Crafting a response

Hivemind187

Incensed by yesterdays run in the Il Duffy I have decided to craft a response to the chubby-radio-warrior. A measured response based on a transcript of his show (the main points anyway, there is a lot) and using science to refute the non-sensical claims that were made. Science, Lovely lovely science!

Can anyone get the following for me;

The exact tensile strength of the side of a coke can (I think it is 0.4mm aluminium but dont quote me) and whether the convex curvature of its surface would increase or decrease its resistance to an impact. An equation would be nice.

The exact pressure required to penetrate the first pane of glass on vacume double glazing (standard stuff) as well as inert gas double glazing and a single pane of standard window glass. I realise that the closer these gets to the corners of the pane the higher their resistance to impact will be, if any physicists out there have a formula etc for this it would be great.

Any one got any veteranary knowledge or know where to look? I want to find out how much stronger or weaker the skin on the average household dogs/cat is when compared to human skin. This is a bit of a joke really since the animals hair would have provided a resistance similar in action to boiled leather due to the multiple fibres and layers but I would still like to be able to show a comparrisson of what kind of energy would be required to penetrate the skin and stick.

Does anyone know where I could find a set of statisitics on the number of gun crimes perpetrated in Ireland in the last two years? It would be interesting to see what kind of growth has been had and how many of them can be discounted as irrelevant to airsoft (i.e. no shots discharged).

Also, I want to get a broad idea of the numbers of people involved in the sport based on the internet traffic experienced by HRTA, Boards, Airsofteire and Eirsoft as well as the attendence numbers (no names, just how many turned up to each game) at HRTA, Drogheda and G-Tac.

Armed with something like this plus the white paper that is being drafted we will have a complete response to the kinds of rubbish we have to deal with removing all arguments other than the "its how they look, they are so intimidating" which we feels we can counter easily enough.

Any and all helps is greatly appreciated.

Fallschirmjager

some of the crime figures are at the cso

http://www.cso.ie/statistics/CrimeandJustice.htm


i will check if i can find some direct figures today if i get a spare minute


edit:

http://www.cso.ie/statistics/burglaries.htm

this clearly shows armed robberies has dramatically increased prior to airsoft being legalised.


on glass i found this...but you will need someone with the physics knowledge this to truly understand it

http://www.dupont.com/safetyglass/en/science/calculator/index.html#

Hivemind187

Fallschirmjager wrote: »

some of the crime figures are at the cso

http://www.cso.ie/statistics/CrimeandJustice.htm


i will check if i can find some direct figures today if i get a spare minute

Brilliant thanks man.

zero19

Section 3 part B on tensile strength, obviously can't confirm this myself and not sure if it's suitable but have a look... http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:qrJeg5_PsTsJ:www.howmet.com/alcoahomes/objects/Docs/Three-PartSpecs/AlcoaAluminumSidingSoffit.doc+Tensile+strength+of+0.4mm+aluminium&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=9

kdouglas

Hivemind187 wrote: »

Any one got any veteranary knowledge or know where to look? I want to find out how much stronger or weaker the skin on the average household dogs/cat is when compared to human skin. This is a bit of a joke really since the animals hair would have provided a resistance similar in action to boiled leather due to the multiple fibres and layers but I would still like to be able to show a comparrisson of what kind of energy would be required to penetrate the skin and stick.

would the bbs/pellets or whatever shot at the cat/dog and while not actually penetrating the skin, merely got stuck in the fur? then over a few days/weeks, the fur gets dirty and bb gets very well lodged in? owner then notices these while washing said dirty pet, panics and think they're stuck in the skin and brings them to the vet?

Hivemind187

kdouglas wrote: »

would the bbs/pellets or whatever shot at the cat/dog and while not actually penetrating the skin, merely got stuck in the fur? then over a few days/weeks, the fur gets dirty and bb gets very well lodged in? owner then notices these while washing said dirty pet, panics and think they're stuck in the skin and brings them to the vet?

Its possible but from experience with animals the oils in the hairs, as well as the generally flat layout of the hairs will result in the BB bouncing off the surface unless the poor creature is especially sticky, mucky or curly haired (in which case daily brushing should be the regieme and stuck bb's would be the least of your worries).

Masada

and also the vet had said that he removed bbs from the skin and that they had penetrated., very hard to believe.,

extremetaz

kdouglas wrote: »

would the bbs/pellets or whatever shot at the cat/dog and while not actually penetrating the skin, merely got stuck in the fur? then over a few days/weeks, the fur gets dirty and bb gets very well lodged in? owner then notices these while washing said dirty pet, panics and think they're stuck in the skin and brings them to the vet?

that was my initial thought too - but i'm inclined to say that the fur would have to be massively matted for the pellet to stick in there.

there is however no chance in hell that any airsoft round ever penetrated the skin of any animal - let alone actually lodged in place.

that "vet" was either talking rubbish or was digging out something other than airsoft rounds.

Dave!

Indeed.

It either (a) was from an airgun, or (b) was from an airsoft gun firing greater than 1J.

Even if it was from a <1J gun, it's not particularly relevent, because they shouldn't be used to shoot at animals no more than they should be used to shoot at unwilling humans!

I'm sure this falls under some sort of cruelty to animals law and the perp could be prosecuted.

The other questions in the OP could be useful, but it's not worth dwelling on this animal-shooting incident.

Hivemind187

Quite right, the animal thing is a minor point and utter nonsense but its included simply because it has come up before with the indymedia debacle - plus it is incredibly easy to debunk!

Hivemind187

Folks, can we try to stay on topic. This is gong to be used for serious discussions.

kdouglas

Hive: i've deleted the off-topic nonsense above your post to keep the thread clean

Hivemind187

kdouglas wrote: »

Hive: i've deleted the off-topic nonsense above your post to keep the thread clean

Thanks, appreciate it.

Fallschirmjager

hive, i search for a while now i cant find much on the properties and tensile strength of a coke can...

there is one university that did tests on it but from my reading its not relevant.

if you want it i will hunt it out again.



if you need any more dude, let me know...

projectmayhem

good luck with the response lads. didn't hear yesterdays show but i believe it was a bit ridiculous and an uneducated attack on airsoft in general, in very typical joe duffy "biddy doesn't like the sound of this" style.

CrazyRabbit

Point to note: It is possible that Mr Duffy and the liveline team are reading this forum and this thread. Therefore, I propose we leave out aggressive/insulting comments like "chubby-radio-warrior". I'm not having a go at you Hivemind, I just don't think it's in our best interest to piss off a radio show host who can push possible future discussions in the favour of the anti-airsoft camp.

Hivemind187

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

Point to note: It is possible that Mr Duffy and the liveline team are reading this forum and this thread. Therefore, I propose we leave out aggressive/insulting comments like "chubby-radio-warrior". I'm not having a go at you Hivemind, I just don't think it's in our best interest to piss off a radio show host who can push possible future discussions in the favour of the anti-airsoft camp.

Picking on me again are ya'? We'll I'll have you to

Anyway, it's a lot nicer than some of the comments that been made. Retracted anyway.

CrazyRabbit

Hivemind187 wrote: »

Picking on me again are ya'? We'll I'll have you to

Anyway, it's a lot nicer than some of the comments that been made. Retracted anyway.

Yeah, the main thread about the Joe Duffy show was a bit worrying when I read the comments.

EDIT: Jasus, sorry I've derailed the topic by accident!

Hivemind187

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

Yeah, the main thread about the Joe Duffy show was a bit worrying when I read the comments.

A few mildly irritated comments can be expected when nerves are frayed and tempers are flared, however this is totally off topic - returning to the subject please.

iceage

Can anyone get the following for me;

The exact tensile strength of the side of a coke can (I think it is 0.4mm aluminium but dont quote me) and whether the convex curvature of its surface would increase or decrease its resistance to an impact. An equation would be nice.

The exact pressure required to penetrate the first pane of glass on vacume double glazing (standard stuff) as well as inert gas double glazing and a single pane of standard window glass. I realise that the closer these gets to the corners of the pane the higher their resistance to impact will be, if any physicists out there have a formula etc for this it would be great.

Any one got any veteranary knowledge or know where to look? I want to find out how much stronger or weaker the skin on the average household dogs/cat is when compared to human skin. This is a bit of a joke really since the animals hair would have provided a resistance similar in action to boiled leather due to the multiple fibres and layers but I would still like to be able to show a comparrisson of what kind of energy would be required to penetrate the skin and stick.

If your gonna get into a "discussion" with the likes of Mr Duffy, and start by baffling him with science you are going to add fuel to the already glowing fire, by rubbing them up the wrong way dude, Why not just invite him, and any other interested parties to a HRTA session and let them have a go. You never know they might enjoy it!!!

Hivemind187

Its not a discussion. Its a response.

Its not intended to argue, its intended to end arguments by giving the answers.

Gatling

the exact strenght of a can isnt easy to find as technicly there is 2 based on pressurised and non pressurised,found this link that has a few strenghts of various objects.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tensile_strength

kdouglas

i dont think tensile strength is quite what your looking for:

Wikipedia wrote:

Tensile strength σUTS, or SU measures the force required to pull something such as rope, wire, or a structural beam to the point where it breaks.

Hivemind187

kdouglas wrote: »

i dont think tensile strength is quite what your looking for:

My ignorance of all things mechanical or metalurgical shows again lol.

Thanks KD, what is the thing I am looking for? Puncture strength?

kdouglas

not sure to be honest, ill post on the engineering forum and see if anyone over there knows where one might find such information

Gatling

http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/6505499-description.html

ballistic resistance is what im currently searching

Hivemind187

Gatling wrote: »

http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/6505499-description.html

ballistic resistance is what im currently searching

would they concern themselves with such triffling energies though?

Boston

With regard to aluminum Tensile Strength is relevant, however toughness if the technical term you're looking for, as that is the strain a material can endure to the point of Fracture. Ive found vales of 36Mpa but what that relates to in terms of energy Ive no idea, Ill drop an expert in the area an email, he may or may not get back to me.

With regards traffic states for HRTA.ie Ill look into it.

iceage

does the I.A.A. have anybody like a T.D. or a professional lawyer/ ranking member of the community to fight our corner? Has the I.A.A. approuched anybody with some social clout or is there anybody whos into Airsoft related to a Senator:cool:!!! Seriously I'm just curious as to the avenues that have been investigated by the I.A.A.? Is it a case of contacting the Sports Council of Ireland or something similar to give this sport a chance to become recognised.

iceage

iceage wrote: »

does the I.A.A. have anybody like a T.D. or a professional lawyer/ ranking member of the community to fight our corner? Has the I.A.A. approuched anybody with some social clout or is there anybody whos into Airsoft related to a Senator:cool:!!! Seriously I'm just curious as to the avenues that have been investigated by the I.A.A.? Is it a case of contacting the Sports Council of Ireland or something similar to give this sport a chance to become recognised.

Who is the Minister for Sport at the minute? his name escapes me, and again has the I.A.A. been in contact with him or his deparment yet? It seems all this chat about the sport going forward, and the like of AGM'S taking place is a bit pointless if we get to the stage of approching the people to recieve the response "I.A.A. WHO??, never heard of em!!!

Hivemind187

iceage wrote: »

Who is the Minister for Sport at the minute? his name escapes me, and again has the I.A.A. been in contact with him or his deparment yet? It seems all this chat about the sport going forward, and the like of AGM'S taking place is a bit pointless if we get to the stage of approching the people to recieve the response "I.A.A. WHO??, never heard of em!!!

Calm down a little. They are aware of our existance, its not as if they dont have people reading this forum.

We cannot approach anyone without having a fully ratified constitution, properly elected members etc because we wouldnt actually be representing anyone.

We will be contacting a number of TD's etc and we are making the necessary preparations for that eventuallity including a white-paper report on Airsoft since the 2006 CJB and the proposals for changes to the legislation regarding airsoft.

The AGM is important because it will allow all of the ground work to be completed and put us in a position to go forward as an entity recognised by players and businesses.

This is off topic though. Kindly start another thread or PM for answers.

H.O.T.A.S.

This may be of some use to you, Here It's an article about BB rounds

ScumLord

Ummmm.. I don't know lads I think ye need to relax a bit this is taking things to a ridiculous level. The Duffster don't care about the in's and out's of it, all he wants is to get people up in a tissy so the show gets good ratings (which he's obviously achieved, he is the master after all ). You'd have a better chance writing in complaining about the horrendous lack of airsoft facilities for the over 50s.

And really, it's shameful that you let him wind you all up so easily. I know, the sports under attack but it's not really. People forget these things and move on. It'll probably come up again and again but once the main hysteria has passed they don't care.

All things considered I think that the show went very well for Airsoft. Sean and Derek got their points across and the people talking out of they're arse got shot down quickly.

I know if someone started trowing facts about the tensile strength of a coke can compared to dog skin in relation to human skin the eyes would roll around in me head and my brain would take a vacation. It's OTT! and not really necessary.

iceage

ok.ok... chilling out now:)4th cup of coffee tends to do that. sorry bout all the barking, will wait to see how it all works out at the A.G.M. Just want all this bullsh1t to end so we can all get on with it...:)

Fallschirmjager

ScumLord wrote: »

Ummmm.. I don't know lads I think ye need to relax a bit this is taking things to a ridiculous level. The Duffster don't care about the in's and out's of it, all he wants is to get people up in a tissy so the show gets good ratings (which he's obviously achieved, he is the master after all ). You'd have a better chance writing in complaining about the horrendous lack of airsoft facilities for the over 50s.

And really, it's shameful that you let him wind you all up so easily. I know, the sports under attack but it's not really. People forget these things and move on. It'll probably come up again and again but once the main hysteria has passed they don't care.

All things considered I think that the show went very well for Airsoft. Sean and Derek got their points across and the people talking out of they're arse got shot down quickly.

I know if someone started trowing facts about the tensile strength of a coke can compared to dog skin in relation to human skin the eyes would roll around in me head and my brain would take a vacation. It's OTT! and not really necessary.

i disagree...these are the same old fact that go round and round and round, so lets for once get all the facts so we can use them. also you might want to read the other thread about the fine gael guy who has begun his 'campaign' against airsoft no doubt based on the rants and raves from the radio. these are the comments that become factoids that become facts that are trotted out because they heard from someone who heard from a friend who heard it happened to his dog.

so i dont think this can be used for mr duffy, but we could easily put them on the website so whichever journo in the future can get access to them.

just my opinion.

Hivemind187

ScumLord wrote: »

Ummmm.. I don't know lads I think ye need to relax a bit this is taking things to a ridiculous level. The Duffster don't care about the in's and out's of it, all he wants is to get people up in a tissy so the show gets good ratings (which he's obviously achieved, he is the master after all ). You'd have a better chance writing in complaining about the horrendous lack of airsoft facilities for the over 50s.

And really, it's shameful that you let him wind you all up so easily. I know, the sports under attack but it's not really. People forget these things and move on. It'll probably come up again and again but once the main hysteria has passed they don't care.

All things considered I think that the show went very well for Airsoft. Sean and Derek got their points across and the people talking out of they're arse got shot down quickly.

I know if someone started trowing facts about the tensile strength of a coke can compared to dog skin in relation to human skin the eyes would roll around in me head and my brain would take a vacation. It's OTT! and not really necessary.

This is the third time I have said this I think.

It is not a response specifically to the Duffy-Squad. It is intended to be a dry run for the white paper we are putting together and as an answer to people who make such comments. It is not intended nor targetted to the general public but towards the specific nature of the law, courts, scientific explanations etc

Hivemind187

iceage wrote: »

ok.ok... chilling out now:)4th cup of coffee tends to do that. sorry bout all the barking, will wait to see how it all works out at the A.G.M. Just want all this bullsh1t to end so we can all get on with it...:)

Its cool Iceage. Best thing you and everyone else can do right now is keep skirmishing and keep being responsible. Thos two things will carry more weight than anything else at the end of the day.

Dave!

The gvmt was quick to close the 'loophole' in the legislation relating to magic mushrooms. Joe mentioned 'loophole' a few times during the show on airsoft, and I'm sure there's other people who will see it as a loophole too. So I'm not so sure we're in the clear just yet...

kdouglas

iceage wrote: »

ok.ok... chilling out now:)4th cup of coffee tends to do that. sorry bout all the barking, will wait to see how it all works out at the A.G.M. Just want all this bullsh1t to end so we can all get on with it...:)

like it or not, the bull**** will always continue

Hivemind187

DaveMcG wrote: »

The gvmt was quick to close the 'loophole' in the legislation relating to magic mushrooms. Joe mentioned 'loophole' a few times during the show on airsoft, and I'm sure there's other people who will see it as a loophole too. So I'm not so sure we're in the clear just yet...

The difference is that 'shrooms controversy had two things going against the pro-shroomers (is that what they are called?).

Firstly, as I have said, psychiadelics and cogent political debate do not go hand in hand. Secondly, it was an actual loophole in the law that allowed their unrestricted sale in Ireland.

Airsoft on the other hand doesnt suffer these problems (though we have enough of our own) and the fact that the law was changed to be in line with the other EU nations works in our favor (being a deliberate action rather than an accident) even if it doesnt specifically refer to Airsoft.

At least thats how I see it.

ScumLord

i disagree...these are the same old fact that go round and round and round, so lets for once get all the facts so we can use them.

that's fair enough, I suppose it would be good to have these facts on hand to show the utter stupidity of some comments out there ("it went through a cereal box" :rolleyes:). Just don't want to see everyone getting worked up into a frenzy it will reflect badly on the airsoft community as it sometimes comes off as slightly aggressive at times but that's just because your all so passionate about your sport (and have spent allot of money on it, I haven't spent nearly as much as some on here but I still wouldn't like to see my stuff thrown in the bin for no good reason)

We shouldn't let the grannies against everything fun wind us up and always maintain the fun aspect of the sport. One thing I noticed during the duffy show was that very little time was spent talking about the types of people that play these games, professionals mostly, that take the dangers of the sport seriously. It was hard to get around to this too much time had to be spent replying to silly things like the poor coke can.

I think it's the players that will win the sport respect in the end. Describing airsoft to someone that hasn't a clue it does sound aggressive and dangerous. If people knew the players before hand then found out they played airsoft they wouldn't say boo about it.

ScumLord

Firstly, as I have said, psychiadelics and cogent political debate do not go hand in hand. Secondly, it was an actual loophole in the law that allowed their unrestricted sale in Ireland.

I'm after finding out there's still a loophole there for them, god bless the half arsed nature of the Irish goverment

Hivemind187

ScumLord wrote: »

I'm after finding out there's still a loophole there for them, god bless the half arsed nature of the Irish goverment

Ahem .... shhhhhh!

(off topic and I do not condone the use of any illegal psychiadelics regardsless of my personal feelings on the drugs issue).

sidneyreilly

iceage wrote: »

Who is the Minister for Sport at the minute? his name escapes me, and again has the I.A.A. been in contact with him or his deparment yet? It seems all this chat about the sport going forward, and the like of AGM'S taking place is a bit pointless if we get to the stage of approching the people to recieve the response "I.A.A. WHO??, never heard of em!!!

IAA would appear much better to Sports Council etc.. if properly constituted. Government types shy away from adhoc bodies with unclear popular mandate.

iceage

iceage wrote: »

does the I.A.A. have anybody like a T.D. or a professional lawyer/ ranking member of the community to fight our corner? Has the I.A.A. approuched anybody with some social clout or is there anybody whos into Airsoft related to a Senator:cool:!!! Seriously I'm just curious as to the avenues that have been investigated by the I.A.A.? Is it a case of contacting the Sports Council of Ireland or something similar to give this sport a chance to become recognised.

Been here already mate with the S.C.I. but really glad to see that we all thinking and looking on the same direction

Boston

With regards to the aluminium, the guy got back to me basically to say there's no simple way (no equation like) to tell the energy required to penetrate a can with a bb due to the sheer number of parameters. Extensive testing would be required in a lab environment and that there's no doubt a wealth of research papers which could be drawn upon.

Masada

Boston wrote: »

With regards to the aluminium, the guy got back to me basically to say there's no simple way (no equation like) to tell the energy required to penetrate a can with a bb due to the sheer number of parameters. Extensive testing would be required in a lab environment and that there's no doubt a wealth of research papers which could be drawn upon.

could be done fairly easily i recon, a few cans needed, an air tank or compressor, an air pressure regulator and a 6mm tube to use as a barrell, then rig it all up to fire 6m bbs at low pressure and chrono it, then increase the pressure along to way until it fires through the can where you could chrono it again and see exactly what speed or whatever it would need to penetrate a can.,

Hivemind187

vtec wrote: »

could be done fairly easily i recon, a few cans needed, an air tank or compressor, an air pressure regulator and a 6mm tube to use as a barrell, then rig it all up to fire 6m bbs at low pressure and chrono it, then increase the pressure along to way until it fires through the can where you could chrono it again and see exactly what speed or whatever it would need to penetrate a can.,

Trouble is that it is original research, a classic failing in any scientific argument.

Were we doing the research ourselves we should, by rights, get an independant group to formalise and test the various things we want so that no accusations of fudging the figures can be made. Unfortunately, this would be incredibly expensive and would take too long.

What I need is a verifiable and oft-quoted piece of research or paper that discusses the ballistic resitance of aluminium by specific height, depth, width and weight. If I cant get it I'll figure something else out.

thanks any way lads.

Boston

Hivemind187 wrote: »

Trouble is that it is original research, a classic failing in any scientific argument.

Were we doing the research ourselves we should, by rights, get an independant group to formalise and test the various things we want so that no accusations of fudging the figures can be made. Unfortunately, this would be incredibly expensive and would take too long.

What I need is a verifiable and oft-quoted piece of research or paper that discusses the ballistic resitance of aluminium by specific height, depth, width and weight. If I cant get it I'll figure something else out.

thanks any way lads.

As I understand it you won't find something that general as different modes of failure will become more or less significant depending of the physical attributes of the aluminium such as thickness. You'll therefore need the research of someone whose specifically examined aluminium at the desired thickness for the type of failure we're interested in. That's going to be pretty difficult to find.

Hivemind187

Boston wrote: »

As I understand it you won't find something that general as different modes of failure will become more or less significant depending of the physical attributes of the aluminium such as thickness. You'll therefore need the research of someone whose specifically examined aluminium at the desired thickness for the type of failure we're interested in. That's going to be pretty difficult to find.

It's a bugger isnt it?

Thinking about it more, the ballistic resistance would probably be shown as a curved graph meaning that extrapolating a set of figures, even rough ones, from anything I could find is going to be intellectually dishonest and scientifically void.

Smeg.

Looks likes its back to the drawing board.

IRISH RAIL

What about the manufacturers they might be able to help