Legality of ticketmaster not refunding booking fees

eth0_

Has anyone ever challenged Ticketmaster on their policy of not refunding booking fees if an event is cancelled? They must make a fortune on it.

Or even on the obscene price of the booking fee itself? 4 euro to print out a ticket and send it in the normal post, not even registered delivery, is pretty OTT.

dudara

I bought tickets a while back for a gig and the fee per ticket was €3.odd. Today I bought tickets for another gig and the fee per ticket is now €5.05.

I would love it if the Irish public actually developed some cohesion for once and forced some action on this issue.

eth0_

I think it depends on the value of the ticket.

Colonel Sanders

why the fuck do they charge on a 'per ticket' basis. joke.

emmagean

you could say the same about Ryanair charging a credit card fee of €6 per passenger per return journey, even though the same Credit Card is used for a booking

Tickets.ie

Speaking from my own experience in the industry and not trying to defend the practices of another ticket service provider.

Sometimes promoters cover the cost of the booking fees when a show is cancelled but most of the time they don't. Booking fees are non refundable because,
1. the card companies do not refund their fees (which can be up to 3% of the total price paid for the tickets);
2. the bank charges two fees, one for the original purchase and the second for the refund;
3. likewise the payment service provider charges two fees;
4. as a financial transaction is taking place VAT must be paid to Revenue;
5. the staff costs - it's quite labour intensive to refund the order and handle associated queries.

If booking fees were to be refunded the ticket service provider could be at a very serious loss when events are cancelled (especially for bigger shows).

If the current legislation were to change I estmate that booking fees would have to increase by 15% at least in order to cover (or act as an insurance premium) against cancelled events.


The business model used by ticket service providers is quite different than that used by retail operations and the markup is considerably less. For example a retailer would buy a CD at E12 and sell it at E20 which is a markup of 66%. Depending on the ticket price (as the ticket price determines the booking fee) the markup for a ticket agent would be in the region of 10% to 20%. (Although this is probably higher for certain ticket agents.)


We used to have a handling charge per order and received numerous complaints about this. Now we've incorporated this cost into the booking fee. We also noticed that quite a large percentage of orders were just for one ticket so a charge per order wasn't very equitable. The biggest cost as an online ticket agent are card charges which are mainly a fixed percentage of the total charge. Consequently the only way we could introduce a fee per order would be by charging a percentage of the total cost - which is effectively a charge per ticket. Another way of looking at the issue, if you were to buy 2 CDs in a shop would you expect the shop only to charge a markup on one?

There are other reasons why the charge is per ticket which include the fact that deals are in place between promoters and ticket agents on a per ticket basis. Also, some ticket service providers operate what is known as a 'kickback' or payment to a promoter based on a predefined ticket sales target being reached.
For further information please see,
All You Need To Know About the Music Business: 6th Edition by Donald S. Passman
This Business of Music: The Definitive Guide to the Music Industry, Ninth Edition (Book only) by M. William Krasilovsky, Sidney Shemel, and John M. Gross
The Competition Authority report: http://www.tca.ie/controls/getimage.ashx?image_id=164

We were approached by band looking to do an exclusive ticket deal with us in return for a kickback of E1 per ticket - this is something we don't agree with and refused to do it. (The band were playing in a venue which has an agreement in place with another ticket service provider.)

We would like to see customers having choice as to where to buy their tickets and that ticket pricing becomes more transparent. This would make the market more competitive and be fairer to consumers in general.

John.

Gillo

Tickets.ie wrote: »

1. the card companies do not refund their fees (which can be up to 3% of the total price paid for the tickets);
2. the bank charges two fees, one for the original purchase and the second for the refund;
3. likewise the payment service provider charges two fees;
4. as a financial transaction is taking place VAT must be paid to Revenue;
5. the staff costs - it's quite labour intensive to refund the order and handle associated queries.

1/ That's unfortunate but the same for all retailers
2/ As above
3/ Surely the payment service provider is the same entity as either the card company or the bank,if they are charging you on the double, go after them and the the consumer
4/ Yes but if the transaction is been refunded, surely the VAT too would not be paid to the Revenue.
5/ Staff will have to be paid regardless of what sort of work they are doing, it's they same with any company, so that's a cop out and not an excuse.

At the end of the day, ticket master supplies a ticket for an event, as the seller if they fail to supply the event surely they are liable to give a full refund. It's the ticket sellers problem to go after the event organiser and recoup any loses which they incurred.

The exact same as if you buy a bed from a furniture shop and then then can't supply the bed.

Colonel Sanders

emmagean wrote: »

you could say the same about Ryanair charging a credit card fee of €6 per passenger per return journey, even though the same Credit Card is used for a booking

the fact its a flat fee is also a problem. tickets.ie say the bank can charge up to 3%, I once booked a flight to enland for 11.98 return and was charged a €6 credit card fee (over 50%). the last figures I saw (albeit about 6-9 months) showed average fares paid by ryanair passengers were about €42-45. If we assume this is just the fare element (the passenger has to pay taxes & charges on top) lets say we bring it up to an average payment of €70. Charging €3 per flight is about 4.29%.

Even if you apply baggage fares and maybe airport check in the payment must be €100 before the €3 charge becomes justifiable (and thats also assuming that ryanair are charged the full 3%, a business doing the volume they do surely wouldn't). Seeing as Ryanair are the self proclaimed 'low fares airline' I can't see their average fare + extras being €100.

ch750536

Ticket master dont sell you a ticket, they offer a service. Sure if you read the T's and C's it will say that they sell you nothing, they are merely (service) agents.

This means they have still offered you a service even if you get a refund for the ticket.

You didn't get a refund on the service because the service was still needed and used.

Gillo

Ok, so it's a service but surely they are still liable under the sale of goods and supply of services act, if they concert is cancelled then they are not suppling what you paid them for.

antoinolachtnai

Sure they are. They supplied you with the service of allowing you book your ticket.

tickets.ie: i don't understand what your issue with a kickback or 'incentive payment' is, especially if it is to the band rather than a promoter. Just curious.

Thundercracker

eth0_ wrote: »

...their policy of not refunding booking fees if an event is cancelled?........4 euro to print out a ticket and send it in the normal post, not even registered delivery, is pretty OTT....

I must confess I often wonder about this myself, I mean I recently bought a ticket to the Dropkick Murphys on Jan 31st from Ticketmaster and it charged me a booking fee of just over €4 which brings the cost up from €25 to €29

Now I happen to know for a fact through being a fan that a band like the Dropkick Murphys try and keep ticket prices cheap for the fans because they want to encourage everyone who can go to be able to go. Surely this is something that pisses off the band just as much as the fans, I would say that the band have long since got their cut, and Ticketmaster have already taken their share of the money....so is the booking fee to pay for their staff, their printing costs incl. all documents ever printed by Ticketmaster or is it just for the Christmas party!

Look at the recent cancellation of Meat Loaf, my booking fee was not refunded, and I had to cancel a B&B and could have spent money on a train ticket or bus ticket in advance, in fact, I was planning on doing that the day after the shows got cancelled

Tickets.ie

Thundercracker wrote: »

... a band like the Dropkick Murphys try and keep ticket prices cheap for the fans because they want to encourage everyone who can go to be able to go.

You could have saved yourself €3.50 - check the DKM website and newsletter for ticket information (http://www.dropkickmurphys.com/tour.html).

Sam Vimes

Tickets.ie wrote: »

S
Sometimes promoters cover the cost of the booking fees when a show is cancelled but most of the time they don't. Booking fees are non refundable because,
1. the card companies do not refund their fees (which can be up to 3% of the total price paid for the tickets);
2. the bank charges two fees, one for the original purchase and the second for the refund;
3. likewise the payment service provider charges two fees;
4. as a financial transaction is taking place VAT must be paid to Revenue;
5. the staff costs - it's quite labour intensive to refund the order and handle associated queries.

that's the same for every retailer in the country mate. if i return something to argos i don't expect to get back €4 less than i paid. i see no reason why i should accept it from ticketmaster

antoinolachtnai

Well, ticketmaster, to be fair to them aren't the retailer. They're an agent. If you have a problem with this, and I can see the problem, it's really with the promoter at least as much as with ticketmaster.

penexpers

Commander Vimes wrote: »

that's the same for every retailer in the country mate. if i return something to argos i don't expect to get back €4 less than i paid. i see no reason why i should accept it from ticketmaster

Indeed, so the retailers build the cost of accepting credit cards into their prices.

Gillo

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Sure they are. They supplied you with the service of allowing you book your ticket.

So now Dunnes Stores are supplieingthe service of selling me a tin of beans??

I did a quick search on Google and couldn't tind anything, but I'm curious has anyone tried taking Ticket master to coourt of this. I know it's only 4 euro, but considering the price of tickets over here, I'd jump at the chance to hit out at Ticket master.

Thundercracker

DropkickMurphys.com wrote: »

Please note we strongly recommend you buy tickets for our live shows from the venue box office or their suggested outlets below. These tickets will always have lower booking fees and charges than any on-line outlets and in some cases will not have booking fees added at all. This is the cheapest way to buy your tickets.

For **** sake, thats just a kick in the balls, along with everything else. Now I cant understand why the hell I paid that extra €3.50!

BrianD

Ticketmaster are a service agent. They are assisting you purchase a ticket from the promoter and in the event of it being cancelled assisting you with a refund. SO they are entitled to keep their money. You are only entering a service contract with them you are purchasing the ticket from the promoter.

In fairness to TM, they provide an excellent service. Having said that their fees are now ridiculously expensive and competition is urgently needed.

The Government put out this ridiculous consultation document and it appears that the Minister now wants an 'all in' price for tickets. He believes that people feel upset about these extra charges while in reality they didn't read the advert.

However, I believe that the 'all in' pricing will be bad for consumers. With the current system you can see how much everything costs if you care to look. There are certain items where that are fixed but others can be subject to competition. If we move to all in pricing, the highest price in the market will become the bench mark - almost like coffee shops in a busy area.

To assist competition, i think there should be some sort of industry move where venues/promoters make their shows available to a number of agents so there can be compeition between them. Perhaps this should apply to shows over a certain capacity?

gerryo

BrianD wrote: »

To assist competition, i think there should be some sort of industry move where venues/promoters make their shows available to a number of agents so there can be compeition between them.

Perhaps the Irish market is too small to support multiple agents - it does require significant outlay to maintain a call centre, advertising, etc.

I'm not making excuses for TM's activities btw, just think we are a small island, not too much room for nation wide multiple ticket agents.

If TM are offering a service & are entitled to keep their commission, then how come travel agents are obliged to offer a full refund if they cancel a package holiday??

Seems to me they are both providing a service, usually on behalf of a third party. OK, a package holiday is a significant outlay compared to a concert ticket, but it's the principle.

Seems like a win-win for TM, regardless of the outcome they don't lose out.
Ideally, there should be some sort of mandatory bond or insurance fund that TM can avail of to refund punters when concerts are cancelled.

Why should a punter lose out if an event is cancelled, hardly seems fair?
Seems just like betting tax, win or lose, the tax is due.

machiavellianme

gerryo wrote: »

Why should a punter lose out if an event is cancelled, hardly seems fair?
Seems just like betting tax, win or lose, the tax is due.

Its particularly annoying when an event gets cancelled due to poor ticket sales. Not only do they get out of making a loss on it, but they get to keep a portion of the money from the people who wanted to go. Any other business would kill for a get "Get out of Jail free" clause like Ticketmaster think they have. I wish people in Ireland would think about what they buy.

I've stopped going to gigs above €30 but it seems to make no difference. I even consider that price to be extortionate. It used to be that you could see a band here for the price of their current album <£10-15 no matter if they were Led Zeppelin or The Pixies but now its just ridiculous. Every "big" gig continues to sell out and the Ticketmaster monopoly thinks they can do as they please. Maybe it'll change, but only if people stop and think about how much a gig is actually worth and not about who else will be there or how "cool" you'll have been for being there or how much the memories are worth, because from retrospect, these phases always appear to pass and you'll be out of pocket.

gerryo

machiavellianme wrote: »

Its particularly annoying when an event gets cancelled due to poor ticket sales.

Hmm.. you got me thinking there!

Seems very like when an airline cancels a flight, you'd expect a full refund then, why not the same when a gig is cancelled?

Definitely time for a regulator to start looking into this & force the ticket sellers to refund 100% of the punters €.

eth0_

I'm GLAD to see concerts cancelled due to lack of sales. Take MIA in the marquee in Phoenix Park, not only was there NO WAY she would sell out a venue that size (she isn't high enough profile here), but they wanted 50 euro for the pleasure! Ian Brown is much bigger than her and his gig was 35!

alanceltic

Tickets.ie wrote: »

Booking fees are non refundable because,
1. the card companies do not refund their fees (which can be up to 3% of the total price paid for the tickets);
2. the bank charges two fees, one for the original purchase and the second for the refund;
3. likewise the payment service provider charges two fees;
4. as a financial transaction is taking place VAT must be paid to Revenue;
5. the staff costs - it's quite labour intensive to refund the order and handle associated queries.

Dont know exactly what your background is but I think you are Ill informed!!!!

1. the card company takes a % of the overall sale for processing the transaction, doesnt matter if the retailer is selling cakes, airline tickets or concert tickets. Companies with large turnover can and do squeeze under 1% commission fees.

2. the banks dont charge any fees for these transactions as it is an automated lodgement by the card company, most companies of ticketmasters scale will have an all in maintenance fee and if not these type of transactions (automated lodgements) would not attract additional fees

2,3&4 Again the card processing fees are paid on the NETT value of turnover, so if a refund if processed the fee is also reversed by default. IE if a retailer has a €200 sale and a €100 refund they pay a processing fee on €100, so all of the fees are refunded to the retailer!!!!!! Exact same applies to the VAT and besides VAT is not a cost for a retailer it is a tax to the customer...

5. It is costly to manage returns/refunds in ANY business and all other business models deal with it, it is a cost to the bottom line in profits not something that should be passed on to customers,,,,greed greed greed

The points you make are ridicilous and I would guess that a FULL refund is warranted under the current sale of goods/services legislation, how various aspects of the transaction are managed are immaterial to the customer an should be something the promoters/ticket agents should be expected to sort out between them.