The remarkable humanity of the Choctaw tribe

McArmalite

In 1847, midway through the Famine, on hearing of the suffering in Ireland, a group of Choctaw tribe collected $710 ( a large quantity of money for the time, maybe several hundred thousand by today's standard) and sent it to help the victims. Considering that Ireland was thousands of miles away, across the sea, and that it had been just 16 years since the Choctaw people had experienced the Trail of Tears at the hands of the white man, many of the soldiers been Irish, it was an amazing and outstanding gesture.

The values and humanity of the Native Americans was remarkable. Sadly modern society, especially Ireland, does'nt have a fraction of it.

mikemac

I've heard of this and it was a very unique gesture.

Sadly, many of the Irish who immigrated to Ireland committed terrible acts against the Indians.
Both in the army and in the aim of establishing farmland for themselves.

"The only good Indian is a dead Indian"

Who Said It: Gen. Philip Sheridan (family from Cavan)

When: 1869

The Story behind It: In January, 1869, General Sheridan held a conference with 50 Indian chiefs at Fort Cobb in the so-called Indian Territory (later part of Oklahoma). At that time, Sheridan, who had gained recognition as a Union officer in the Civil War, was in charge of the Dept. of the Missouri. One of his duties was to oversee the Indian Territory, making sure that the Indians remained on their reservations and did not harass the white settlers. When Comanche chief Toch-a-way was introduced to Sheridan at the conference, the Indian said, "Me Toch-a-way, me good Indian." Sheridan reportedly smirked and replied, "The only good Indians I ever saw were dead." Later on, the remark became "The only good Indian is a dead Indian."

McArmalite

micmclo wrote: »

I've heard of this and it was a very unique gesture.

Sadly, many of the Irish who immigrated to Ireland committed terrible acts against the Indians.
Both in the army and in the aim of establishing farmland for themselves.

"The only good Indian is a dead Indian"

Who Said It: Gen. Philip Sheridan (family from Cavan)

When: 1869

The Story behind It: In January, 1869, General Sheridan held a conference with 50 Indian chiefs at Fort Cobb in the so-called Indian Territory (later part of Oklahoma). At that time, Sheridan, who had gained recognition as a Union officer in the Civil War, was in charge of the Dept. of the Missouri. One of his duties was to oversee the Indian Territory, making sure that the Indians remained on their reservations and did not harass the white settlers. When Comanche chief Toch-a-way was introduced to Sheridan at the conference, the Indian said, "Me Toch-a-way, me good Indian." Sheridan reportedly smirked and replied, "The only good Indians I ever saw were dead." Later on, the remark became "The only good Indian is a dead Indian."

Yes, it's terrible the way Irish people went over there and participated in some of the worst atrocities and abuses commited in history, no doubt about it. No making ANY excuses whatsovever, but as for establishing farmland for themselves, I thought that the Irish, having obviously such a bad experience of trying to make a living off the land at home, mainly tended to remain in the large cities and urban areas, New York, Chicago, Boston etc as cops, firemen, construction workers, bars etc. Though I suppose those who had been in the army probably did grab large traits of land that they had ethnically cleansed. Just an historical point, no excuses for the massacres and ethnic cleansing many Irishmen participated in.

Thanks for putting me right that it was Sheridan who is respondcible for the "The only good Indian is a dead Indian." remark. I always thought it was Custer.

mikemac

You are correct, the majority of Irish would have stayed in cities.
Strangly, many emigrants from urban areas like Germany or Holland tended to be the ones establishing ranches. I find that interesting, people realy did leave their past behind when they emigrated.

But of course with the numbers involved there still would have been thousands of Irish trying to build farms so of course conflicts did occur.
And tens of thousands in the army of course.

Now that I think of it, as we enter the winter maybe the President could do some of gesture for the Choctaw tribe on the 160th anniversary of Black 47

McArmalite

micmclo wrote: »

You are correct, the majority of Irish would have stayed in cities.
Strangly, many emigrants from urban areas like Germany or Holland tended to be the ones establishing ranches. I find that interesting, people realy did leave their past behind when they emigrated.

But of course with the numbers involved there still would have been thousands of Irish trying to build farms so of course conflicts did occur.
And tens of thousands in the army of course.

Now that I think of it, as we enter the winter maybe the President could do some of gesture for the Choctaw tribe on the 160th anniversary of Black 47

Mary Robinson addressed the Choctaw tribe back in 1995.

http://www.uwm.edu/~michael/choctaw/robinson.html

Exit

I had heard about this incident a few years back and it moved me enough to make a direct debit to GOAL every month. I couldn't believe that these people decided to help out some strangers on the other side of the world even though they weren't particularly well off, so I figured I could do the same.

Not somebody who's music I like, but Damien Dempsey has a song called Choctaw Nation regarding this incident.

Fratton Fred

It was remarkable, but I thought it was common knowledge. There was Private aid from all over, mainly from the empire, but also Turkey (As has been stated in another thread).

http://multitext.ucc.ie/d/Overseas_Aid

WindSock

God bless Mary Robinson. Isn't she fab? Although I must say, even if the Irish didn't do much for the Native Americans, We are quite good at giving aid to various charities. We were one of the highest in the world for the Tsunami relief fund.

yomchi

Damien Dempsey wrote a song about the Choctaws, a fitting tribute to a very generous tribe of people.

metaoblivia

As stated in another thread on this board, I'm an American who's ethnic background is Irish, Choctaw, and Cherokee. My Choctaw and Cherokee ancestors were moved from their native lands to Oklahoma during the Trail of the Tears. I like to think that the Choctaw knew something of suffering and oppression, and empathized with the plight of the Irish. When I first learned about the donation given by the Choctaw, it made me very proud of my Choctaw blood.

Mrs. MacGyver

That's really amazing story. The kindness of strangers is a rare thing.

bellagunn

the gesture made by the Choctaw was one of compassion for a people in need, the Irish in question were starving and had to make a long journey to their governor to get the appropriate documentation to verify they were paupers and poor enough to receive rations. Hundreds of people walked for days and upon arriving at their destination they were turned away, it was too late in the day and there would be no audiences or petitions seen for several days. The ones that could turned around and went home, a few died in front of the governors house, many more died on the trip back and still many more died upon arriving home. The Choctaw were appalled that
the Irish government would not support it’s own people. No matter what the tribe had it was distributed as evenly as possible so the idea of people starving while the person in charge was well fed was an anathema. So they gathered their resources to help.
Contention between the Irish and native populations in the states has more to do with social economic competition than any real racial prejudice. Intermarriage
between the Irish and native tribal people ….also between native people and freed slaves was fairly common. Socially these people were considered “on the same level” so a marriage between a Irish woman and a native man would be accepted by the community at large whereas a marriage between a new Englander (white) and native (though not unheard of) was frowned on. The inter marriage between the Irish and Choctaw in particular is fairly extensive, you find a lot of Irish patriarchal surnames mixed into Choctaw matriarchal lineage. I myself have a native grandmother (Choctaw) and Irish grandfather (county Clair), a good friend of mine who is full blood band card carrying looks the picture of Irish stereotype red hair and all.
Just a little perspective, native culture values the community over the individual. Something that is sorely lacking in our modern capitalistic society. It is unfortunate that gesture like this are so sensational to us, that just shows how removed we are from our neighbors

PDN

My understanding is that much of the intermarriage between Irish and native Americans was from the earlier immigration wave of Scots-Irish (primarily Presbyterians from Ulster) rather than the later wave of Catholic immigration.

Also most of the Irish involvement in atrocities against the native Americans can be attributed to the Scots-Irish (although it was a Sullivan who articulated the doctrine of 'Manifest Destiny' - that the white man had a divine destiny to conquer other peoples).

It is interesting that when the Cherokee tribe officially joined themselves with the Confederacy in the American Civil War, many of the Great Cherokee Council had Scots-Irish names. The Cherokees tended to appoint those with some white blood - indeed their chief, John Ross, was only one-eighth Cherokee and couldn't even speak the Cherokee language.

So we don't need to feel too guilty - blame it all on those Northern prods.

McArmalite

" the Irish in question were starving and had to make a long journey to their governor to get the appropriate documentation to verify they were paupers and poor enough to receive rations. " Yes ballagun, that march is commerated every year in Mayo for 3rd world charities and memembers of the Choctaw tribe come over and take part in it. Remarkable people.

PDN wrote: »

My understanding is that much of the intermarriage between Irish and native Americans was from the earlier immigration wave of Scots-Irish (primarily Presbyterians from Ulster) rather than the later wave of Catholic immigration.

Also most of the Irish involvement in atrocities against the native Americans can be attributed to the Scots-Irish (although it was a Sullivan who articulated the doctrine of 'Manifest Destiny' - that the white man had a divine destiny to conquer other peoples).

It is interesting that when the Cherokee tribe officially joined themselves with the Confederacy in the American Civil War, many of the Great Cherokee Council had Scots-Irish names. The Cherokees tended to appoint those with some white blood - indeed their chief, John Ross, was only one-eighth Cherokee and couldn't even speak the Cherokee language.

So we don't need to feel too guilty - blame it all on those Northern prods.

Do'nt know much about the intermarraige of Irish and Native Americans but maybe you could enlighten us with some stats or a good link as you seem so knowledgeable on it.

John O'Sullivan (November 15, 1813 – March 24, 1895), was an American columnist and editor who used the term "Manifest Destiny" in 1845 to promote the annexation of Texas and the Oregon Country to the United States. O'Sullivan was born on the North Atlantic Ocean during the War of 1812, his mother having taken refuge on a British ship to avoid plague in Gibraltar, where his father was engaged in business. His father, also named John, was a naturalized American citizen of Irish ancestry; his mother Mary Rowly was English. O'Sullivan attended Columbia College in New York City, where he excelled. Although one half of him had Irish genealogy, I think it would be a safe bet to say that his daddy's ancestry were Castle Catholics, a certain type of creature who would have been embarrassed by and hostile to all Irishness ( some of them are still about ), and who would have taken their value system, cultural and social cues from the british ruling class .

As for the history of the Cherokee tribe, could we keep this discussion on the outstanding compassion of the Choctaw tribe to the Irish people during the famine. If you wish to start a thread on the history of the Cherokee tribe - feel free to do so. BTW John Ross was seven-eighths Scottish. He was born in Turkeytown, Alabama, along the Coosa River, near Lookout Mountain, to Mollie and Daniel Ross. Ross's genealogy begins with William Shorey, a Scottish interpreter, and his "fullblood" wife Ghigooie, a member of the Bird clan. In 1769, their daughter Anna married John McDonald, a Scottish trader at Fort Loudoun, in Tennessee. This marriage produced a daughter Mollie, who in 1786 married Daniel Ross, a Scotsman who had gone to live among the Cherokee during the American Revolution. Can'nt blame it on the taigs, sorry to disappoint you.

I started this thread to highlight the incredible genorosity and humanity of the Choctaw tribe and no doubt, the Native Americans in general. It's a pity someone has to come and try and turn it into a secterian mud slinging contest.

PDN

McArmalite wrote: »

I started this thread to highlight the incredible genorosity and humanity of the Choctaw tribe and no doubt, the Native Americans in general. It's a pity someone has to come and try and turn it into a secterian mud slinging contest.

And I was adding a few historical tidbits to a friendly discussion on the links between native Americans and the Irish. I'm genuinely shocked and amazed that it could be taken any other way. I'll withdraw from the thread since people are so touchy.

McArmalite

PDN wrote: »

And I was adding a few historical tidbits to a friendly discussion on the links between native Americans and the Irish. I'm genuinely shocked and amazed that it could be taken any other way. I'll withdraw from the thread since people are so touchy.

Well, fair enough if your just adding a few historical points to a civil discussion, but I can'nt see the reason for the " So we don't need to feel too guilty - blame it all on those Northern prods. " input. The problem is, so many discussion on this forum are hijacked with the "the IRA did this, the IRA did that, the IRA did the other" on matters in history which have nothing remotely to do with the IRA.

But I know, the poor, vilified, maligned, demonised unionists in the six counties. So sad, I think I'll go and have a pint

Mrs. MacGyver

PDN wrote: »

My understanding is that much of the intermarriage between Irish and native Americans was from the earlier immigration wave of Scots-Irish (primarily Presbyterians from Ulster) rather than the later wave of Catholic immigration.

Also most of the Irish involvement in atrocities against the native Americans can be attributed to the Scots-Irish (although it was a Sullivan who articulated the doctrine of 'Manifest Destiny' - that the white man had a divine destiny to conquer other peoples).

It is interesting that when the Cherokee tribe officially joined themselves with the Confederacy in the American Civil War, many of the Great Cherokee Council had Scots-Irish names. The Cherokees tended to appoint those with some white blood - indeed their chief, John Ross, was only one-eighth Cherokee and couldn't even speak the Cherokee language.

So we don't need to feel too guilty - blame it all on those Northern prods.

I am interested in the facts you put forward in relation to the relationship of the Scots-Irish to the tribe, however i did find your comment on Ulster protestants to be insulting. It's now a 'them vs us' thread.

PDN

Mrs. MacGyver wrote: »

I am interested in the facts you put forward in relation to the relationship of the Scots-Irish to the tribe, however i did find your comment on Ulster protestants to be insulting. It's now a 'them vs us' thread.

I apologise. I grew up in a staunch loyalist area in Northern Ireland, but have lived in County Louth for the last 12 years. It has been so liberating to get away from that stifling atmosphere where people were always so ready to get offended at one another. Now I'm so used to joking about these things with my friends that I forget some people actually take all that sectarian nonsense seriously. In future, if I post on the History & Heritage forum, I will remember to be very serious and PC.

brianthebard

McArmalite wrote: »

I started this thread to highlight the incredible genorosity and humanity of the Choctaw tribe and no doubt, the Native Americans in general. It's a pity someone has to come and try and turn it into a secterian mud slinging contest.

That's rich, to say the least.

McArmalite

brianthebard wrote: »

That's rich, to say the least.

I see your a Sligo man, does Shoot the Crows still have a great pint of Guinness ??

Only fighting fire with fire. This forum was a joke long before I ever joined it. Indeed, before I ever joined, ( I only joined boards.ie to access the Self Defense and Martial Arts board, I'm a Martial Arts nut first and foremost ) I sent a pm to the moderators asking them to stop some of the very abusful remarks to nationalists from the six counties - which was completely ignored ofcourse. Though I have been banned for using the word "plonker" while others have called me a "half wit" and a "stupid drunk" - not that I leave the PC angry or something or give a sh1te ( I'm a construction worker, I'm well used to it :rolleyes: ), and I know you should'nt critise the ref to his face, but it's typical of the joke that this forum is. I do'nt blame people for treating it like the joke it is.

There's two kinds of criticism - constructive and negative. I do'nt blame genuine people for saying McArm is a bit of a sh1te stirrer, I do'nt really, it's true. I can be a reasonable, civil fella as you can see from some of my posts, until the usual crowd start to trivalise and denegrate the injustices and suffering that the people of this country have been victims of for so, so long. But, and I mean this as constructive criticism, any thread in any way critical of british history is dragged into a cul de sac of " the IRA did this, the IRA did that, the IRA did the other " -when it's a discussion regarding an issue that the IRA is not remotely connected with whatsoever, but still it's ALLOWED to be dragged into a cul de sac. To quote a guy called Hagar who posted on the 09-01-2007, 07:14 ( long before i joined the History forum) regarding Fed Fratton and Vesp " I don't even know why you bother posting here, all you ever do is snipe at other peoples posts if there seems to any Irish Nationalist aspect to it of any sort. I would really love to know what part of our Hitory & Heritage actually interests you. What positive threads have you pair even started? " . Incidentally, I do'nt see Hagar and many others bothering to post - cann't blame them.

As I said, this forum was a joke long before I ever joined it, and will remain so until there is proper moderation of it. Positive criticism, nothing else. I suppose I'll be banned for a while now, but sure it has to be said anyway. But sure I'll be down in "Shoots" next weekend, hope the Guinness is as good as ever

DublinDes

McArmalite wrote: »

I see your a Sligo man, does Shoot the Crows still have a great pint of Guinness ??

Only fighting fire with fire. This forum was a joke long before I ever joined it. Indeed, before I ever joined, ( I only joined boards.ie to access the Self Defense and Martial Arts board, I'm a Martial Arts nut first and foremost ) I sent a pm to the moderators asking them to stop some of the very abusful remarks to nationalists from the six counties - which was completely ignored ofcourse. Though I have been banned for using the word "plonker" while others have called me a "half wit" and a "stupid drunk" - not that I leave the PC angry or something or give a sh1te ( I'm a construction worker, I'm well used to it :rolleyes: ), and I know you should'nt critise the ref to his face, but it's typical of the joke that this forum is. I do'nt blame people for treating it like the joke it is.

There's two kinds of criticism - constructive and negative. I do'nt blame genuine people for saying McArm is a bit of a sh1te stirrer, I do'nt really, it's true. I can be a reasonable, civil fella as you can see from some of my posts, until the usual crowd start to trivalise and denegrate the injustices and suffering that the people of this country have been victims of for so, so long. But, and I mean this as constructive criticism, any thread in any way critical of british history is dragged into a cul de sac of " the IRA did this, the IRA did that, the IRA did the other " -when it's a discussion regarding an issue that the IRA is not remotely connected with whatsoever, but still it's ALLOWED to be dragged into a cul de sac. To quote a guy called Hagar who posted on the 09-01-2007, 07:14 ( long before i joined the History forum) regarding Fed Fratton and Vesp " I don't even know why you bother posting here, all you ever do is snipe at other peoples posts if there seems to any Irish Nationalist aspect to it of any sort. I would really love to know what part of our Hitory & Heritage actually interests you. What positive threads have you pair even started? " . Incidentally, I do'nt see Hagar and many others bothering to post - cann't blame them.

As I said, this forum was a joke long before I ever joined it, and will remain so until there is proper moderation of it. Positive criticism, nothing else. I suppose I'll be banned for a while now, but sure it has to be said anyway. But sure I'll be down in "Shoots" next weekend, hope the Guinness is as good as ever

I do'nt like the west brits who post on this forum either, but since your so unhappy with these people why bother with the forum at all ?

r3nu4l

Sigh, this thread started off so well. We learned about the Choctaw tribe in primary school and it stuck with me so much that when Live Aid came around I donated £1 from my piggy bank on the basis that if strange people had donated to my ancestors when they had no real reason to then I should donate to strangers too...Well, I did only have about £1.50 in there so it seemed like a big donation at the time

Glad to see a Choktaw thread, sad to see yet another us and them thread.