What can we do?

Sleepy

It's an oft-commented on fact that the Irish are a great race for grumbling about the state of the nation whilst doing nothing to improve things. What I'd like to throw up for discussion is how we could go about making changes in this country.

Personally, I couldn't align myself to any of the existing political parties as I see them all as being full of the type of people who are great at spouting rhetoric and spin whilst lacking in any ability to project manage, organise, direct or lead.

We get a vote evey few years but that's of little use in a country where most people vote for local reasons rather than national policies.

Starting a political party requires money, influence or charisma beyond that of the ordinary individual.

So, what options are left for the ordinary person that wants to positively influence the country?

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

revolution?

brianthebard

Not vote for FF anymore, petition the government and all parties to put popular referendum back in the constitution?

jonny72

Its democracy... you're stuck with the ****ty bunch of a liars and spin merchants the unwashed masses voted for.. besides we're all too comfortable, lazy and apathetic to do anything about it.. we need a dictator.

DrumSteve

kill the faux rich,set their cats on fire and barbecue their housemaids.

that should change the country.

Sleepy

Has anyone got any serious suggestions?

Personally I'm stumped. All I can think of are assasination squads to put the fear of god into corrupt / inept politicians in the hope of them seeing sense and stepping aside for more competent candidates and that's not really an option outside the realm of V for Vendetta.

djpbarry

Sleepy wrote: »

We get a vote evey few years but that's of little use in a country where most people vote for local reasons rather than national policies.

I think the problem is most people either vote without putting much thought into it and then wait for the next election, or else they don't vote at all. Democracy should be much more than simply ticking a box, but to the majority of Irish people, that's all it is. Democracy only works if everyone (or at least the majority) participates. When I tell people that I write to my local TD's, they look at me like I have two heads.

brianthebard wrote: »

Not vote for FF anymore, petition the government and all parties to put popular referendum back in the constitution?

Might be a start.

jonny72 wrote: »

we're all too comfortable, lazy and apathetic to do anything about it

Agreed. Too many people have too much money to throw at their problems these days. For example, rather than lobbying the government to do something about our appalling health service, people just go out and buy health insurance. People are simply apathetic; they’re happy and that’s all that matters.

Sleepy wrote: »

All I can think of are assasination squads to put the fear of god into corrupt / inept politicians in the hope of them seeing sense and stepping aside for more competent candidates and that's not really an option outside the realm of V for Vendetta.

Cool film .

Sleepy

Sleepy wrote: »

Personally, I couldn't align myself to any of the existing political parties as I see them all as being full of the type of people who are great at spouting rhetoric and spin whilst lacking in any ability to project manage, organise, direct or lead.

Theres the problem.
Consider yourself the micro causing the macro.

Sleepy

And how does one go about being the solution Tristrame? Join a party different to one's own ideology in the hope of bringing the current members around to your way of thinking?

Let's look at the main parties:

Fianna Fail - no ideology to speak of and rotten to the core with corruption, dodgy dealings and ineptitude.
Fianna Gael - More honest than Fianna Fail but rather too conservative in their leanings for me at least
Labour - under the thumb of the unions, nuff said
Green Party - the party I've usually voted for, folded on virtually every front in order to jump into bed with Fianna Fail and completely ineffectual in government to date.
Sinn Fein - Far too much blood on their hands, large criminal connections, a one policy party that espouses a rather flawed version of socialism in order to win the votes of the disaffected, marginalised and uneducated.
PD's - A party started on a somewhat decent ideology ruined by poor leadership and destined to be the scapegoat for the downturn / state of the health service etc. I don't know if they could even be considered a 'major' party at this stage.

So, what's left? Found my own political party? I'd love to if I had the resources and / or talent at my disposal. Unfortunately, I don't have these things.

I get the feeling there's definitely room for a clean, socially liberal yet economically sensible party in Irish politics and that it would indeed get a large amount of backing from the younger generation. I'm not the man to lead it but if he (or she) does appear out of the woodwork, I'll throw my lot in behind them.

It's attitudes like yours that avoids changing things from the inside that I meant sleepy.
If enough people agree with you and all that.

If enough don't or are just too compacent/happy in their lot well thats just tough really.Thats democracy.

Mick86

Sleepy wrote: »

So, what options are left for the ordinary person that wants to positively influence the country?

Immigration

djpbarry

Mick86 wrote: »

Immigration

?!? Care to explain that little contribution?

karen3212

Sleepy wrote: »

It's an oft-commented on fact that the Irish are a great race for grumbling about the state of the nation whilst doing nothing to improve things. What I'd like to throw up for discussion is how we could go about making changes in this country.

Personally, I couldn't align myself to any of the existing political parties as I see them all as being full of the type of people who are great at spouting rhetoric and spin whilst lacking in any ability to project manage, organise, direct or lead.

We get a vote evey few years but that's of little use in a country where most people vote for local reasons rather than national policies.

Starting a political party requires money, influence or charisma beyond that of the ordinary individual.

So, what options are left for the ordinary person that wants to positively influence the country?

Honestly, if you don't think you'd be a persuasive politician, then I think if you want to do good, start by talking to the people in your area. If people are interested in what you want to change, set up a charity and work away from there.

tbh arrange your affairs so as that all the doe you'd pay in taxes go instead to you and your good work. That's the only suggestions I have for you.

Mick86

djpbarry wrote: »

?!? Care to explain that little contribution?

Pretty self explanatory. If you are that unhappy with the country move on to someplace else.

mikemac

Mick86 wrote: »

Pretty self explanatory. If you are that unhappy with the country move on to someplace else.

Ah, you mean emigration so

lostexpectation

sleepy DIY

djpbarry

karen3212 wrote: »

Honestly, if you don't think you'd be a persuasive politician, then I think if you want to do good, start by talking to the people in your area. If people are interested in what you want to change, set up a charity and work away from there.

Not a bad idea, Karen, but you will still encounter a tremendous amount of apathy unfortunately. Speaking from personal experience, it's very difficult to mobilise people in this country. People like the idea of getting involved in something ("Oh that sounds great! Let me know when you need me!"), but when it comes down to the nitty-gritty, they're not interested ("Oh, that's on this weekend? Sorry, forgot all about it.") :mad:

I don't mean to sound negative, just being realistic.

saibhne

Sleepy, It seems like you're looking for the magic bullet, there is none. You and every stakeholder in society needs to be both informed and involved in public life otherwise, as you have probably noted, democracy doesn't work as intended.

However, you do have a few exceptionally useful options at your disposal; freedom of speech, a mouth and the ability to move, go out and knock on doors, talk to people, see what they want, see if they agree with you or if you can persuade them that your ideas are worth considering or maybe you'll find they just couldn't give a monkeys one way or another.

You have written off every political party with one fairly general sweep in your OP. But political parties are shaped by and large by their members, by being a member you can influence policy decisions and shape the ideology of the party. Also membership allows you to meet and get to know the TDs and councillors that represent you at government level - this is crucial in allowing you to form an honest opinion about whether these people are actually the evil doers the media make them out to be. It also allows you to voice your concerns directly to them and learn about how the political system you rail against operates.

It is also possible to influence change outside of conventional politics. I see you're from Deansgrange, only recently in your constituency did we witness there a rare example of the public directly altering government (albeit local) decision making. I refer to the Dunlaoghaire baths - at the start of the issue it was a forgone conclusion that the Baths were to be demolished and an apartment block and landscaping development be put in it's place. This was not acceptable to many in Dun Laoghaire and by the actions of a few concerned citizens in conjunction with a small number of supporting politicians the issue grew legs. We saw two mass demonstrations publicised nationally and eventually under pressure the council decided and voted not to adopt the proposed development. Whether you agree with the outcome or not is irrelevant - point is if your intention is supported and you put the hard yards in you can make a difference.

As Gandhi said - you must be the change you want to see in the world.

Mick86

micmclo wrote: »

Ah, you mean emigration so

You're right.That is what I mean.

Sleepy

Tristrame wrote: »

It's attitudes like yours that avoids changing things from the inside that I meant sleepy.
If enough people agree with you and all that.

If enough don't or are just too compacent/happy in their lot well thats just tough really.Thats democracy.

Which Irish political party do you honestly think can be seriously changed from the inside?

Do you honestly think the country is being run in the best fashion it could be? I'm genuinely interested in how one prdinary person can make a difference and I'm not hearing much other than 'sure the pigs are happy rolling in their own ****e, leave them to it' in what you're saying.

Mick86 wrote: »

Immigration

I'm seriously considering emmigration at the moment. It's primarily for career reasons though the state of the nation is a contributing factor. I worry for the country however if every right-thinking individual's answer to the state of Irish politics is to emmigrate...

saibhne wrote: »

Sleepy, It seems like you're looking for the magic bullet, there is none. You and every stakeholder in society needs to be both informed and involved in public life otherwise, as you have probably noted, democracy doesn't work as intended.

However, you do have a few exceptionally useful options at your disposal; freedom of speech, a mouth and the ability to move, go out and knock on doors, talk to people, see what they want, see if they agree with you or if you can persuade them that your ideas are worth considering or maybe you'll find they just couldn't give a monkeys one way or another.

You have written off every political party with one fairly general sweep in your OP. But political parties are shaped by and large by their members, by being a member you can influence policy decisions and shape the ideology of the party. Also membership allows you to meet and get to know the TDs and councillors that represent you at government level - this is crucial in allowing you to form an honest opinion about whether these people are actually the evil doers the media make them out to be. It also allows you to voice your concerns directly to them and learn about how the political system you rail against operates.

It is also possible to influence change outside of conventional politics. I see you're from Deansgrange, only recently in your constituency did we witness there a rare example of the public directly altering government (albeit local) decision making. I refer to the Dunlaoghaire baths - at the start of the issue it was a forgone conclusion that the Baths were to be demolished and an apartment block and landscaping development be put in it's place. This was not acceptable to many in Dun Laoghaire and by the actions of a few concerned citizens in conjunction with a small number of supporting politicians the issue grew legs. We saw two mass demonstrations publicised nationally and eventually under pressure the council decided and voted not to adopt the proposed development. Whether you agree with the outcome or not is irrelevant - point is if your intention is supported and you put the hard yards in you can make a difference.

As Gandhi said - you must be the change you want to see in the world.

I'm trying to figure out how to be that change.

You make a very good point that every stakeholder in society needs to be informed. How can we achieve this? Our education system is woefully underfunded and it's curriculum unsuited to matters of state. There's a very cynical part of me that thinks this suits our politicians - it's far easier to sell spin to a populace that doesn't understand basic economics or the workings of a nation than one which is educated in these things.

One of the things I stated in my OP was that I can't see how one person can make a change without money, power or the charisma to sell their ideas to others. Not possessing any of these traits, I don't see how I can.

You say I've written off every political party. I'd contend they've written themselves off. They're at best misguided (or completely lacking direction) and at worst causing most of the problems our country faces.

I am genuinely looking for an outlet to try and make some positive changes and where I can see my input being useful I'm more than happy to give it e.g. I volunteer with Childline. I realise that I probably sound like a whining teenager in this thread but please just take that as a sign of frustration.

saibhne

I'm trying to figure out how to be that change.

I am genuinely looking for an outlet to try and make some positive changes and where I can see my input being useful I'm more than happy to give it e.g. I volunteer with Childline. [/QUOTE]

Well that's it in a nut shell - just give your input, Act. Stop blaming others (Political parties etc..) for the woes of society - in a democracy we are all responsible for the state of the nation it's not a "them and us scenario" it's just "us" at the end of the day so we must all strive firstly on an individual basis to do the best we can to make society something we can live with.

Not everyone does this but if you have identified the problem then you have no option than to confront it in real terms or else let it grate away at you. I was once very anti-political, thinking much like your self that the party system we enjoy is corrupt and ineffective - and it is, but I came to the conclusion that it's the only system we have. You have to play the game your way or let the game play you.

My frustration like yours boiled over and I eventually joined a political party to see if there was anything that could be done from the inside, to my surprise I found it very satisfying and feel I have since been directly part of a few small victories for my conscience. You don't need charisma or money, god knows I lack plenty of each but if you have an honest desire to effect positive change, energy to dedicate to it and a lot of patience then you have all you need.

Sleepy do what you can - that's all you can do.

brianthebard

Sleepy wrote: »

Has anyone got any serious suggestions?

Mine was a serious suggestion. The first Irish constitution (1922) included popular referendum. afaik it was never used and was taken out by Dev because he didn't think that the Irish people were mature enough to handle such responsibility. I believe that bringing back popular referendum would give the general populace a greater say in government-if a certain percentage of people sign a petition on something, then the issue is put to a vote.

Like the Swiss model?

I'd be concerned at how us Irish might use that-it might mean temporarally unpopular measures might never be taken.
We being in my experience anyway fairly selfish.

brianthebard

Yeah like the swiss. I agree that if you let it be used for every little thing it could become a burden, but by setting the petition figure reasonably high (say 10 or 15% of voting population) and making stipulations that it could only be used in certain scenarios (I'll leave people to debate what they should be) then I think it could work well.

nesf

brianthebard wrote: »

Yeah like the swiss. I agree that if you let it be used for every little thing it could become a burden, but by setting the petition figure reasonably high (say 10 or 15% of voting population) and making stipulations that it could only be used in certain scenarios (I'll leave people to debate what they should be) then I think it could work well.

So you'd give Joe Duffy the power to call referendums at will?

Nevyn

nesf wrote: »

So you'd give Joe Duffy the power to call referendums at will?

Nevermind Joe duffy the Christian right wing organizations would jump at it and have different sign up sheet at the back of every small church across the country every month.

brianthebard

Glad to see you two and look past the potential pitfalls and find ways of addressing issu....no wait your just complaining and not offering any answers.

(Apart from here) The reason you don't get too many answers sometimes is that people aren't suffeciently as concerned about what concerns you as you are.

Personally, though I like travelling,I've been to maybe 30 countries at this stage,I haven't found one better than Ireland yet despite the fact that it has some faults (and I'm including Oz in that).

Part of the logjam in certain areas where theres room for improvement is actually a result of people complaining.
10 years ago it took me an hour and a half to get to Dublin though I live 45 miles away...Now I can do it in 40 minutes off peak.
I like that.I'd like an electric non stop rail service too but I realise we're a small country and lots of wants are unrealistic.

djpbarry

Tristrame wrote: »

I like travelling,I've been to maybe 30 countries at this stage,I haven't found one better than Ireland yet despite the fact that it has some faults

How many of that 30 were in the developed world?

Seriously, I find that hard to believe. Define "better".

Tristrame wrote: »

I'd like an electric non stop rail service too but I realise we're a small country and lots of wants are unrealistic.

For me, you have summed up a major problem in the Irish psyche with this statement; too many people are prepared to accept substandard services. An electric rail service 45 miles outside Dublin should not be considered unrealistic.

djpbarry

djpbarry wrote: »

How many of that 30 were in the developed world?

Most actually.Have you been up North lately? Infrastructurally the place is a mess and I see more pot hole roads in america than I do here.We get more holidays and time off work and better social welfare.
Things are dearer here but we have a higher min wage and we demand often higher salaries.We're also more selfish than most.
If eejits are willing to pay one fifty for a cup of tea then by God us Irish will charge it and Two fifty if we thought we'd get away with it...

For me, you have summed up a major problem in the Irish psyche with this statement; too many people are prepared to accept substandard services. An electric rail service 45 miles outside Dublin should not be considered unrealistic.

Even I realise that the billions needed for infrastructure should be spent in the major centres first and that we've only started having the resources to spend in the last decade unlike other countries.
Catch up takes a long time,it's unrealistic to expect everything now.
Electric rail down here?
Maybe,maybe someday.

nesf

brianthebard wrote: »

no wait your just complaining and not offering any answers.

There's no perfect answer. No matter what route you pick you get problems. We're a really small country, this brings both problems and advantages over bigger countries where there is far more distance between the man on the street and the people running the country. I'd personally like to see more power being given to local government but the thing is, I'm not sure we're big enough population wise for this to work very well, i.e. would the added bureaucracy just sap more public funds away from useful projects?

lostexpectation

karen3212 wrote: »

Honestly, if you don't think you'd be a persuasive politician, then I think if you want to do good, start by talking to the people in your area. If people are interested in what you want to change, set up a charity and work away from there.

tbh arrange your affairs so as that all the doe you'd pay in taxes go instead to you and your good work. That's the only suggestions I have for you.

don't set up a charity, or maybe karen meant an ngo, set up ro join a community group, set something up to sort any probs or improve the life of people in your area,your peers, with your community.

djpbarry

Tristrame wrote: »

If eejits are willing to pay one fifty for a cup of tea then by God us Irish will charge it and Two fifty if we thought we'd get away with it...

I'm not going to dispute that - I couldn't agree more in fact. As you say, the reason the cost of living is so high in this country is because people have far too much money to throw around.

Tristrame wrote: »

Even I realise that the billions needed for infrastructure should be spent in the major centres first and that we've only started having the resources to spend in the last decade unlike other countries.

But it's not being spent in the major centres, it's being spent in the major centre, i.e. Dublin. What worries me is that it is not being spent wisely and the funds will dry up (to some degree) eventually. In fact, that point has already been reached. I'm not even going to get started on the actual project management...

Tristrame wrote: »

Catch up takes a long time,it's unrealistic to expect everything now.

Catch up should not take that long - we are only a small country after all. Infrastructural projects in this country take an inordinate length of time to complete compared to other countries. For example, the Øresund Bridge between Sweden and Denmark was completed in 4 years. Compare that to the farcical situation that presently exists in relation to the M50 in Dublin - 22 years on and it's still not finished.

nesf

djpbarry wrote: »

But it's not being spent in the major centres, it's being spent in the major centre, i.e. Dublin.

In fairness, the infrastructure has improved outside of Dublin. A very large chuck of the funds are spent in Dublin but then, a stupidly large proportion of the population live/work there.

djpbarry

nesf wrote: »

In fairness, the infrastructure has improved outside of Dublin.

I'm not saying it hasn't improved, what I'm saying is most of the big infrastructural spending is spent in and around Dublin and that has to change.

nesf wrote: »

A very large chuck of the funds are spent in Dublin but then, a stupidly large proportion of the population live/work there.

But if more money was invested in the likes of Cork and Galway then the population would not be so heavily skewed towards the East coast.

Ah Cork has a super dooper road structure,the lynch tunnell,the Kinsale fly over,a superb ring road,a branty new airport terminal and lots lots more.Thats tonnes of investment
They don't have a Dart or a Luas but not many centres with circa 200,000 people in their catchment area do.Theres a super dual carriage way from Limerick almost to the Galway border.

I agree regarding the inordinate length of time it takes to get projects going.
Sometimes,I'd just like to go into the offices where these things are organised and see what pen pushing goes on...

nesf

djpbarry wrote: »

But if more money was invested in the likes of Cork and Galway then the population would not be so heavily skewed towards the East coast.

Perhaps but it's hard to justify not fixing the current issues on the east coast tbh.

Sleepy

saibhne wrote: »

Well that's it in a nut shell - just give your input, Act. Stop blaming others (Political parties etc..) for the woes of society - in a democracy we are all responsible for the state of the nation it's not a "them and us scenario" it's just "us" at the end of the day so we must all strive firstly on an individual basis to do the best we can to make society something we can live with.

Not everyone does this but if you have identified the problem then you have no option than to confront it in real terms or else let it grate away at you. I was once very anti-political, thinking much like your self that the party system we enjoy is corrupt and ineffective - and it is, but I came to the conclusion that it's the only system we have. You have to play the game your way or let the game play you.

My frustration like yours boiled over and I eventually joined a political party to see if there was anything that could be done from the inside, to my surprise I found it very satisfying and feel I have since been directly part of a few small victories for my conscience. You don't need charisma or money, god knows I lack plenty of each but if you have an honest desire to effect positive change, energy to dedicate to it and a lot of patience then you have all you need.

Sleepy do what you can - that's all you can do.

If there was a political party I identified with, I'd join it. Unfortunately for me, such a party doesn't exist.

I think the most frustrating part of our situation is that most of the steps to a working democracy are blatantly obvious - reduced no's of TD's etc.

nesf

Sleepy wrote: »

If there was a political party I identified with, I'd join it. Unfortunately for me, such a party doesn't exist.

It's rare that people can identify completely with a party. Normally you have to compromise on it.

SeanW

The first thing, for sure - is to never cast a vote for the PDs again. Whatever libertarian good government credentials they may have had in the past, today, they're nothing more than a neo-con, authoritarian-right version of FF. They were the only party contesting my constituency not to get a mention on my ballot paper this election just gone.

The second thing you could do would be to join and campaign for the party you identified the most with. In my case, were I so inclined, that would be Fine Gael, but I'd never vote for them in the Euro elections because they're part of the right wing European Peoples Party.

Sleepy

nesf wrote: »

It's rare that people can identify completely with a party. Normally you have to compromise on it.

While I understand that, I just can't see the point in joining an organisation I'd agree with on maybe half their manifesto without a realistic chance of convincing the rest of the party where they were going wrong.

nesf

Sleepy wrote: »

While I understand that, I just can't see the point in joining an organisation I'd agree with on maybe half their manifesto without a realistic chance of convincing the rest of the party where they were going wrong.

Politics is all about trade-offs. You never get exactly what you want, even if you're heading the party. All you can do is look at your local candidates and weigh them according to a balance between their positions, the party's positions and what you view to be important local and national issues. Assuming you're not willing/planning on running yourself.

Sleepy

I suppose that's the crux of it nesf, there are some things I'm not prepared to trade e.g. I'm not prepared to be involved with a party that tolerates corruption / terrorism, is funded by unions or property developers etc.


And of the remaining parties, I can't see any of them supporting the issues that would be most important to me i.e. restructuring of our political system to minimize/eradicate the 'parish pump' nonsense, actively pursuing a secular state, facing down the public sector unions to allow the necessary changes in our state services etc.

Jackie laughlin

It must be a wonderful feeling to think that no political party is good enough or has an absolute match for one's political views. Anyone could take up this essentially cynical position.

Speaking of which, let's return to the "Cyincs Guide to Political Parties" outlined above and offer a different and honest perspective:

FF: This sees itself as not so much a party and more a national movement. It has been mildly leftist in the past on industrial policy but has been consistently neo-liberal in recent decades. It has strong links to some business sectors and a very poor record on corruption. It has a record of conservatism on social issues. It enjoys more support than any other party in every single social category including trade unionists.

FG: This party has an honourable tradition of constitutionalism. It was for many decades conservative in both economic and social policy. More recently it has become more progressive. It is however more liberal than socialist.

Lab: This is a party founded to be the political wing of the unions in the early 20th century. It has become a mainstream social democratic party, favouring a mixed economy and liberal social policy. Many of its members are socialists.

PDs: This was founded to be a liberal party. It is liberal in both economic and social policy. It believes in competition and privatisation as remedies for most problems.

Greens: This is a relatively young party which sees the environment as the primary concern of policy. It is finding it difficult in government to maintain a separate identity.

SF: This is a party struggling to put its violent past behind it and to create an identity as a completely constitutional party. It is not yet clear what form of nationalism it will adopt. It organises on working class estates and often adopts socialist positions.


There's an abundance of choice there for anyone. However, if one is a cynic, a perpetual moan, or incapable of making common cause with people of broadly similar views, then nothing will ever do. Such a person might found a new party and then resign at the first sign of disagreement.

CerebralCortex

Mick86 wrote: »

Pretty self explanatory. If you are that unhappy with the country move on to someplace else.

I hate when people say that because its not really a solution. I sure there'd be a lot of moving about if it were the only solution.

Sleepy

Jackie laughlin wrote: »

It must be a wonderful feeling to think that no political party is good enough or has an absolute match for one's political views. Anyone could take up this essentially cynical position.

Speaking of which, let's return to the "Cyincs Guide to Political Parties" outlined above and offer a different and honest perspective:

FF: This sees itself as not so much a party and more a national movement. It has been mildly leftist in the past on industrial policy but has been consistently neo-liberal in recent decades. It has strong links to some business sectors and a very poor record on corruption. It has a record of conservatism on social issues. It enjoys more support than any other party in every single social category including trade unionists.

FG: This party has an honourable tradition of constitutionalism. It was for many decades conservative in both economic and social policy. More recently it has become more progressive. It is however more liberal than socialist.

Lab: This is a party founded to be the political wing of the unions in the early 20th century. It has become a mainstream social democratic party, favouring a mixed economy and liberal social policy. Many of its members are socialists.

PDs: This was founded to be a liberal party. It is liberal in both economic and social policy. It believes in competition and privatisation as remedies for most problems.

Greens: This is a relatively young party which sees the environment as the primary concern of policy. It is finding it difficult in government to maintain a separate identity.

SF: This is a party struggling to put its violent past behind it and to create an identity as a completely constitutional party. It is not yet clear what form of nationalism it will adopt. It organises on working class estates and often adopts socialist positions.


There's an abundance of choice there for anyone. However, if one is a cynic, a perpetual moan, or incapable of making common cause with people of broadly similar views, then nothing will ever do. Such a person might found a new party and then resign at the first sign of disagreement.

That's an incredibly sanctimonious post Jackie Laughlin and one that seems more designed to take a swing at me than contribute anything to the conversation.

An abundance of choice? At first glance when compared to the US or the UK this might seem the case, though in our oligarchical system is it really any more worthwhile to vote for the minor parties than it is to vote Nader in the US?

I don't consider a refusal to deal with the corrupt, the inept or the criminal being incapable of making common cause with people of broadly similar views. I consider it having a moral conscience.

Does it sound like I think it's a wonderful feeling?

How could anyone fail to be cynical about Irish politics?

DadaKopf

I think jackielaughlin's post is fairly accurate. I might be a bit more critical of the Labour description. In the Irish party system, it does tend to function as a party that regulates (and therefore apologises for) present neoliberalism. That said, as a Labour supporter, it best matches my convictions in terms of what's out there, and the Labour Party Conference had the sense of renewed purpose about the historical, present and future role of a 'democratic socialist' party. It's a campaigning party. Incidentally, Labour is the oldest party in the country.

growler

Sleepy wrote: »

That's an incredibly sanctimonious post Jackie Laughlin and one that seems more designed to take a swing at me than contribute anything to the conversation.

An abundance of choice? ?

I agree its hard not to be cynical about irish politics but the amount of political party choices available to you is clear, there *should* be one that most closely matches your personal politics, if there was less choice you would , more than likely, find it even harder to find a party to align yourself with.

Ultimately, its easier to change something from within than without, there will always be differences of opinion, working through those disagreements to reach a consensus / compromise underpins democracy, if you are so unwilling to adapt or compromise then only dictatorship remains an option for you.

Like yourself the hypocrisy, corruption and blatant mismangement of the country really pish me off, however on my return to ireland next year I intend to join a party to attempt to influence its direction, if enough people did the same change would come (for better or for worse).

Jackie laughlin

Sleepy,
I have just used the word "sanctimonious" in another thread to describe the kind of person who wants to maintain their political virginity until the perfect suitor worthy of their support comes along. I certainly did react strongly to your dismissal of the entire party system. It was misinformed and utterly cynical.

As a socialist it is a strange feeling for me to be defending political opponents. However, I guess reason and democracy come before particular political perspectives. Apart from a tiny number of FG people, political corruption is confined to FF. Even within FF it is not at a level comparible with most of the world. In short politics in Ireland is comparively honest. (I'm taking the conventional line on corruption here: that a favour has to be linked to a payment. I treat business contributions to parties and politicians as an anti democratic exercise of power intended to create an economy in which a particular fraction of capital can flourish.) The Irish ruling elite is certainly not inept. It has presided over the accumulation of enormous riches, opened up glaring inequalities, and delivered gross salaries and extras to a layer of well-suited, self-serving spongers. This is the outcome of neo-liberal policies. The broad support for these policies is reflected at Boards.ie.

In short, there is no need for the high minded to become involved with the corrupt, criminal or inept. In Ireland that kind of company would have to be sought out. Politics is social morality. Pretending that no one is pure enough to warrant support is bourgeois indifference and certainly not a moral standpoint.

edanto

In fairness, while I empathise with your frustration Sleepy, I have to point out that you're part of the political system here, with your vote and all. So if you want to change it, get involved.

Hell, even if you temporarily aligned yourself with one political party to support one local cause or something - the only remedy for your frustration is for you to take action.

It's bitter, but it's true. And I suspect that you know it.

Sleepy

It's just not enough edanto. If my only option is to join a party that supports a ton of things I don't like in order to maybe get one thing I do like passed that's a pretty poor return.