course, many more issues that need to be addressed but start somewhere that will make a difference.
Doing a driving test (on a learned or familliar route), crawling around suburbia, reversing around corners and doing one three point turn in some housing estate is hardly permission to take control of a potentially dangerous machine.
Get off the fence RSA and tackle the real problems. As one other poster said, it is easy to hide in the bushes and catch people out.

Cionád

RobAMerc wrote: »

Yes of course, but are the RSA not scaring the bejaysus out of people regarding something that happens in all countries - regardless of their Road Safety regulations ?

Drivers scared senseless on the road is NOT a good way to stop people having accidents.

I think most people are quite desensitised to the kind of advertising they use, showing situations of death and destruction etc - its all around us these days and i'd say the average dangerous driver / drink driver is not going to change their attitude based on those types of adds. Maybe in the very short term it might have an effect, i dont know tbh.

I'd prefer to see proportionally more of those "How to overtake", "Driving on a motorway" style adds that educates the public more - because the standards out there are woeful.

Gran Hermano

We need less scare-mongering and 'nanny-state' mentality and just need
plain old consistent enforcement of the existing legislation.

dudara

Spend 1 hour driving on our roads, on roundabouts, motorways, dual carriages or any other form of public road infrastructure and tell me with a straight face that we should take it easy on road safety.

We're not doing half enough is the problem.

Mitch Connor

dudara wrote: »

Spend 1 hour driving on our roads, on roundabouts, motorways, dual carriages or any other form of public road infrastructure and tell me with a straight face that we should take it easy on road safety.

We're not doing half enough is the problem.

is it all speeding related though, as the campaigns and focus would imply?

RobAMerc

Anan1 wrote: »

I could be wrong, but the average driver out there doesn't look scared senseless to me. Quite the opposite, in fact.

I know theres alot of over confident fools on the road too - but if you took a spin into the country this weekend you'd see there's a lot of folk who are scared out of their wits to travel at anything more than a snails pace and usually theres a queue behind them of people who think overtaking is tantamount to suicide.

bigkev49 wrote: »

Not playing the sympathy card but as someone who lost my girlfriend to a completely needless car crash and having seen the impact that it's had on her family, both her and her brother died in the same incident (I refuse to call it an "accident"), there can never be enough publicity for road safety.

I can kind of see your point of view, but I sincerely hope you never have to view it from my perspective.

Firstly, you and your girlfriends family have my utmost sympathy.

But my point is that there is just a barrage of slogan shouting and scary adverts and the exact people who they are targeting will be the first to tire of it, while those already less likely to speed are getting more nervous.

mike65

RobAMerc wrote: »

Have road deaths dropped at all because of this campaign ?
Have they even proof its the so called "boy racers" that are having all these accidents and dying ?
Have they proved the reason behind the accidents and death is speed ?

On the first point, proberly not but its quite imposible to prove either way.

The second point is open to challange - look at the 'boy-racer' culture in the border zone esp in Donegal. No question more people in the 17-27 age cohort die than any other age grouping on a per capita basis. I did have the stats for that. I'll try to find them. I know not all youths are boy-racers

The third point again, seems to be proberly not. Clarkson pointed out yesterday the stats for road deaths casued by speed on A and B roads in the countryside were that just 4% could be put down to excessive speed.

Mike.

MargeS

Cionád wrote: »

I'd prefer to see proportionally more of those "How to overtake", "Driving on a motorway" style adds that educates the public more - because the standards out there are woeful.

I have to agree with you Cionád. They used to have one for roundabouts but it was the simple kind of roundabout with exits at 3, 6, 9 & 12. It's the roundabouts that don't follow this pattern that people have different ideas of how to navigate. I saw someone pull out of a T-Junction and turn left onto the the wrong side of the road. Then proceed to drive the wrong way up the middle lane of 3. Then decided to do a u-turn at a blind corner. ABSOLUTE MADNESS.

My point is that speeding is not the only problem. Stupidity accounts for a lot of incidents. Overtaking on hills, overtaking with on coming traffic because they reckon they can force traffic into the hard shoulder, driving at 40mph in a 60 zone and not allowing traffic a chance to overtake safely, Jebus! I could go on.

Since I got a sat nav, I realise that speeding is a pointless effort. It gives your ETA at your destination. I drove for nearly 2.5hours yesterday, was stopped at a checkpoint, got caught behind at least 5 tractors, I was stuck for 10 miles behind a 40mph driver with no opportunity to overtake. I lost 6 minutes out of 2.5 hour drive.

The more you drive the more stupid things you see people do and then you realise how accidents happen! :eek:

event

so, damned if they do and damned if they dont

if they scaled back the campaign they have there would be uproar, people going ballistic etc

and, if this whole campaign saves one persons life, its worth it

ballooba

Tauren wrote: »

is it all speeding related though, as the campaigns and focus would imply?

No. A very small percentage is.

The reason for the focus on road safety I would think is the expense. It's not a nice thing to say but having young people die after they have drawn on the economy and before they have had a chance to contribute is expensive.

On Mike65's point. Yes four out of ten road deaths are young people. They are not however necessarily driving and speed is not necessarily a factor. I have never seen any evidence for the 'boy racer' theory.

MargeS wrote: »

My point is that speeding is not the only problem. Stupidity accounts for a lot of incidents. Overtaking on hills, overtaking with on coming traffic because they reckon they can force traffic into the hard shoulder, driving at 40mph in a 60 zone and not allowing traffic a chance to overtake safely, Jebus! I could go on.

Ignorance does not equal Stupidity.

Mitch Connor

mike65 wrote: »

On the first point, proberly not but its quite imposible to prove either way.

The second point is open to challange - look at the 'boy-racer' culture in the border zone esp in Donegal. No question more people in the 17-27 age cohort die than any other age grouping on a per capita basis. I did have the stats for that. I'll try to find them. I know not all youths are boy-racers

The third point again, seems to be proberly not. Clarkson pointed out yesterday the stats for road deaths casued by speed on A and B roads in the countryside were that just 4% could be put down to excessive speed.

Mike.

Was very surprised by that, but I do wonder what the rest of the breakdown was.

I just can not believe that just 4% is down to excessive speed. Although, it depends what the measurement is.

I'm a big believer in inappropriate speed being the issue - ie. 140kmh on the M50 is not definitively dangerous (in the right conditions) but 60 kmh in a 80kmh zone on a rural road can be too fast and dangerous. So it depends on what they deem as excessive speed - something significantly over the posted limit (while ignoring everything under that limit) or any speed which can be deemed inapporpriate for the conditions.

ballooba

Tauren wrote: »

So it depends on what they deem as excessive speed - something significantly over the posted limit (while ignoring everything under that limit) or any speed which can be deemed inapporpriate for the conditions.

The posted speed limit is often completely unsafe.

For two vehicle accidents speed is a factor in 22%.
Drivers aged 25-34 account for 25% of Killed and Injured (highest age group).
Wrong side of road accounted for 26.5% of Killed and Injured (highest contributory factor).

mike65

I'm a big believer in inappropriate speed being the issue

Indeed, its the stopping that kills you.

The vast majority of crashes, regardless of outcome is down to bad driving but that such a multifaceted monster the powers that be cop out and go for the KISS approach.

The RSA in conjunction with RTE was supposed to have rolled out a comprehensive driver ed campaign showing us how to overtake, use roundabouts, enter/leave motorways, drive in the dark, fog etc but as far as I can tell only the ocassional advert is screened, usually the one about overtaking. Half assed as usual.

Mike.

Mitch Connor

ballooba wrote: »

The posted speed limit is often completely unsafe.

For two vehicle accidents speed is a factor in 22%.
Drivers aged 25-34 account for 25% of Killed and Injured (highest age group).
Wrong side of road accounted for 26.5% of Killed and Injured (highest contributory factor).

Yes, and sometimes it is low in relation to the road, but that is another arguement that has been done a lot on here and doesn't need another outing.

Your reply was partially my point - 60kmh on rural backroads acn be completely unsafe, sometimes even 50kmh and below - yet you see these roads with 80kmh limits. I know the limit is a maximum and not a target, but i think speed limits should be appropriate for the road and it is my belief that it should be safe to travel at the posted limit given the right weather conditions - most rural roads would never be safe at 80, regardless of weather conditions, obviously. And this is where I get to with the 4% stat mentioned by Clarkson; is it excessive for the conditions, or the posted limit.

ballooba

Tauren wrote: »

And this is where I get to with the 4% stat mentioned by Clarkson; is it excessive for the conditions, or the posted limit.

For the conditions. I think exceeded posted limit is a subset of that 4%.

Mitch Connor

ballooba wrote: »

For the conditions. I think exceeded posted limit is a subset of that 4%.

Then it is a really shocking figure!!

I would imagine things like 'on the wrong side of the road' are in the other 96% as I have seen that being seperated before, but then if you are on the wrong side of the road it is likely that it is because you were travelling to fast to take the road on the correct side.

I would love to see what the 96% is made up of though, I can't think of many things that don't involve traveling too fast for the conditions. maybe its the term 'excessive' that is masking the numbers though. Anyone catch where Clarkson said the stats come from?

ballooba

Tauren wrote: »

I would love to see what the 96% is made up of though, I can't think of many things that don't involve traveling too fast for the conditions. maybe its the term 'excessive' that is masking the numbers though. Anyone catch where Clarkson said the stats come from?

http://www.rsa.ie/publication/publication/upload/2005 Road Collision Facts.pdf

There is nothing masking the figures but spin. Yes, other factors make up the 96%. Remember though that this is only for one class of accident and figures are for the UK. Irish figures are not dissimilar though.

heyjude

RobAMerc wrote: »

Our road death figures are no worse than anywhere else in Europe so why do we make such a big deal about it

It depend which part of Europe you are talking about, if you mean places in Southern Europe like Portugal, Spain or Italy, or in Eastern Europe like Lithuania, then we are great, but compared to other Northern European countries, our road death figures are very high. Britain's road death rate is close to half our rate and that despite having a very similar climate, similar cars and driving on the same side of the road.

Hell, if you aren't worried about the loss of lives through a higher road accident death rate, it is reckoned that each road death costs something like a million Euro, in which case, if a new road safety campaign can prevent just a handful of deaths and a few dozen serious injuries, then it has more than paid for itself and if we could get close to the British rate, then the number of road deaths here annually would be in the low to mid 200s instead of something like 400.

mike65

I'm looking at that PDF now, where's page 20? Thats the one with the info we're looking for.

Mike.

ballooba

heyjude wrote: »

Hell, if you aren't worried about the loss of lives through a higher road accident death rate, it is reckoned that each road death costs something like a million Euro, in which case, if a new road safety campaign can prevent just a handful of deaths and a few dozen serious injuries, then it has more than paid for itself and if we could get close to the British rate, then the number of road deaths here annually would be in the low to mid 200s instead of something like 400.

It's the use of resources that gets me. A few ads on the TV seemed to be the only strategy up until recently. The focus on speed is inappropriate and misleading too.

RobAMerc

heyjude wrote: »

Hell, if you aren't worried about the loss of lives through a higher road accident death rate,

Come on - I am worried about it as much as anyone else - I am just saying we here in Ireland seem to be on about it constantly.

I mean when Richard Hammond was on the late late show - The Plank almost stuck him in the corner and blamed him for people speeding here. Equally - I have watched the WRC in numerous other countries and have never seen almost every interview make the interviewee stop just short of an apology for the fact they're involved in a sport where they dare to drive quickly.

cornbb

RobAMerc wrote: »

Come on - I am worried about it as much as anyone else - I am just saying we here in Ireland seem to be on about it constantly.

I mean when Richard Hammond was on the late late show - The Plank almost stuck him in the corner and blamed him for people speeding here. Equally - I have watched the WRC in numerous other countries and have never seen almost every interview make the interviewee stop just short of an apology for the fact they're involved in a sport where they dare to drive quickly.

I don't think the volume of campaigning (or propaganda if you prefer) is the problem, its just the fact that it is becoming more patronising and more condescending towards young male drivers like me is the problem. Gay Byrne and the likes of Ray d'Arcy sound like real arseholes, repeating the same mantra ad infinitum. I'm convinced that driver stupidity and ignorance combined with the state of the road network are the source of all Irish road deaths.

I don't think that anyone should apologise for doing their utmost to prevent road deaths, but I think the current strategy will become less and less effective over time. A long-term overhaul of driver education combined with sensible enforcement is the only way to go.

ballooba

This boy racer myth is steadily getting ripped apart.

A) Not all male.
Age group 25-34 are hardly 'boys' OR 'girls'.
C) Speed only a minority factor.

peasant

I for one am getting a bit tired of the same old "speed kills message" that gets bleated at us every five minutes.

In my opinion, the governement / RSA / local authorities have not yet earned the right to lecture us drivers about our shortcomings / deficiencies. They need to clean up their own shop first.

Within 500 meters of my house, there are enough examples of bad road design, inappropriate speed limits, wrongly placed signs, missing road markings, poorly maintained roads, etc to fill a small booklet.

Each of the above could (and will some day) cause an accident and possibly cost a life or cause severe injury. I have complained about these dangers to the local council and local guards and got shrugged off in both cases.

Surely one of these days there will be a lethal accident (there have been enough smaller ones already) and instead of blaming the bad and dangerous road design, some driver (possibly the victim) will be found to have driven with "inappropriate speed" and that'll be that until the next accident.

Dr.Millah

I think alot is down to bad and ignorant drivers. Every day i see drivers driving like its some sort of playstation game.
Just an hour ago i was coming back from school i had been the first car at the lights so there was no cars infronth of me but alot behind me. As i was driving down the road there was a man trying to pull out of a park turning right, i knew he would be there all day so i slowed down and let him go as there was no traffic on the other side of the road at the time, anyway just as he was pulling out the car behind me decided he would over take me for no reason almost hitting your man who was pulling out and he sped off down the road. The man in the car stopped and plessed himself with a look on his face like he had seen a goast.

Madness like dont understand some peoples disregard to rules and saftey on the road