Merc invents tech that rivals copy eventually.Thats why they're copying BMW then.

E92

Mercedes-Benz are the people that always bring us world firsts. They were first with an airbag(W126 S-class,1981). First with direct injection(the 300 SL Gullwing all the way back in 54). First mass produced car with ABS as standard(S-class again).

First with Active Cruise Control(W220 S-class), air suspension(same car), 7 speed Automatic(OK ZF supplied it, but Merc are the first and only car to use it). First with night vision facility, a digit speedo that looks like a proper one(current S-class), and first for many other things that we now take for granted.

But one thing has been missing all the time. Engines.

Merc hasn't invented anything I can see ever with engines(bar the aforementioned 300SL). I know they will be the first with Bluetec, but that was a 3 way effort with VAG and BMW(though I know both pulled out in the end).

Now we see, that there will be an E350 CGI very soon. Perhaps Merc were embarassed that BMW could manage the same amount of power from 3.0 litres as Merc could from the old 3.5(272 bhp). But thats a problem solved now. The 350 CGI will have 292 bhp, and is a direct injection engine.

So why is it copying BMW? Because BMW were first with high precision injection(the piezo injectors), and guess what, the new E350 has them too!

Unfortunately Merc can't get it to do as good a job as BMW(then again they're using a V6, so I'll give Merc the credit for the first V6 with high precision injection), since the E350 CGI averages 32.5 mpg(BMW did better with no direct injection in the E60 530i), compared to a 530i's average of 36.7 mpg.

So so much for Merc's 'road to the future' then. And its an extra model not a replacement model.

At least BMW aren't all talk and no action. This year they managed an average CO2 reduction of 23% with their Efficient Dynamics programme, for the 1,3,5 and 6 series and smaller reductions for the entire Z4 and selected X5 and 7 series models(the diesel ones). No matter what way you try to spin that, that is extraordinarily impressive, especially when all the big sellers for the brand have benefitted.

Here's the link.

And we're getting one of those super green Bluetec models too, in the form of an E300 CDI Bluetec.

JHMEG

Rest assured if BMW invented something then they patented it. Therefore if Merc are using something BMW patented then BMW are getting reward (royalties) for every one made.

While I generally don't defend German marques, I'd say there's a reasonably good explanation for the Merc getting lower MPG. It's possibly either that BMW set up their cars (gearbox ratios specifically) to do better in the tests, or the Merc is heavier, or has better safety features and isn't as aerodynamic as a result. Or something.

colm_mcm

surely who brings something to market first matters less than how many models that manufacturer actually fits the feature to.

JHMEG

A quick google of piezo electric fuel injection seems to reveal that it was not invented by BMW, nor by Siemens or Bosch, who actually manufacture systems.

Several patents were awarded, one I've found goes back as far as 1977.
http://www.wikipatents.com/4022166.html

While searching to see if BMW patented anything that other manufacturers actually use, I did find that they patented a skateboard:

colm_mcm

isn't that skateboard based on the BMW rear suspension?

JHMEG

colm_mcm wrote: »

isn't that skateboard based on the BMW rear suspension?

I dunno. But it's very bloody expensive at $500 a pop. I suppose that's for the badge.:D

E92

My apologies,a bad and wrong choice of word by me to use the word invented, but BMW were the first to bring it to market. Note that I said Merc were first to do it, not invent it. OP suitably edited.

And BMW did inventValvetronic . No other non BMW group car other than the cars to benefit from that joint project between BMW and PSA for the 1.4 and 1.6 petrols. And they were first with the twin sequential turbos too(though they didn't invent that AFAIK).

As for the Merc, its slower than the BMW(0-100 in 6.7 as opposed to 6.3 for the Auto and 6.1 for the manual) and the current E350 weighs 1690 kg [source) and the BMW weighs 1605 kg, so theres not a lot in it is there(certainly not enough to explain that much of a gap).

peasant

Say, E92, is there a special church of BMW where you worship?

colm_mcm

I think VTEC and MIVEC are more impressive than Valvetronic. variable valve timing and lift was done before BMW did it

unkel

More of a rant than a thread, E92?

As for variable valve timing - it was invented by FIAT, back in the 60s

wet-paint

I must admit E92, I do enjoy reading your posts, they're an education.

colm_mcm

one for you E92

unkel

We've done that one a few times already, Colm. But maybe E92 hasn't seen it yet?

Smartarse ad it is

JHMEG

@Unkel, Fiat might have been first to make it but Honda were first to perfect it, and without infringing on or borrowing anyone else's patents.

Whip the rocker cover off a DOHC VTEC engine and I guarantee even you will be impressed! I'm *still* amazed how the VTEC rocker locks up at such high rpm without bits of engine flying everywhere.

@E92, it's probably fair to say Siemens were first to bring it to market by scoring BMW as a customer. I'm also pretty sure they didn't do the twin turbo first.

Valvetronic seems to have been a bit of a waste of time. From wikipedia "Valvetronic has so far been limited to BMW's mass-market engines, with no high-performance M-series car using the technology. The Valvetronic hardware adds a great deal of mass to the valvetrain, limiting maximum engine speeds (~7,000 rpm peak rpm in N52) engines and making it unsuitable for the high-revving M engines"

Makes one wonder what valvetronic can achieve in real terms that a normal DOHC engine can't.. No other manufacturer has licensed it as a result.

@colm.. I like it:D

unkel

JHMEG wrote: »

@Unkel, Fiat might have been first to make it but Honda were first to perfect it

Perfect is a big word

JHMEG

unkel wrote: »

Perfect is a big word

I know you're anti-Jap, but come on, credit where credit is due. VTEC delivered variable valve timing and variable lift, on intake and exhaust valves, to the masses. As for perfect, I've never heard anyone say that Honda didn't get it right.

All hail VTEC:D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzW8ECb5xWk

E92

That ad is fantastic, colm mcm. I love it:D. And no, I've never seen it before.

@unkel, I fail to see how it is a rant. Its merely pointing out that Mercedes are a bit behind the times compared to BMW in the engine department, and highlighting that BMW aren't all talk and no/limited action(unlike Merc)on reducing their carbon footprint.I fail to see how telling the truth about the matter is a rant.Though I admit I gave a running commentary while I was at it .

I'm just simply disappointed/amazed that nobody has bothered to follow BMW and cut emissions by 23% in one big swoop. I mean for all Toyota's talk with green cars and their Prius and all that, why is their 1.6 Avensis no cleaner than a 330i?(they both do the same mpg).

Some people seem to think that I am making the claim that BMW invented variable valve timing. I said they invented Valvetronic, which is not VVT(it works in conjunction with VVT, but it is not VVT).

And yes High Precision Injection may have replaced Valvetronic, but only someone who doesn't like BMW couldn't but acknowledge that it was a useful technology, and a very good one at the time. And it could be used with 1st generation direct injection engines, their V8's and V12's have Valvetronic and direct injection.

It cut fuel consumption by up to 15% and increased power at the same time. How is that a "waste"?

From Wikipedia about the V12 with Valvetronic:It was along the first BMW engines to receive the revolutionary Valvetronic technology, which surprisingly gives it more economical fuel consumption than older non-Valvetronic V8 BMW engines.

Like every technology it has limitations(such as the fact it can't be combined with 2nd generation direct injection or can't be used in a car that revs beyond 7,000 rpm), but saying it was a waste is like saying VTEC was a waste because we now have i-VTEC(and before I get a lecture about the 2 systems I know how they work) which is better than VTEC. Or like saying that fuel injection was a waste of time because direct injection is what's needed now.

Direct Injection has limitations(I notice Honda aren't in a rush to use it either, AFAIK there is no Honda available here with direct injection, only the Logo(VTEC DI) and one version of the Stream(i-VTEC I, but that has been replaced with the R-series which has no direct injection), according to Wikipedianow that is a rant:D), namely it is expensive and it needs high quality fuel. Hence why BMW aren't bringing the new generation of engines to the North American or Austrailian market.

But are people seriously suggesting that just because they have poorer fuel that BMW should deny them a technology that is still perfectly good, and still reduces emissions and increases power?

And DOHC is nothing to with Valvetronic. BMW have had an all DOHC lineup for the best part of 6 years(excluding their V12). If you ignore(some of) the 4 pots and the V12, BMW have had an all DOHC lineup since 1992.

@JHMEG:As for saying that Simens were first to bring High Precision Injection, I must say I really enjoyed reading that, for obvious reasons. Bosch invented common rail diesel. Did Bosch bring that first to market? I don't see anyone crediting Bosch, its Fiat were first with it and are as such credited with being first to do it. And BMW were first to bring 2nd gen Common Rail diesel to market(along with Volvo). BMW are the only make where all the volume sellers{1(116i is getting new tech for MY08) and 3 series(all MY 08have the new tech), all 5 series (bar the V8's which nobody buys here anyway)} use the latest direct injection tech. And BMW brought Valvetronic to the masses.

@colm_mcm:Valvetronic isn't even anything to do with MIVEC and VTEC. BMW hads their own version,VANOS(and double VANOS) which came out in 1992(and Double VANOS which arrived in 1999. I don't think VANOS or double VANOS is more impressive than VTEC or MIVEC(since they have variable lift and /or cam profiling and VANOS or Double VANOS doesn't).

But Valvetronic got rid of the throttle butterfly.
Valvetronic does the following

Wikipedia.org wrote:

Valvetronic-equipped engines are unique in that they rely on the amount of valve lift to throttle the engine rather than a butterfly valve in the intake tract. In other words, in normal driving, the "gas pedal" controls the Valvetronic hardware rather than the throttle plate.

That certainly is more impressive than VTEC or MIVEC(or VANOS for that matter).

CrowdedHouse

E92 - do you actually own a BMW ?

E92

No. At least not yet:D. Needless to say when I do get one, I'll mention it.

JHMEG

E92 wrote: »

But Valvetronic got rid of the throttle butterfly. That certainly is more impressive than VTEC or MIVEC(or VANOS for that matter).

Depends on how easily impressed you are! Valvetronic sounds to me like it makes a petrol engine operate somewhat like a diesel does (no throttle plate, aka butterfly valve).

bushy...

Lotus (afaik ) were working on a system to dump the cams and throttle altogether, allowing the engine to change firing order, shut down individual cylinders etc on the fly. That' s a way better trick than adding more mass to ancient system.

CrowdedHouse

E92 wrote: »

No. At least not yet:D. Needless to say when I do get one, I'll mention it.

Fair play ... you deserve one

copacetic

E92 wrote: »

@unkel, I fail to see how it is a rant. Its merely pointing out that Mercedes are a bit behind the times compared to BMW in the engine department, and highlighting that BMW aren't all talk and no/limited action(unlike Merc)on reducing their carbon footprint.I fail to see how telling the truth about the matter is a rant.Though I admit I gave a running commentary while I was at it .

reads like a rant to me, it doesn't even make much sense. who are all these people saying everyone steals off Mercedes? and why pick on them? BMW are well behind other marques in developing smaller more efficient but powerful engines. Reducing the emissions on what are ridiculously polluting engines to begin with isn't actually impressive, at least to me. Fair enough you are a BMW fanboy but try to keep some sense of reason?

E92

copacetic wrote: »

BMW are well behind other marques in developing smaller more efficient but powerful engines. Reducing the emissions on what are ridiculously polluting engines to begin with isn't actually impressive, at least to me.

That is just so untrue. Allow me to explain.

How many cars have more power than a Sierra Cosworth, more torque than a Ferrari 360 Modena yet still can average 54.3 mpg?

None is the answer, apart from the BMW 123d.

Has any other car maker managed to introduce technology that reduces emissions of the entire fleet in one single year by 23%?

Nobody has done that either, only BMW.

If BMW have done nothing to clean up their act on the enviornment, I suppose that explains why the 530i with an Auto gearbox is more efficient than a GS 450 Hybrid(and both are large 6 pots).

And also why the lowest polluting executive diesel car by a mile is the 520d. Even when Merc get their Bluetec diesel Hybrids up and running, the 520d will only be 2 g/km dirtier than the Merc.

In fact the 118i is as efficient as rival's diesel models. Given that diesels are usually 10-15 mpg better on the fuel economy thing than petrols, that is no mean achievement. And you have the benefit of lower CO2 too than a diesel(as diesels produce around 10% more CO2 than a petrol does when they both manage the same mpg).

Not to mention the fact that the 330i has 272 bhp yet does exactly the same amount of mpg as the 1.6 Avensis. Or the 325i with 218 bhp which is cleaner than any 4 cyl petrol car like the Avensis bar the VW Passat TSI, which is not even half the size of an engine(since the 325i is a 3.0).

And the company's V8's in the 5 series aren't far behind rival's 6 cylinder engines for fuel economy either. Given the big difference in engine size, thats not to be ignored.

Unlike other makes which seem to have halo models for enviornmental efficiency, BMW fits its eco friendly technology to all its volume sellers. The 1, 3, 5 and 6 series all benefit. The 1,3 and 5 series are the company's biggest sellers by a mile.

kaiser sauze

E92 wrote: »

Unlike other makes which seem to have halo models for enviornmental efficiency, BMW fits its eco friendly technology to all its volume sellers. The 1, 3, 5 and 6 series all benefit. The 1,3 and 5 series are the company's biggest sellers by a mile.

I was about to buy a 7-Series, but you've just ruined it.

It seems like if I do, I'm as bad as Mercedes, Toyota, VAG, FIAT and all the other car-makers you mention.

I think I might have to weep for the tree-huggers.

copacetic

E92 wrote: »

In fact the 118i is as efficient as rival's diesel models. Given that diesels are usually 10-15 mpg better on the fuel economy thing than petrols, that is no mean achievement. And you have the benefit of lower CO2 too than a diesel(as diesels produce around 10% more CO2 than a petrol does when they both manage the same mpg).

this is an example of the fanboy talk I mentioned above. None of the above is even remotely true. I'll give the specs rather that make blanket statements like you, I'm sure others can compare the bmw to cars they are familiar with.
As you can see from below, not only is the 118 engine nowhere near as economic as the 2.0d from Audi, while also having much worse co2 emissions. It is also slower.

So above is absolute BS, the 118 is nowhere near the performance, economy and emissions of it's rivals petrols, never mind their diesels!



118i in 3 series saloon from bmw website

0-100 10s
combined 7.3 l/100
co2 175 g/km

audi 1.8T in new A4

0-100 8.4
combined 7.1 l/100
co2 169 g/km

audi 2.0TDI in new A4
0-100 9.4
combined 5.5 l/100
co2 144 g/km

E92

Actually, you're the one thats wrong. Where did you get those figures for the BMW? Cause they're completely wrong.

BMW's UK website tells us that the 118i does 47.9 mpg and CO2 emissions are 140 g/km.
The CO2 is lower than any car you mentioned.

And the 318i pollutes 142 g/km, again less than the diesel Audi, averages 47.9 mpg(for what it's worth the A4 2.0 TDI averages 48.7 mpg) and does 0-100 in 9.1.

copacetic wrote:

I'm sure others can compare the bmw to cars they are familiar with.

I'm just after doing it for them.

The Alfa 159 JTD-M averages 47.1 mpg, Jaguar X-Type 2.0 D averages 48.5 mpg,Lexus IS 220d averages 44.8 mpg, Merc C200 CDI averages 49.6 mpg(and produces more CO2 than the 318i at 149 g/km), Saab 9-3 1.9 TiD 150 bhp averages 48.7 mpg(and produces more CO2 than the 318i again).

So my claim that the 318i is as economical as rival diesels is shown to be pretty much true don't you think? Even when the 318i is less economical, its only a couple of mpg at most and in fact in 2 cases its more economical(and all that time the 318i is the kindest to the planet of all those because it has the lowest CO2 rating of any of those cars).

And as the Irish spec ones are the same as the UK models, needless to say it applies for our models.

copacetic

E92 wrote: »

Actually, you're the one thats wrong. Where did you get those figures for the BMW? Cause they're completely wrong.

BMW's UK website tells us that the 118i does 47.9 mpg and CO2 emissions are 140 g/km.
The CO2 is lower than any car you mentioned.

And the 318i pollutes 142 g/km, again less than the diesel Audi, averages 47.9 mpg(for what it's worth the A4 2.0 TDI averages 48.7 mpg) and does 0-100 in 9.1.

The Irish one does as well.

And as the Irish spec ones are the same as the UK models, needless to say it applies for our models.

em, as I said from bmw.ie, your link is just to the main site, not to any data:

here is a direct link to the data:

http://www.bmw.ie/ie/en/newvehicles/3series/sedan/2005/allfacts/engine_data.html

as i said:

318 series saloon from bmw website:

0-100 10s
combined 7.3 l/100
co2 175 g/km

E92

copacetic wrote: »

em, as I said from bmw.ie, your link is just to the main site, not to any data:

here is a direct link to the data:

http://www.bmw.ie/ie/en/newvehicles/3series/sedan/2005/allfacts/engine_data.html

as i said:

318 series saloon from bmw website:

0-100 10s
combined 7.3 l/100
co2 175 g/km

Go to the car configurator. Select 3 series, and saloon, and tell me what you find.(it doesn't have 0-100 times I know, but trust me if the UK site says it then thats what it is).

And note my suitably edited post above.

JHMEG

Mmm. It appears bmw.com currently backs what E92 is saying. But all other sites (eg parkers.co.uk, and bmw.ie) back what copacetic is saying.

It would seem bmw.com is deliberabtly misleading and is quoting figures for cars fitted with the hybid-type goodies that BMW is calling "EfficientDynamics", like Auto Stop. Could E92 have been caught out!

But then again, not the first time BMW tried to mislead people on the web. Last time earned them a blacklist from Google.

CrowdedHouse

JHMEG wrote:

It would seem bmw.com is deliberabtly misleading and is quoting figures for cars fitted with the hybid-type goodies that BMW is calling "EfficientDynamics", like Auto Stop. Could E92 have been caught out!

These 'goodies' are fitted as standard on 3 series 4 cylinder models since September build,ie 08 model

E92

JHMEG wrote: »

Mmm. It appears bmw.com currently backs what E92 is saying. But all other sites (eg parkers.co.uk, and bmw.ie) back what copacetic is saying.

It would seem bmw.com is deliberabtly misleading and is quoting figures for cars fitted with the hybid-type goodies that BMW is calling "EfficientDynamics", like Auto Stop. So misleading is this that it even caught E92 out!

BMW UK backs what I'm saying. See my link above. So does BMW's German site. And the Irish one, if you look in the right place. They can't all be wrong. No disrespect to you, but I think BMW would know better than Parkers, What Car etc about what their cars are capable of.

I know BMW's efficient Dynamics Technology uses Hybrid 'goodies'. As BMW have shown, there's nothing stopping them being used on non Hybrid cars. And they clearly work, they certainly work well enough to beat Hybrid car, as I've mentioned above too. Why do you think it gives 70% of the fuel consumption benefits of a Hybrid?

And as theres no electric motor, its NOT a Hybrid.

copacetic

E92 wrote: »

Go to the car configurator. Select 3 series, and saloon, and tell me what you find.(it doesn't have 0-100 times I know, but trust me if the UK site says it then thats what it is).

And note my suitably edited post above.

ffs i gave you a direct feckin link, is that not good enough??

go to bmw.ie, hit the 3 for 3 series, hit all the facts, hit engine and chassis, hit technical data, there you go. exactly what is on the direct link I gave you above..

JHMEG

E92 wrote: »

And as theres no electric motor, its NOT a Hybrid.

Not yet, but BMW are catching up with Honda and Toyota. Jeez, and I thought you said BMW were innovators.:D

CrowdedHouse wrote: »

These 'goodies' are fitted as standard on 3 series 4 cylinder models since September build,ie 08 model

But not available yet? Link above, text says "Hybrid technology will soon be available in BMW vehicles"

Snarler

Any body else try to avoid people who refer to BMWs buy their E number?

JHMEG

Can we put this latest argument to bed finally?

If I go into a BMW dealer on monday and pick out a brand new 318, say an automatic (apparently BMWs have better resale if they're autos, according to what I read on here), will it be the 175g CO2/km version, or the 142g version?

E92

JHMEG wrote: »

Can we put this latest argument to bed finally?

If I go into a BMW dealer on monday and pick out a brand new 318, say an automatic (apparently BMWs have better resale if they're autos, according to what I read on here), will it be the 175g CO2/km version, or the 142g version?

Autos have better resale values if they're large engined 3 series(6 pot models), all 5 series and above AFAIK.

If you go into your BMW dealer and order a new 318i tomorrow, your 318i will be the 142 g/km version. The 3 series was facelifted about a month ago. The main change is aforementioned engines with more power and considerably less CO2. All MY08 are the low emissions ones.

The 175 g/km 318i is the prefacelift model. BMW's Irish website's 3 series prices confirm this. If you go into the car configurator, they give you the prices and emissions.

It says 318i ES Saloon 141 hp(105KW) 1995 cc 5.9(l/100km)/142[6.4/152](figures in sqaure brackets refer to Auto models) 40,650 €. The only 3 series that now produces 175 g/km is the 330d Auto Saloon.

JHMEG wrote:

Not yet, but BMW are catching up with Honda and Toyota. Jeez, and I thought you said BMW were innovators.:D

Aren't Honda and Toyota guilty of the exact same charge? BMW's first common rail diesel was the 530d in 1998. Toyota's first was the D-4D in 2001 with the Avensis. And Honda joined them in 2003 with the Accord i-CTDi. Now who was doing the catching up there;)?

copacetic wrote:

ffs i gave you a direct feckin link, is that not good enough??

go to bmw.ie, hit the 3 for 3 series, hit all the facts, hit engine and chassis, hit technical data, there you go. exactly what is on the direct link I gave you above.

I give up. I told you exactly where to find my figures(the correct ones) on BMW's Irish website(see post Nr 29), I told you before that the correct tech spec figures are the ones on their UK website, and the Irish spec models are identical(bar the km/h speedo), I'm after comparing the car to its diesel rivals and showing you what I said about the car to be 100% true, and you're still telling me after all that that I'm wrong, talking BS and fanboy talk!

Your direct link is a link to outdated info. It might well be on BMW's Irish site, hence why I used their UK one in the first place(really odd considering that BMW Ireland is a subsidary of BMW GB), but this is the same site that doesn't know that the 1 series Coupé is now on sale, still has a link to the pre facelift 1 series in spite of the fact that the facelifted version has been around since around April and doesn't know about the new Efficient Dynamics 6 series not mentione the fact it doesn't even know the proper modelsavailable for the 3 series. The correct info on the Irish site is at the start of this post.

JHMEG

E92 wrote: »

If you go into your BMW dealer and order a new 318i tomorrow, your 318i will be the 142 g/km version.

And this one uses EffecientDynamics to achieve such low figures, right?

Pete4779

E92 wrote: »

Merc hasn't invented anything I can see ever with engines(bar the aforementioned 300SL).

They invented forced induction in 1900.

E92

JHMEG wrote: »

And this one uses EffecientDynamics to achieve such low figures, right?

Yup. And only 5 bhp less than the 320i without Efficient Dynamics as well. And as I described in earlier posts, as efficient as rival diesels on mpg, and lower CO2 than them to boot.

MercMad

Oh a BMW fan !

Yawn !!

Hey didn't BMW also invent Nikasil engine problems ??

Now go and turn off your foglights will ya !!

unkel

MercMad wrote: »

Hey didn't BMW also invent Nikasil

Wasn't Nikasil developed for the first time for a Mercedes Wankel engine?

Porsche has been using Nikasil for about 40 years! Other makes that (have) use(d) Nikasil for cars are Ferrari, NSU, Maserati, Jaguar and even the likes of Ford and Citroen. It's been used for bikes too

MercMad

unkel wrote: »

Wasn't Nikasil developed for the first time for a Mercedes Wankel engine?

Porsche has been using Nikasil for about 40 years! Other makes that (have) use(d) Nikasil for cars are Ferrari, NSU, Maserati, Jaguar and even the likes of Ford and Citroen. It's been used for bikes too

.....yes I'm well aware oif its history and applications, my point was that BMW invented the Nikasil problem

unkel

MercMad wrote: »

my point was that BMW invented the Nikasil problem

I bet they actually wished they had invented the problem. Then at least they could start blaming themselves properly

JHMEG

Curious as to why loads of manufacturers used nikasil, but why was BMW so seriously affected, while most others weren't affected by it at all?

Biro

unkel wrote: »

More of a rant than a thread, E92?

As for variable valve timing - it was invented by FIAT, back in the 60s

And as mentioned Fiat co-developed common rail with Bosch. And all this talk about BMW being great!

E92

Biro wrote: »

And as mentioned Fiat co-developed common rail with Bosch. And all this talk about BMW being great!

Aye, but who was first to bring high precision direct injection petrols and second generation common rail diesels to market:D?