The fuel cell is the future

probe

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/main.jhtml?xml=/motoring/2007/11/10/mffuel10.xml

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BendiBus

Where will the hydrogen come from for this Honda? I mean that in 2 ways. How will it be produced? And where will it be available?

Without sounding cynical (OK maybe a little), hydrogen fuelled production vehicles are always about 3 years away according so one manufacturer or other. I think the fuel cell has a future, but I think it may take a lot longer.

I'm reading for the second time (I read it too soon & too fast last time!) "The Hype about Hydrogen" by Joseph J. Romm. I'm finding it quite convincing. The book is 2 or 3 years old at this stage so if there have been any significant advances since then (rather than more concepts) I'm very interested in hearing about them.

http://www.cool-companies.org/hydrogen/introduction.cfm

probe

BendiBus wrote: »

Where will the hydrogen come from for this Honda? I mean that in 2 ways. How will it be produced? And where will it be available?

The hydrogen cars that are on the market at present (e.g. BMW Hydrogen 7) are only available in markets where there are a few hydrogen dispensing filling stations in situ (even though the BMW 7 can also run on gasoline). There are almost 200 H2 filling stations in California – as a result of initiatives by their Austrian born Governor. Every country should have a program in place to ensure that there is at least one hydrogen equipped filling station say every 100 km (and obviously more dense distribution in large urban areas). Only by doing so will the manufacturers make the cars available in their jurisdictions. The Scandinavian countries are setting up a network of H2 stations.

The production of hydrogen is relatively simple compared with making and refining petroleum, which probably takes millions of years – e.g.
Electrolysis from water (requires lots of green electricity) can be done on-site at a filling station.

It can also be made from hydrocarbons – which defeats the objective – except perhaps for experimentation and start-ups.

There are lots of chemical plants that vent hydrogen to the air because they have no use for it. The Danish government is organising a system to use this otherwise wasted hydrogen for public transport applications. In most other countries it is wastefully vented off into the air like steam.

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There is a summary of H2 production methods in the Wikip at : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_production

http://www.hydrogennow.org/HNews/PressReleases/NorskHydro/ScandanavianPartnership.htm

http://www.fuelcellpartnership.org/fuel-vehl_map.html

http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/hydrogen-fuel-stations-is-this-really-the-fuel-of-the-future-972951.html

Taildragon

Probe

This sounds interesting. As for the fuel distribution network (particularly filling stations) it doesn't appear to be all that different in principle to the LPG facilities that have been around for 30+ years

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Taildragon wrote: »

Probe

This sounds interesting. As for the fuel distribution network (particularly filling stations) it doesn't appear to be all that different in principle to the LPG facilities that have been around for 30+ years

Or Ethanol/bio diesel - there were few stations selling this a few years ago - now there is reasonable coverage. H2 is a far cleaner solution compared with plant fuels - and does not compete with food production resources.

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Lennoxschips

There's a lot of misunderstanding about what a hydrogen fuel cell car is.

It's not a car powered by hydrogen, the hydrogen fuel cells are simply a means to store energy, a battery if you ill. (Although it's not a battery of course, but bear with me.)

The energy to produce the hydrogen to store in the fuel cell still has to come from somewhere.

Obviously, like in the example above, if factories are creating hydrogen and venting it into the air we should harness that instead of letting it go to waste.

BendiBus

probe wrote: »

Electrolysis from water (requires lots of green electricity) can be done on-site at a filling station.

It can also be made from hydrocarbons – which defeats the objective – except perhaps for experimentation and start-ups.

I haven't read your links yet but my reading to date suggests that any green electricity produced is far better spent supplying the grid than generating hydrogen. Also, my understanding is that reforming hydrogen from hydrocarbons is the only method that's even close to being commercially viable. Electrolysis is only used for producing small (non-industrial) quantities of extremely pure hydrogen, and it's not very energy efficient.

Capt'n Midnight

hydrogen fuel cells aren't the future for transport

methanol fuel cells or others using liquids or even solids could very well be

BendiBus

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

hydrogen fuel cells aren't the future for transport

methanol fuel cells or others using liquids or even solids could very well be

The problem with methanol (apart from being highly toxic & corrosive) is that it also needs to be produced from raw materials. And again it's biomass or natural gas. Biomass displaces food production and using natural gas offers no CO2 benefits.

Whatever the concept regarding fuel cells, the big problem is that there are always 2 problems! Developing the fuel cell itself and developing the energy source/store. Neither of these has been solved to any practical level. That's the main reason for my scepticism on fuel cells in the short to medium term.

Capt'n Midnight

My argument for a fuel cell running on a liquid is that it would extract twice as much energy from the fuel as an internal combustion engine would. so it doesn't matter which exact fuel is used , could be fossil fuel could be made from producer gas from water and waste could be biomass, the point being a saving of 50% means 50% less CO2 etc.

you can make methanol from water + cabon dioxide if you had plenty of energy