Tournament Poker End game strategy.

Washout

Hi Guys

recently I have found myself going quite deep in big field tournies.
I am quite often making it into the top 100 of 1K+ fields.

But generally I get there with round about chip average.
My VPIP is 15% with PFR around 10% for MTTs (is this far too tight)

I am not Final Tabling often at all and am trying to better analyse why?
Usually when I get into the top 100 I start getting more aggressive.
situations like the following are quite common. I have 60K with blinds @ 2.5k/5k.

I tend to shove ATC with 3 to 4 limpers in the SB/BB/Button only to find an LP limper has AKs. Is this just generally bad play?

Is there any resources (online/books) which would be helpful to improve my end game?

Mellor

I suppose "HOH2: Endgame" is worth a mention here. Fairly well respected tourney book.

Washout

Mellor wrote: »

I suppose "HOH2: Endgame" is worth a mention here. Fairly well respected tourney book.

yeah thats one im going to reread.

over the past year Ive been concentrating on tourny play less and ring game alot more.

I guess one thing i am looking at also is PT stats and how they should look and change from early MTT to End Game strategy.

ollyk1

Washout wrote: »

Hi Guys

recently I have found myself going quite deep in big field tournies.
I am quite often making it into the top 100 of 1K+ fields.

But generally I get there with round about chip average.
My VPIP is 15% with PFR around 10% for MTTs (is this far too tight)

I am not Final Tabling often at all and am trying to better analyse why?
Usually when I get into the top 100 I start getting more aggressive.
situations like the following are quite common. I have 60K with blinds @ 2.5k/5k.

I tend to shove ATC with 3 to 4 limpers in the SB/BB/Button only to find an LP limper has AKs. Is this just generally bad play?

Is there any resources (online/books) which would be helpful to improve my end game?

How many games are we talking about here?

I'd generally just say run better John tbh. I doubt you are making any big mistakes.

As you know an average player should make the FT 1 in 10 times from this spot. Missing out on the FT in 20 big tournies straight would hardly even register on the long run scale and is definitely not statistically significant. Plus you are talking about shallow stacked pushbot poker so the skill edge is hardly massive even if you are Phil Ivey. Therefore the best you could realistically hope for is to make the FT 1 in 8 or 9 times from this spot (assuming you are one of the best players in the remaining field).

Plus you ran hotter than the sun for a while so you are due a slump ;)

For me the answer is probably play more and maybe change SN so the odd decent player who recognises you and is inclined to slowplay AK (why you would ever try to "trap" with this hand I don't know) or a big PP in the hopes of you pushing behind won't know who you are and that you are inclined to make such moves.

Other than that keep shoving and run better


Plus post this in the theory forum. Nothing should be posted in the main forum anymore!! :rolleyes:

Mellor

ollyk1 wrote: »

I'd generally just say run better John tbh.

Sound advice for all

Plus post this in the theory forum. Nothing should be posted in the main forum anymore!! :rolleyes:

Yup, we need more theory in the HH & theory atm

bops

people tend to call a bb/sb shove light, coz bb/sb shoves are generally light!

Requiem4adream

Washout wrote: »

Hi Guys

recently I have found myself going quite deep in big field tournies.
I am quite often making it into the top 100 of 1K+ fields.

But generally I get there with round about chip average.
My VPIP is 15% with PFR around 10% for MTTs (is this far too tight)

I am not Final Tabling often at all and am trying to better analyse why?
Usually when I get into the top 100 I start getting more aggressive.
situations like the following are quite common. I have 60K with blinds @ 2.5k/5k.

I tend to shove ATC with 3 to 4 limpers in the SB/BB/Button only to find an LP limper has AKs. Is this just generally bad play?

Is there any resources (online/books) which would be helpful to improve my end game?

I've always viewed tournaments as having an a) and b) part to them. a) is getting from 1000+ runners to <100 and b) is converting that situation to an FT. The easier part is a) by far.

% of hands played is not the statistic to be concentrating on. I've FT'd a recent tournament with 9% hands played and my previous FT was 17%. % of hands played will always be dependent on a couple of factors - what style you play and what hands you are getting, and the dynamics of the table. A super-aggressive player might try run all over a weak passive table or conversely rein it back a little bit on a table of lunatics.

During current Hold'em session you were dealt x hands and saw flop:
- x out of x times while in big blind (x%)
- x out of x times while in small blind (x%)
- x out of x times in other positions (x%)
- a total of x out of x (x%)

Like i said these stats are not overly important and are subjective. There is no right answer. There's more than 1 road to the Final Table, whether you play a lot of hands or a few hands, it's what you do with them that counts.

Pots won at showdown - x of x (x%)

In so far as possible make sure this % is really good. 70%+ over 300-400 hands is not too bad. If you're winning a large % of pots at showdown then that's a surefire recipe for going deep. Conversely if this % is low then it means you're getting to showdown too often with hands you shouldnt be at the river with so re-evaluate your preflop and postflop play.

Pots won without showdown - x

Again, this is style dependent. A LAG will have a tendency to win more pots without showdown so this number could be very high, or a TAG playing fewer hands could take down just a few crucial pots without showdown. The number itself isnt that important. The important thing is when you are in the b) part of the tournament, getting from 100 down to 9, this should be steadily increasing. As the blinds soar, if you're not taking pots down without showdown you're going to get yourself in a position where you will be called light. Remember, if you're not called you cant lose.

Next tournament you go deep in post the stat box in here to take a look at it

jimmii

Keep an eye out on whatever site you play for the big tourneys and then when they get down to the last 50 or so log in and watch how the players play. 15/10 is too tight for most online MTTs really you just don't have that much play. After the first few levels you want to have worked out which players you can target and take as many small pots off them as possible especially players who show no interest in defending their blinds. You really need to be reaching the top 2% of these big fields to be showing a decent return as the first five or so payout levels aren't even double the buy-in. Late on people love to limp with big hands looking for someone to shove on them focus more on finding people to target for re-steals.

You also want to get more aggressive before the top 100 of the 1k fields as that will be after the bubble has burst and players won't mind busting as much. You really want to approach the bubble with a healthy stack that you can use to abuse the players who are afraid of not cashing. You can normally add enough to your stack at the bubble, using aggressive play, to be able to see yourself very deep. To see it in action look up Andy McLeod on Stars during any $100+ tourney you see little of him for a level or two and then he goes on a rampage either going bust of having a massive stack and using it to run over everyone.

Requiem4adream

jimmii wrote: »

To see it in action look up Andy McLeod on Stars during any $100+ tourney you see little of him for a level or two and then he goes on a rampage either going bust of having a massive stack and using it to run over everyone.

I think you'd be much better off watching Allinstevie play. Andy is hyper aggro and plays primarily $100 and $200 rebuys etc it's almost a different game in those games and i dont think it's overly helpful to try translate that to a $20nl or $5 rebuy.

jimmii

Requiem4adream wrote: »

I think you'd be much better off watching Allinstevie play. Andy is hyper aggro and plays primarily $100 and $200 rebuys etc it's almost a different game in those games and i dont think it's overly helpful to try translate that to a $20nl or $5 rebuy.

I don't think any strategy can be used in a $5 rebuy really! Most players have no understanding of relative hand values and are really just looking to gamble. If OP posts what levels he is playing it might be easier to say what is best to do. The best strategy in each tournament is often dictated by the structure as much as the players.

Washout

bops wrote: »

people tend to call a bb/sb shove light, coz bb/sb shoves are generally light!

so we should set a shove range? JTs+ ?

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

Washout

ollyk1 wrote: »

How many games are we talking about here?

I'd generally just say run better John tbh. I doubt you are making any big mistakes.

aye your right here Ollie....but ideally Poker Tracker analysis will point out potential tournie leaks i may have.
I guess I will also start posting hands as well for advice...a feature I use very rarely here

ollyk1 wrote: »

Plus you ran hotter than the sun for a while so you are due a slump ;)

you had a big part to play in this as you helped me become a better live tournie player with some of the chats we had. If it wasnt for wife rake i may still be killing the live tournie low buy in game.

ollyk1 wrote: »

For me the answer is probably play more and maybe change SN so the odd decent player who recognises you and is inclined to slowplay AK (why you would ever try to "trap" with this hand I don't know) or a big PP in the hopes of you pushing behind won't know who you are and that you are inclined to make such moves.

Players tend to think that trapping is optimum play at the end game but to me its bad. letting too many players in cheaply is the root cause of all bad players troubles.

For me early stage tournies is all about post flop play but the deeper you go the majority of players around you turn it into a pre flop game.

ollyk1 wrote: »

Plus post this in the theory forum. Nothing should be posted in the main forum anymore!! :rolleyes:

by all means admins do move....there is either too much org or too little

jimmii wrote: »

I don't think any strategy can be used in a $5 rebuy really! Most players have no understanding of relative hand values and are really just looking to gamble. If OP posts what levels he is playing it might be easier to say what is best to do. The best strategy in each tournament is often dictated by the structure as much as the players.

I like the Gtd evening tournies on stars...such as the daily 50 grand $50 buy in. also the rebuy tournies are great as if you can amass a decent stack by the break you get to play deep stack poker.

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Washout - play like a ****ing maniac on the bubble. Once you are in the money it is too late to build a stack. Get stuck in from 20 out from the money until the bubble bursts opening every pot that is folded to you and 3 betting any mid or late position opens. Doing this will lower your percentage of cashes but will increase your end ROI as you will have a bigger stack on average the times you do cash and get to the business end.

Im going to start experimenting with this I guess I do get the TLS factor a bit too much. but your right the majority of players also will have the TLS factor so this needs to be exploited.

strewelpeter

Washout wrote: »

...but ideally Poker Tracker analysis will point out potential tournie leaks i may have.
...

I only ever use PT for cash. I thought it was of very limited use for MTT analysis. Does anyone have any advice / links on how to get some value out of it for tournaments.

jimmii wrote:

Keep an eye out on whatever site you play for the big tourneys and then when they get down to the last 50 or so log in and watch how the players play.

There are some good players who put their HH's on pokerXfactor so you can review them and look at their comments - one very good blog that does this is Andy Ward's Secrets of the Ametuers

jimmii

Washout wrote: »

I like the Gtd evening tournies on stars...such as the daily 50 grand $50 buy in. also the rebuy tournies are great as if you can amass a decent stack by the break you get to play deep stack poker.
QUOTE]

I play the same one's. After a while you see the same names cropping up at top on a regular basis so mark these guys out to avoid. I normally stay pretty quiet for the first half hour then start to play at 25/50 it gives you enough time to check out the players and the pots are rarely worth winning in the first two levels. You normally don't need to mix it up too much until around 60% of the field is gone then you can go about stealing and re-stealing and building a stack that you can wield like a madman when nearing the bubble.