Saudi Arabia in the dark ages

jonny72

Honestly and truly

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7096814.stm
"An appeal court in Saudi Arabia has doubled the number of lashes and added a jail sentence as punishment for a woman who was gang-raped"

not to mention..

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/ukcorrespondents/holysmoke/november07/how-to-beat-your-wife.htm
How to beat your wife..

I am amazed we even do business with a country like this, but whatever same story, our governments have no morals, sell arms to whoever, blah blah

Mr.Micro

Its the oil they have which makes us all impervious to its human rights record.The West is scared of upsetting the Saudis at all costs .

purple'n'gold

Ok, we all know what the Arabs/Saudis are like, and that they still live in the dark ages. But check out this link.
http://www.facts1.com/general/news.htm#pizza
It’s about California’s three strike law. A guy actually got LIFE in prison for stealing a pizza.
Now we expect no better from Arabs, and we all know that Americans are not exactly the most sophisticated of people, but this is way over the top. What I am doing is making a comparison between, enlightenment (Europe for instance) and cruelty, USA/Saudi Arabia. Both countries still use the death penalty of course.

bobbyjoe

And the King got the red carpet treatment in the UK from the Queen last week. Makes all this spreading democracy, fighting tyrants and fredom stuff ring very hollow.

donaghs

purplengold wrote: »

Ok, we all know what the Arabs/Saudis are like, and that they still live in the dark ages. But check out this link.
http://www.facts1.com/general/news.htm#pizza
It’s about California’s three strike law. A guy actually got LIFE in prison for stealing a pizza.
Now we expect no better from Arabs, and we all know that Americans are not exactly the most sophisticated of people, but this is way over the top. What I am doing is making a comparison between, enlightenment (Europe for instance) and cruelty, USA/Saudi Arabia. Both countries still use the death penalty of course.

It certainly seems over the top, but for a 27-year old he certainly had amassed plenty of convictions: "Williams prior convictions were for robbery, attempted robbery, unauthorized use of a motor vehicle and possession of a controlled substance."

How can you compare this guy to a woman who has been gang-raped?

purple'n'gold

The comparison I am making is between repressive regimes like the USA and Saudi Arabia and enlightened countries in western Europe.

djpbarry

donaghs wrote: »

It certainly seems over the top, but for a 27-year old he certainly had amassed plenty of convictions: "Williams prior convictions were for robbery, attempted robbery, unauthorized use of a motor vehicle and possession of a controlled substance."

Fair enough, but should a guy spend the rest of his life in prison for a series of petty crimes? I would have to say no.

djpbarry

purplengold wrote: »

Now we expect no better from Arabs

By "Arabs" I presume you mean the Saudi Monarchy?

Mick86

purplengold wrote: »

Ok, we all know what the Arabs/Saudis are like, and that they still live in the dark ages. But check out this link.
http://www.facts1.com/general/news.htm#pizza
It’s about California’s three strike law. A guy actually got LIFE in prison for stealing a pizza.
Now we expect no better from Arabs, and we all know that Americans are not exactly the most sophisticated of people, but this is way over the top. What I am doing is making a comparison between, enlightenment (Europe for instance) and cruelty, USA/Saudi Arabia. Both countries still use the death penalty of course.

Thank God we live in enlightened Ireland where a murderer can get as little as 12 months behind bars.:rolleyes:

InFront

The Saudi Regime is in the dark ages on many issues. The regime is largely racist, misogynist and corrupt, it is politically and ideologically opportunistic and has no loyalty but to wealth. Saudis and religious leaders there need to compare their own values to those of their monarchy and their rulers, then change the latter accordingly.

The leadership of KSA has secured its nesting place both through wealth and through politics, and that is what has guaranteed both its stability and the immense social problems and injustices this brings.

Sand

purplengold wrote:

Fair enough, but should a guy spend the rest of his life in prison for a series of petty crimes? I would have to say no.

The 3 strikes law was brought in to deal with habitual criminals who crimes taken in their own right would be fairly minor, but as a continuing track record would be a serious problem. Personally any law of such a sort would have to have some minimum degree of offence locked into it to prevent people getting life for stealing a pizza, but on the other hand - its a bit of an IQ test.

Remember thats only the crimes the guy has been caught, arrested, tried and convicted for. This is not a some guy caught in the wrong time and the wrong place and mistakenly convicted 3 times in a row.

InFront - The issues with the Saudi legal system run deeper than just the leadership. I am not aware of the injustice of the courts sentencing sparking any outrage in SA so based on imperfect infomration admittedly I must assume the laws and judgements that resulted in this sentence must be broadly supported.

If anything, I would have thought this womans only hope is that international pressure leads the SA leadership to grant some form of pardon to this woman as I understand they are more "liberal" than the everyday population on issues like this. Not saying there arent Saudis who would disagree with the sentence, just that the problem runs deeper than just the ruling regime.

InFront

Sand wrote: »

InFront - The issues with the Saudi legal system run deeper than just the leadership. I am not aware of the injustice of the courts sentencing sparking any outrage in SA so based on imperfect infomration admittedly I must assume the laws and judgements that resulted in this sentence must be broadly supported.

Saudi is an extremely diverse place with hugely vascillating public opinion is issues such as criminal law and ethics. I don't agree this would be "broadly supported" at all.

I understand they are more "liberal" than the everyday population on issues like this

Where are you getting this information? Most people would be of the opinion that the legislature and the general leadership are the "purists" of Saudi society; and I only use that term in relation to a misguided sense of purity.

Mr.Micro

It appears to me that a person would have to do very little to incur the wrath of the authorities in S Arabia.There is no opposition parties so any reprehensible laws or policies would be carried out without opposition.

supertramp

What I don't understand is that how the issue of 'War On Terror' to be very selective, is remaining simply as a topic of debate, and that these governments are not being tackled shows that peolpe are not in any way near in control, as democracy should be.
Although I agree the US, Britain, etc have to take a tough stance on terrorism, but it's how they gloat about bringing (allegedly) democrasy to Iraq, Afghanistan, while they ignore other, more prominent anti-democrasy states like Sudan, Venezuala. And the US are also supporting President Musharraf in Pakistan, when he is doing what he is doing to that country.
Democracy is a scape-goat for politicians

Mr.Micro

supertramp wrote: »

What I don't understand is that how the issue of 'War On Terror' to be very selective, is remaining simply as a topic of debate, and that these governments are not being tackled shows that peolpe are not in any way near in control, as democracy should be.
Although I agree the US, Britain, etc have to take a tough stance on terrorism, but it's how they gloat about bringing (allegedly) democrasy to Iraq, Afghanistan, while they ignore other, more prominent anti-democrasy states like Sudan, Venezuala. And the US are also supporting President Musharraf in Pakistan, when he is doing what he is doing to that country.
Democracy is a scape-goat for politicians

Yes it appears if you cosy up to The US and UK ,no matter how bad your own country s human rights are , you are safe in the club .Democracy is just a word to be used when it suits .

pjproby

I tried to raise this on the Islam board here and one respondent considered it to be a gender issue. The moderator then closed the thread.
I wonder did it ever dawn on the victim that it was all about gender!

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055184435

InFront

It isn't a theology issue nor does it even relate to Irish Muslims; you raised it as a political issue, which is why it was closed.

Democracy is just a word to be used when it suits .

Absolutely. But there are no loyalties in the Middle East, Saudi knows this, the US know this. It wasn't so long ago that the US/UK and Iraq were conspiring against the Iranians, for example, nor since the Iranians were conspiring with the US/UK against Iraq.
Nobody knows what the future holds for KSA, but the as long as both parties continue to benefit, the current arrangement, a bargain of two devils, will stand - regardless of human rights abuses there or what the UN says.

Mick86

pjproby wrote: »

I tried to raise this on the Islam board here and one respondent considered it to be a gender issue. The moderator then closed the thread.

They don't like offending muslims on the Islam board. Hanging homosexuals, flogging rape victims and so on is fine but we mustn't make the muslims feel bad.

djpbarry

Mick86 wrote: »

Hanging homosexuals, flogging rape victims and so on is fine but we mustn't make the muslims feel bad.

Of course, Christians, enlightened as they are, never get involved in that sort of thing:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/195158.stm

Simi

Ah he never said he was a christian! I just plain despise u all ! But I doubt Irish muslims will be "Hanging homosexuals, flogging rape victims and so on" anytime soon.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

the lord's resistance army in uganda are pretty unashamedly christian, and they rape/beat children and abduct them for use as soldiers

god.

djpbarry

djpbarry wrote: »

Of course, Christians, enlightened as they are, never get involved in that sort of thing:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/195158.stm

Thats an anti Gay mob.What they did was against the law.
There might be a christian country that hangs homosexuals by law for being just that but I don't think there is.
Feel free to post an example up though.

mick86 wrote:

They don't like offending muslims on the Islam board. Hanging homosexuals, flogging rape victims and so on is fine but we mustn't make the muslims feel bad.

I presume you read the charter of the islam board aswell as this one.

pjproby-you would be better off reading both charters again also.
No more using of this forum for the purpose of complaining about another thank ye.

mordeth wrote:

the lord's resistance army in uganda are pretty unashamedly christian, and they rape/beat children and abduct them for use as soldiers

They're far from representing true christianity.
As an atheist might say-arguing over religion is like arguing as to who has the better imaginary friend.
Some extremists use Religion to their own warped ends.
Thats something that Islam and Christianity have in common that true followers of both would rather didn't go on.
Human nature though is a fickle thing.

pjproby

this thread is about rape and the punishment of a victim. all societies blame rape victims-their dress was too short etc etc. what make this different is that in Saudi the legal system is being used to punish the victim. This is surely unique.

djpbarry

Simi wrote: »

Ah he never said he was a christian! I just plain despise u all ! But I doubt Irish muslims will be "Hanging homosexuals, flogging rape victims and so on" anytime soon.

I know he didn't say he was Christian. I was trying to illustrate the fact that his point was a sweeping generalisation, i.e. all Muslims are homophobic, etc.

Tristrame wrote: »

Thats an anti Gay mob.What they did was against the law.
There might be a christian country that hangs homosexuals by law for being just that but I don't think there is.

But not EVERY Muslim country is intolerant of homosexuality (e.g. Indonesia). The point I was trying to make was that judging Islam based on the actions of a (relatively) few homophobic nutters would be no better than judging Christianity based on the actions of the KKK.

biko

pjproby wrote: »

I tried to raise this on the Islam board here and one respondent considered it to be a gender issue. The moderator then closed the thread.
I wonder did it ever dawn on the victim that it was all about gender!

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055184435

article wrote:

The woman was initially punished for violating laws on segregation of the sexes

I wonder did it ever dawn on the victim that it was all about gender!

I'm sure the victim has been subjected to male dominance in the name of religion all her life, so yes. Of course, if you can point out anywhere where rape is a religious activity, not a male dominance pattern, that'd be great.

Btw, a question end with a question mark, not an exclamation mark.

moe_sizlak

pjproby wrote: »

I tried to raise this on the Islam board here and one respondent considered it to be a gender issue. The moderator then closed the thread.
I wonder did it ever dawn on the victim that it was all about gender!

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055184435

your immiedietly silenced in the muslim forums if you utter even the mildest criticism related to islam or islamic countries , happend me several times , they use the old trick of saying this belongs under another forum in order to fudge the issue , most moderators are crippled by political correctness but in there takes the cake

oscarBravo

The next person to use this forum as a soap box for criticising the moderation of another forum gets a month's ban.

gillyfromlyre

I'd be delighted if 3 strikes were brought in here,maybe for slightly more serious crimes than pizza stealing. Crimes such as assault, burglary etc would do, it would get rid of a lot of the tracksuit wearing rectal minded dickheads from the streets, try see how enlightened the streets are after 12 on a saturday night, but yes, compared to the arabs we are neons ahead on the civilisation scales

djpbarry

gillyfromlyre wrote: »

I'd be delighted if 3 strikes were brought in here,maybe for slightly more serious crimes than pizza stealing. Crimes such as assault, burglary etc would do, it would get rid of a lot of the tracksuit wearing rectal minded dickheads from the streets, try see how enlightened the streets are after 12 on a saturday night, but yes, compared to the arabs we are neons ahead on the civilisation scales

A hugely contradictory post if ever the was one. If we are "neons ahead" (I’m not sure what neons are) of "Arabs" (or anyone else for that matter) on the "civilisation scale", then why do we need to introduce a "3 strikes" initiative? Seeing as how we're so civil and all?

gillyfromlyre

I'd have a single strike for arabs, because the crime there would probably be totally mindless, like beheading a girl for looking at a car mirror and 3 strikes here, we may be uncivilised here but compared to saudi we live in paradise, no contradiction at all, buy a dictionary

pjproby

oscar bravo- yours is very interesting contribution to this thread - in case you missed it, there is a woman facing the lash for being gang banged (in the wrong company)
lets keep the mods happy
you have lost your sense of outrage!

Mick86

djpbarry wrote: »

Of course, Christians, enlightened as they are, never get involved in that sort of thing:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/195158.stm

Of course. But it's OK to make Christians feel bad.

djpbarry wrote: »

I know he didn't say he was Christian. I was trying to illustrate the fact that his point was a sweeping generalisation, i.e. all Muslims are homophobic, etc.

I didn't say all Muslims were homophobic. My dig was at the Islam board for shutting down a thread that makes them uncomfortable.

djpbarry wrote: »

But not EVERY Muslim country is intolerant of homosexuality (e.g. Indonesia). The point I was trying to make was that judging Islam based on the actions of a (relatively) few homophobic nutters would be no better than judging Christianity based on the actions of the KKK.

I have little respect for Christianity either, if it's any consolation to you.

djpbarry wrote: »

...If we are "neons ahead" (I’m not sure what neons are) of "Arabs" (or anyone else for that matter) on the "civilisation scale", then why do we need to introduce a "3 strikes" initiative? Seeing as how we're so civil and all?

Depends on how you define civilisation.

My definition is a society which is protected from criminals rather than the reverse.

Mick86

moe_sizlak wrote: »

your immiedietly silenced in the muslim forums if you utter even the mildest criticism related to islam or islamic countries , happend me several times , they use the old trick of saying this belongs under another forum in order to fudge the issue , most moderators are crippled by political correctness but in there takes the cake

Seconded.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

yes, it's a forum for discussion of religion. if you want to discuss the political implications of that religion, or jump down the throats of the anti-pork fetishists.. you're either going to have to do it on the politics, humanities or vegetarian forum.
we don't go onto the christian forum to discuss the political ramifications of the neo-con's and the christian right in america, we have politics for that.

djpbarry

Mick86 wrote: »

Of course. But it's OK to make Christians feel bad.

You see that's the problem right there. We are not talking Islam in general; we are talking about an incident that occurred in one particular country. Likewise, it would be unfair to criticise the entire Christian world for a hate-crime that takes place in the southern US.

Mick86 wrote: »

I have little respect for Christianity either, if it's any consolation to you.

No consolation to me – I’m agnostic .

Mick86 wrote: »

Depends on how you define civilisation.

Fair point.

Mick86 wrote: »

My definition is a society which is protected from criminals rather than the reverse.

I’m sure I have made it clear by now that I believe the Saudi Monarchy to be evil incarnate.

Mick86

Mordeth wrote: »

yes, it's a forum for discussion of religion. if you want to discuss the political implications of that religion, or jump down the throats of the anti-pork fetishists.. you're either going to have to do it on the politics, humanities or vegetarian forum.
we don't go onto the christian forum to discuss the political ramifications of the neo-con's and the christian right in america, we have politics for that.

That's because as a Christian (if only in cultural terms), Western Liberal you divide religion from your political, culinary and everyday life. Islam defines the political, culinary and everyday life of it's followers.

If Bertie Ahern decided in the morning that it was the will of God that anyone with ten penalty points on their licence be incarcerated for a year without parole, then that is a religious matter belonging in the Christian forum. Similarly since Saudi Arabia flogs it's women, and worse, citing the will of Allah as sole justification, then it isn't political but religious.

Mick86

djpbarry wrote: »

You see that's the problem right there. We are not talking Islam in general; we are talking about an incident that occurred in one particular country. Likewise, it would be unfair to criticise the entire Christian world for a hate-crime that takes place in the southern US.

I didn't criticise Islam in general.

djpbarry wrote: »

I’m sure I have made it clear by now that I believe the Saudi Monarchy to be evil incarnate.

I was actually talking about Ireland there.

djpbarry

Mick86 wrote: »

That's because as a Christian (if only in cultural terms), Western Liberal you divide religion from your political, culinary and everyday life.

Not sure about that - the church still has a lot of influence in this country.

Mick86 wrote: »

Similarly since Saudi Arabia flogs it's women, and worse, citing the will of Allah as sole justification, then it isn't political but religious.

I would say it is a combination of the two. The Saudi monarchy is using a warped interpretation of religion to justify human rights abuses.

Mick86

djpbarry wrote: »

Not sure about that - the church still has a lot of influence in this country.

Nothing compared to what it once had. Anyway I was talking of the individual. The vast majority, if they practice religion at all, do so on Sunday and forget about it for the rest of the week.

djpbarry wrote: »

The Saudi monarchy is using a warped interpretation of religion to justify human rights abuses.

If the House of Saud was no more the same excesses would continue. You can pull similar stories from many Islamic countries. It's a combination of religion and pre-medieval cultural practices.

djpbarry

Mick86 wrote: »

Nothing compared to what it once had.

Maybe, but whether you like it or not, the church still has an influence in our daily lives. For example, most parents have little choice but to send their children to a Catholic school.

Mick86 wrote: »

If the House of Saud was no more the same excesses would continue.

Who is to say what would happen in Saudi Arabia if the monarchy was "removed"? It is possible things could get worse before they got better (difficult to imagine for women), but without oil (which has to run out eventually) and without US support, the authoritarian regime would struggle to maintain the status quo.

Mick86 wrote: »

You can pull similar stories from many Islamic countries.

The only Muslim countries that come close to Saudi Arabia in terms of human rights abuses are Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan and Libya, although in the case of the latter religion has little to do with these abuses. In fact, I estimate that the majority of authoritarian states in the world are non-Muslim.

Mick86 wrote: »

It's a combination of religion and pre-medieval cultural practices.

Yes and no. I would say the Saudi monarchy uses religion as a pretext to do whatever the hell they want.

You Suck!

yes, it's a forum for discussion of religion. if you want to discuss the political implications of that religion, or jump down the throats of the anti-pork fetishists.. you're either going to have to do it on the politics, humanities or vegetarian forum.
we don't go onto the christian forum to discuss the political ramifications of the neo-con's and the christian right in america, we have politics for that.

Sharia is an Islamic intrument and as such belivers of Islam should awnser for it's implementation. But.....I notice a high density of mods congregating in this thread and as such sense a gathering of the white blood cells :rolleyes:

Fine, If that's to be the Islam forums reponse so be it and it is noted on mine and others opinions of the religion in general. All religions suck ass, Just I thought in this day and age after Irish experiance with the catholic churchs abuses we would be beyond the point of blissfull ignorance.......guess I was wrong.

InFront

There's nothing to be said on the subject of moderating the Islam forum beyond what was said, I think pretty clearly, in the closed Saudi thread
.

You Suck! wrote: »

Sharia is an Islamic intrument and as such belivers of Islam should awnser for it's implementation.

By everybody? Do you know how many Sharia'h judges and advocates and Governments there are? You're saying every Muslim should be responsible for their arbitrary opinions of Islamic jurisprudence in every case?

None of them are infallible, nobody anywhere is making a good example of Shariah, and it is not the case that regular Muslims should be answerable for individual rulings in foreign countries we know little about, rulings which often have little to do with Islam anyway.

Nevyn

Well you do see a lot about how these laws about modesty are detremental to women but they are also detremental do men and give the message that they can not control themselves, that they are too driven by lust and are not strong enough to resist temptation.

oscarBravo

Mick86 is banned for a month. I didn't think I'd been unclear.

pjproby, believe it or not, I am capable of separating my sense of outrage at the inhumanity of the situation under discussion from my role as moderator of this forum. If I decided that the rules could be waived every time someone was outraged about something, I might as well delete the charter.

Future off-topic posts will be deleted and will result in infractions.

gillyfromlyre

djpbarry wrote: »

The only Muslim countries that come close to Saudi Arabia in terms of human rights abuses are Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan and Libya, although in the case of the latter religion has little to do with these abuses. In fact, I estimate that the majority of authoritarian states in the world are non-Muslim

The only muslim countries, thats all, its grand, you make it sound as if every muslim country is totally different, some muslim countries are totally liberal i suppose, just like you, do you realise you are sticking up for this and countless more sick crimes commited by "non authoritarian" muslim states? There is no state boundary when it comes to horrible crimes in the name of islam, look at england, holland, denmark etc and the amount of women suffering there, I'd love to send you to one of your liberal muslim countries, you'd be first against the wall sunshine.

pjproby

djpbarrry- yours are truly interesting posts, i would find them even more interesting if you condemned the particular injustice we are discussing here.
in all your contributions so far you have failed to do so.

oscar bravo- my apologies for the personal nature of my last post- they were unjustified and uncalled for.

djpbarry

gillyfromlyre wrote: »

you make it sound as if every muslim country is totally different

Yes, they are.

gillyfromlyre wrote: »

do you realise you are sticking up for this and countless more sick crimes commited by "non authoritarian" muslim states?

Excuse you, but I have never "stood up" for any crime.

gillyfromlyre wrote: »

There is no state boundary when it comes to horrible crimes in the name of islam, look at england, holland, denmark etc and the amount of women suffering there

Haven't got a clue what you're talking about here. Not sure what this has to do with Saudi Arabia.

gillyfromlyre wrote: »

I'd love to send you to one of your liberal muslim countries, you'd be first against the wall sunshine.

I've been to 3. Had a lovely time, thanks for asking.

pjproby wrote: »

i would find them even more interesting if you condemned the particular injustice we are discussing here.
in all your contributions so far you have failed to do so.

I would have thought I was making myself quite clear here:

djpbarry wrote: »

I’m sure I have made it clear by now that I believe the Saudi Monarchy to be evil incarnate.

You Suck!

InFront wrote: »

By everybody? Do you know how many Sharia'h judges and advocates and Governments there are? You're saying every Muslim should be responsible for their arbitrary opinions of Islamic jurisprudence in every case?

None of them are infallible, nobody anywhere is making a good example of Shariah, and it is not the case that regular Muslims should be answerable for individual rulings in foreign countries we know little about, rulings which often have little to do with Islam anyway.

Im well aware of how decentralized Islam is, in fact Im fascinated both centalised and decentralized religions end up with the same problems.

None the less, Im not saying that individual Muslims should be held accountable, However I do expect them to have the honesty to discuss such issues that relate to their religion!

[mod edit: I've removed references to the Islam forum, as indicated earlier.]

P.S. As an addendum, Im well aware that all religions share these problems, just that if believers of all faiths see themselves as honest, then they should be willing to deal with the issue in public, and that if they truely see themselves as faithful should have no insecuritys in doing so!.

oscarBravo

Perhaps I was unclear earlier.

The next person to complain about the Islam forum on this thread will receive a permanent ban.

Back. On. Topic.

oscarBravo

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055188354