Serious Noise Problems with Affordable House

jgoodman05

Hello Forum,

Been moved into my new affordable home for a few months now and everything is great, apart from the fact that every single movement of my neighbours above is like an earthquake in my apartment. Some say its cause they've wooden floors , others say its cause there timber framed apartments and the impact noise won't be greatly reduced even if they remove their floors and put down carpet. I'm about to initiate contact with the council over the issue and some kind of resolution. Has anyone had any similar problems ? How did you deal with it ? Did you get it sorted?

Any information much appreciated . Cheers

Electric

Not the same situation but when my friend bought her first house she had the same problems with noise. It was a 3 bed semi but my god you could hear everything. It used to freak her out at night because the footsteps were so loud you would be convinced there was someone in the house.

Anyway long story short the house next door was rented and the landlord just wasn't interested. She got her side of the walls sound proofed. Essentially wooden battons were placed on her wall and then plaster board was placed over them the gap was filled with some sound insulating material (don't have a clue as to what). The net effect was that the sound was really reduced. The only downside was that she lost about 2-3 inches of space along the common walls.

But it made life easier.

Would it be possible to drop your ceilings in a similiar way? Are the ceilings sufficiently high that 2-3 inches could be taken off?

Victor

Definitely bring it up with the council and builder, sooner rather than later.

The_Conductor

To be honest, the fact that its an affordable house is neither here nor there- most houses that have been recently built have serious noise issues. Building codes changed back in the early 90's, allowing a single cinder wall be designated as soundproofing between properties (which I assure you, it simply is not).

I would seriously advise that you dig out a copy of your lease though- normally in apartment style buildings they specify what flooring materials have to be used in the different apartments- i.e. in mine a carpet or rug of at least 2.5mm depth has to be on the ground floor and ceramic tiling is expressely forbidden. I imagine that your lease probably has similar clauses in it- which are something that you could hit the owner of the unit above you with......

S.

jgoodman05

Unfortunately Electric the ceilings are quite low , taking 2-3 inches off would make it like the 1/2 floor in Being John Malkovich. The lease makes some very vague note about floors must be to the specification of the Property Management company but fails to give any specifications. I mentioned that the apartment was purchased on the Affordable Housing Scheme as I'm unsure as to how and in what order to contact the Council, Property Management Company and Builders respectively. I hoped someone may have been through the same situation and have some tips. Thanks for the help, fingers crossed I can get it sorted.

jamie5

hi j,

I too recently purchased an apartment on the Affordable Housing scheme and am having the same problem.
There are small children upstairs and sometimes I think that they are going to come through the ceiling, its really upsetting as I really love the apartment.
I have tried to speak to the people upstairs but am not really getting very far and to be honest I don't want to start falling out with people so early on.
I have been doing a little research on soundproofing my ceiling but have not yet got much info in regards to effectiveness, cost etc.
I have been advised by people to speak to the builders/council but I am having various other problems:leaks,immersion not working, heating, leak in the hallway and I have not had much luck in getting any resolution for these so I doubht they'll even bother with this.

Have you had any more luck in getting this sorted.

ixoy

On this - is there any way to determine the level of sound-proofing of a house/apartment before you buy? I hate noise leaking in from other places when I'm renting but it'd be a nightmare to find it after you've handed over the next 30 years of your life.

Victor

In practice, go up stairs and throw a tantrum and go next door and bang on the walls.

Or you could spend €500 on a sound engineer.

jgoodman05

Hello jamie5,

Yeah I approached neighbours , but to no avail, have been on to the council, to no avail, property management company have talked about getting them to put rugs down in the worse spots, which is unlikely to happen. I'm not sure what my next move is , sometimes I think I can just put up with it but then I'm woken up in the morning just by them walking around, or sit through what sounds like the ceiling collapsing as they walk round their siiting room. Not sure what to do at the minute. Any developments with your situation , please let me know. Do your neighbours have wooden floors , do you think thats the main problem, if they had carpret do you think it would improve significantly?

Cheers

BostonB

smccarrick wrote: »

To be honest, the fact that its an affordable house is neither here nor there- most houses that have been recently built have serious noise issues. Building codes changed back in the early 90's, allowing a single cinder wall be designated as soundproofing between properties (which I assure you, it simply is not). ...

There really should be more regulation about sound pollution.

eth0_

BostonB wrote: »

There really should be more regulation about sound pollution.

There is! Laws were brought in quite some time ago regarding sound insulation in new apartments and houses.

You should speak to the council and find out if the builder ignored this law. He could be in quite a bit of trouble if he did.

bugler

Lack of sound-proofing is definitely one of the characteristics of the building frenzy. I'm not sure if the requirements are insufficient, or if builders just ignored them (I suspect the latter).

In our apartment we had trouble again with kids living above us. I think something was done after complaints to the Mgt Co., as it died down. But I think the family have moved on now. Nevertheless, I can hear my neighbours on either side of me very easily if I leave my room(s) in silence, even to the point where I can tell what they're saying.

The_Conductor

Of possible interest- I posted this previously, its to do with Noise Nuisance.

Shane

MrVostro

get something that makes lots of noise, like a drill. Attach it to your ceiling and whenever things go quiet upstairs let it rip.
Let it rip at regular intervals during the night and all day when you are at work.

Attach it in such a way that the vibrations go right through to upstairs.

They will soon feel your pain.

eth0_

MrVostro wrote: »

get something that makes lots of noise, like a drill. Attach it to your ceiling and whenever things go quiet upstairs let it rip.
Let it rip at regular intervals during the night and all day when you are at work.

Attach it in such a way that the vibrations go right through to upstairs.

They will soon feel your pain.

Wow, *that's* a mature suggestion :rolleyes:

The OP never said they were causing excessive noise, its the way the apartments are constructed that is the problem.

MrVostro

eth0_ wrote: »

Wow, *that's* a mature suggestion :rolleyes:

The OP never said they were causing excessive noise, its the way the apartments are constructed that is the problem.

He said he got no help from the neighbours.

People should be respectful of others right to peace and quiet.

Sometimes thats what it takes to get it.

eth0_

MrVostro wrote: »

He said he got no help from the neighbours.

What do you expect them to do? It's a bit unfair to expect them to pay for insulation, or to put a carpet down. The builder should be held responsible imo.

The_Conductor

eth0_ wrote:

The builder should be held responsible imo.

In many cases the lack of insulation between units is inherently recognised in the leases- where it often specifies that carpet of at least a certain thickness must be laid in certain room, ceramic tiles are not allowed- etc. etc. Compliance with a stipulation such as that is a matter for the Management Company to enforce, not the builder.

To be honest- apartments are quite literally on top of each other- there is a degree of inevitability regarding noise and noise pollution. You are entitled to expect to live there without a constant ongoing problem however. Masonry drilling late at night, loud base music, televisions on at a high volume- these are all the sorts of things that you are entitled to expect protection from. Someone listening to the tv at a reasonable volume, holding a conversation, walking around opening and closing doors in an adjacent apartment- are not. I can clearly hear meetings that occur in the offices next door to me on one side- or when our neighbours are having a party or sex or going to the bathroom- on the other side. Its why I intend to move as soon as the property market stabilises. It is however a fact of life (no pun intended).

What I would seriously advise the OP to do is get a copy of their lease that they signed when they purchased the property it will most probably have a section on noise pollution- and in conjunction with their lease have a little look at the short word document I posted here- between the two documents you will get an idea of what is considered allowable, and what is not- and how to proceed.

janmc

jgoodman05 - it might be worth posting this in Construction & Planning, because as someone else commented, there are regulations that a builder/architect must comply with with regard to acoustics. I'm not in work so can't check at the moment. Good luck.

eth0_

How come apartments and houses built before the past ten years tend to have no problems with noise insulation?

It's just assh0le builders skimping on costs, putting up crappy stud walls to save money. It should not be allowed, IMO.

BostonB

A friend of mind lives in an apartment that is pretty much sound proof. I think it has concrete floors and walls. I assume that most of these apartments and houses have sound problems due to construction methods that were used. I don't think you should have to rely on flooring and insulation to soundproof.

Del2005

smccarrick wrote: »

To be honest, the fact that its an affordable house is neither here nor there- most houses that have been recently built have serious noise issues. Building codes changed back in the early 90's, allowing a single cinder wall be designated as soundproofing between properties (which I assure you, it simply is not).

S.

eth0_ wrote: »

How come apartments and houses built before the past ten years tend to have no problems with noise insulation?

It's just assh0le builders skimping on costs, putting up crappy stud walls to save money. It should not be allowed, IMO.

They are compling with building codes, the codes are crap.

It's similar to energy rating for houses, that was supposed to have been in years ago. But a few brown envelopes allowed the builders to keep making baddly insulted houese that people will have to pay a fortune to heat.

Del2005

BostonB wrote: »

A friend of mind lives in an apartment that is pretty much sound proof. I think it has concrete floors and walls. I assume that most of these apartments and houses have sound problems due to construction methods that were used. I don't think you should have to rely on flooring and insulation to soundproof.

They aren't relying on flooring to insulate sound. It's that some types of floor allow sound to pass through easier. Loads of people are putting down wooden floors, these are noisey and thats why they are banned. My parents neighbours put down wooden floors, we never heard anything from them for 30+ years but now when our house is quite you can hear them walking around.

patrickolee

I think it's layers and more importantly cavities between the layers that gives you the sound insulation. Solid concrete no matter how thick wont give you insulation of sound.

Victor

eth0_ wrote: »

How come apartments and houses built before the past ten years tend to have no problems with noise insulation?

Oh there did have problems. However, terraces and apartments are now making up more of the market compared to the previous love of semi-detached and detached houses.

patrickolee wrote: »

I think it's layers and more importantly cavities between the layers that gives you the sound insulation. Solid concrete no matter how thick wont give you insulation of sound.

It depends on the type of sound. Some sounds are easily carried by air. Some are easily carried by solid materials.

With 200mm of concrete, you won't hear a conversation on the other side. You will most certainly a kango.

BostonB

patrickolee wrote: »

I think it's layers and more importantly cavities between the layers that gives you the sound insulation. Solid concrete no matter how thick wont give you insulation of sound.

So a concrete of a metre thick isn't going to have any effect on sound?

Increasing the mass of a wall or a floor significantly improves the sound insulation of a room, provided all gaps are sealed. The high density of concrete provides a high level of sound insulation against both impact and airborne-sourced sounds such as voice, loudspeakers and musical instruments.

http://www.concretecentre.com/main.asp?page=1269

The_Conductor

First of all- who in their right mind is going to have a meter of concrete- you could land a jumbo on it.......

In all fairness- timber can be everybit as good an insulation material, and a better structural material, than concrete. There has been a guerilla warfare between the concrete industry and the timber industry with each pushing the relative merits of their materials over the other for almost 20 years now. A temporary restraining order was placed on the concrete federation of Ireland from using the "Concrete built-is better built" slogan (since lapsed) in media advertising campaigns.

Obviously if you keep thickening any material it will be better at insulating than a thin layer. However- and the principle on which double glazed windows works, is that multiple layers can have the same effect as very thick layers- at a much reduced price. Cavity walls- *with* insulation, of either wood or concrete can be very effective- unfortunately that insulation is noticeably absent in a lot of recent constructions.

While I am not going to argue the relative merits of noise reduction- it costs significantly less (up to 30% less) to heat a wooden structured house with sufficient attic and wall insulation than it does a similar concrete structure- and for a much lower price.

Is concrete better than timber- is a debate that that will continue to go on for a long long time. Its certainly stronger when formulated properly- but each has their own place.

BostonB

Other than yourself who is arguing concrete better than timber?

The point I'm making is that depth has an effect, patrickolee said it didn't. Having multiple layers as you say is simply a means to achieve what one thick layer achieves. So again that confirms that thick layers have an effect. Obviously its not practical or economical to have very thick layers. Unless you are using something like straw. But the problem these days is making claims that something like studded walls is the same as a thick block or concrete wall/floor if its done right. But then its not done right and all thats achieved is low cost and little or no sound isolation.

I did work on a project once where we built giant cold rooms, for storing food in a processing plant. We poured thick concrete floors about the size of a football pitch and had thick (6" or more) expanded polystyrene sheets layer in it. I think it might have used a few sheets deep, I can't remember now.

sham69

Hi,
Slightly off topic but is there a certain time at night when heavy banging and drilling has to stop?
New neighbors have gutted the house next door and are driving us mad with the noise. I understand they have to get the house done but the heavy drilling (really intense) starts most nights at 8pm.
I have a 4 month old baby boy and its scaring the Shi* out of him.
I have asked them to knock in when they are going to be doing heavy stuff but they havent. I had a run in with them and they start saying "its not like it was late?"
the point I was trying to make was that I had asked them to let me know when they were going to be drilling and doing heavy stuff.
Not going to do anything more as I know they are well within their rights to do what they are doing.
I was just wondering what the curfew time is and does it change on a Sunday?
The neighbors said and I quote "Its not like that anymore, builders work on Sundays and late hours, it not like it was years ago when you had to stop at a certain time.
Any advice would be appreciated.
Thanks
Sham.

BostonB

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/environment/environmental-protection/noise_regulations

A friend of mine had a some success with neighbours who played loud music very late. Had to bring them to court I think. I can't remember the specifics.

sham69

cheers for the reply.
I am not thinking of bringing any action as they seem a nice couple.
I was just curious (as a backup) to know if there is a specific time at night when work or heavy work should stop and was wondering what the story is on a Sunday.
Surely there are still some laws on loud noise on a Sunday?
God I feel like a grumpy old man posting this....

BostonB

Nice people do not start drilling and banging at 8pm when theres a baby next door. They are just being selfish.

http://www.environ.ie/en/Environment/NoisePollution/

jdivision

Sounds like they're doing it after work. I'm not sure if you can do anything because they don't seem to have needed planning - planning usually stipulate 8am-7pm as only hours where noise can be made and they have to start a bit later at weekends.

sham69

Cheers all for the replies.
Its just annoying that they don't do the heavy drilling during the day.
It seems that its mates that are doing a favour by doing it after work and so we have to suffer. They havent even moved in yet and they are not around when the work is being done so its not them that have the headaches from the noise, it sounds like they are going to come through the wall.
I hate arguing and know its tough for them as I think the house was in worse shape than they knew when they bought it, I just think it is a little bit selfish not to at least knock in and tell us that the noise would be bad. a bit of common courtesy between neighbours. If this is what they are like now I fear the worst for the future. I suppose bottom line is I am really annoyed at the fact that they know we have a new baby but still couldnt bother to knock in and tell us.
Thanks all for listening, needed to get it off my chest as my missus is giving me grief for causing the hassle (she's in work today and I am on babysitting duties.).
Hopefully they will only be another weeks or so.
Thanks Again.

BostonB

At the very least could they not do it at the weekend and warn you first. You could arrange to stay overnight if you knew in advance.

The_Conductor

Sham69 - unfortunately, regardless of how much you hate arguing- you are going to have to get yourself together and go and talk to them. If they continue to ignore you and your family's best interests- then you should officially complain. I went through the exact same thing as you, overnight masonry drilling allday/allnight work at weekends for a 6 month period for what seemed like a small job. I got all sorts of assurances from the people concerned that it wouldn't impinge on me- assurances that weren't worth the breath they were said in. For the sake of your family officially complain and do it immediately. Nice neighbourly spirit doesn't exist anymore- don't be fooled.

sham69

Thanks again for the replies.
I am now understanding that neighbours are not what they used to be.
When I lived with the folks (only 2.5 years ago) there was a great spirit around the road. If a picture was being hung on a wall someone would call in to say there would be noise. I didnt want to threaten any action against them as they are a young couple trying to get their house in shape. I was simply annoyed at the lack of common courtesy displayed by them. I am only renting the house so feel a bit cheeky. They said nearly all of the heavy stuff is done so hopefully it is. I have a bad feeling about them as new neghbours, not the best of starts and after having a chat (arguement) with the girl yesterday I would say she takes no prisoners. She accused me of telling the worker to stop (when I knocked in to ask would the drilling be going on for long) He got on the phone and rang her and she came steaming around to my house. I really don't need the hassle at the moment as my baby boy is teething badly and we are not sleeping. I will see how the next couple of days go and take it from there.
Thanks again all for the replies and support.

The_Conductor

It really sounds like the writing is on the wall.
Thankfully you're renting- and not likely to have to put up with them for years to come. Remember that you're family comes first- don't put up with crap from her just because "she takes no prisoners". She is the one at fault- she is trying to turn the situation so that you feel guilty.

S.

SimpleSam06

sham69 wrote: »

He got on the phone and rang her and she came steaming around to my house.

I had a similar problem myself at one stage. The couple next door took off to a hotel for the night and we had to put up with drilling and banging for the entire night. Next morning I was on the phone to the council (its affordable housing or something next door I think) and it didn't happen again. You're in the right, if she comes steaming around again let her know you wont hesitate to move to the next level. Its the only way to deal with people like that.

sham69

The missus is giving me grief as as she says " They are well within their rights"
to be doing what they are doing. I simple want some notice if they are going to be doing heavy work, is it too much to ask for. I thought there were rules for banging and hammering on Sundays but obviously there isn't.
If it carries on I will have to threaten action, which I don't want to do but as said here; family comes first.
I will keep you all posted.

The_Conductor

sham69 wrote: »

The missus is giving me grief as as she says " They are well within their rights"
to be doing what they are doing. I simple want some notice if they are going to be doing heavy work, is it too much to ask for. I thought there were rules for banging and hammering on Sundays but obviously there isn't.
If it carries on I will have to threaten action, which I don't want to do but as said here; family comes first.
I will keep you all posted.

They are not "well within their rights" to be doing this.

Noise, including that coming from other homes, that is continuous, repeated, loud and occurring at such times and of such duration that it affects the quality of life of the person is covered in Irish law.

The law in Ireland governing this area is (Section 108) of the Environmental Protection Agency Act 1992 and the Environmental Protection Agency Act (Noise) Regulations 1994 (SI No. 179 of 1994). While the law does not specifically mention an exact level or standard of noise that is illegal, it is clear that if neighbourhood noise is affecting the quality of life of a citizen, then you have a right to complain. Your local authority has the power to investigate complaints about neighbourhood noise and also has specialist equipment that measures levels of sound.

Rules
Making a complaint
You should approach the person or business causing the noise and explain that it is a nuisance and try to come to a mutually acceptable solution. If this does not work, your local authority has the same power as individuals to bring noise complaints to the District Court. In addition, local authorities have similar powers to the Environmental Protection Agency in relation to premises, processes and works other than those that require licensing under the Environmental Protection Agency Act. The Environmental Protection Agency can require the person or body to take specific measures to prevent or limit noise. Anyone required to take such specific measures by the Environmental Protection Agency must do so or face prosecution.

If you wish to make a complaint to the District Court, you are not required to be represented by a solicitor, however, you may engage the assistance of a solicitor to help prepare your noise complaint and present this in court. You should consult with the Clerk of your local District Court about an appointment for the hearing of your case and refer precisely to the law relating to your case (Section 108 of the Environmental Protection Agency Act 1992 and the Environmental Protection Agency Act 1992 (Noise) Regulations 1994 (SI No. 179 of 1994).

The appointment for the hearing of your case must be at least 7 days later than the date on which you inform the person responsible for the noise nuisance that you will be taking your case to court. You must use a Environmental Protection Agency Act, 1992 - noise form of notice to inform the person or business that you will be taking them to court. It is important that you use this form of notice only and that you complete it fully and accurately.

The District Court will call both parties together and listens to both sides of the case. If the court finds in your favour, it can order the person or body to limit the noise, reduce the level of noise or stop the noise completely. Any Orders made by the court must be complied with.

Penalties for breach of law
The maximum fine for conviction on breach of noise regulations is 3,000 euro or 12 months in prison or both.

How to apply
Approach the person responsible for the noise and try to reach a mutually acceptable solution. If you have tried to resolve the problem amicably and this has not worked, you may then refer your complaint to your local authority, or you can take your complaint directly to your local District Court or the Environmental Protection Authority.

Where to apply
Environmental Protection Agency
P.O. Box 3000,
Johnstown Castle Estate
Co. Wexford.
Tel: (053) 60600
Fax: (053) 60699
E-mail: info@epa.ie