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Dublin Bus: entitlement to transfer ticket??

  • 07-11-2007 2:04pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,799
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    Arising out of scenario going home last night, I was wondering if anyone could clarify for me:

    Waiting for a bus to on Kildare Street to Terenure last night and both a 15B and a 15 passed by full. (This was around 6pm). After waiting for a while a 74A came along and I got it as it goes reasonably close to Terenure Cross. However this got me to thinking that if the 74A had caught up with the 15 or 15B later on the route, say after Rathmines and now was only half full, can I ask the driver of the 74A for a transfer ticket to allow me board the 15/15B for no extra charge and continue on my journey??


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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,025 Ham'nd'egger
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    tallpaul wrote: »
    Arising out of scenario going home last night, I was wondering if anyone could clarify for me:

    Waiting for a bus to on Kildare Street to Terenure last night and both a 15B and a 15 passed by full. (This was around 6pm). After waiting for a while a 74A came along and I got it as it goes reasonably close to Terenure Cross. However this got me to thinking that if the 74A had caught up with the 15 or 15B later on the route, say after Rathmines and now was only half full, can I ask the driver of the 74A for a transfer ticket to allow me board the 15/15B for no extra charge and continue on my journey??

    Why would you think that this is ok, seriously?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 538 SickCert
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    Transfer tickets died with the old ticket machines, all tickets now state not transferable.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,279 bk
    Mod ✭✭✭✭


    Hamndegger wrote: »
    Why would you think that this is ok, seriously?

    Because many if not most other countries have this ability.

    My recent trip to Boston jumps to mind, you could ask the driver for a transfer ticket and use it on another bus during a 90 minute period.

    Basically it is the idea that you are purchasing a ticket for travel in a particular zone via any means of public transport, versus DB's very small minded system that a ticket is simply for a single point to point trip.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,025 Ham'nd'egger
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    bk wrote: »
    Because many if not most other countries have this ability.

    My recent trip to Boston jumps to mind, you could ask the driver for a transfer ticket and use it on another bus during a 90 minute period.

    Basically it is the idea that you are purchasing a ticket for travel in a particular zone via any means of public transport, versus DB's very small minded system that a ticket is simply for a single point to point trip.

    OP got on one bus as a preferred bus was full and deciced to get on another when he reckoned there was a seat on the first bus. That is two journeys and not one. I just asked why they would assume that they can do it on Dublin Bus, can you?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,315 ballooba
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    Poor souls. Don't know how a proper transport system works. Get out (of the country) more.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,084 Stark
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    bk wrote: »
    Because many if not most other countries have this ability.

    My recent trip to Boston jumps to mind, you could ask the driver for a transfer ticket and use it on another bus during a 90 minute period.

    Basically it is the idea that you are purchasing a ticket for travel in a particular zone via any means of public transport, versus DB's very small minded system that a ticket is simply for a single point to point trip.

    You can buy "Travel 90" bus tickets that let you travel on a number of buses, provided the last journey starts within 90 mins of the first journey. They cost €1.70 each so they're cheaper for long single journeys as well.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 461 markf909
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    Hamndegger wrote: »
    OP got on one bus as a preferred bus was full and deciced to get on another when he reckoned there was a seat on the first bus. That is two journeys and not one. I just asked why they would assume that they can do it on Dublin Bus, can you?

    In most civilised cities, the transit operator does not care how many journeys are made, the ticketing allows multiple transfers across the modes.

    The travel 90 offers this and in my opinion should be the default dublin bus ticket. However it is far too useful and user friendly for that to happen.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,858 paulm17781
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    It's a shame no city is capable of having some form of integrated ticketing. Clearly a concept that baffles scientist all over the world. :rolleyes:

    As Mark said, the 90 minutes validity should be the norm but that makes too much sense.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,858 paulm17781
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    Hamndegger wrote: »
    OP got on one bus as a preferred bus was full and deciced to get on another when he reckoned there was a seat on the first bus. That is two journeys and not one. I just asked why they would assume that they can do it on Dublin Bus, can you?

    No but you can in most places. It encourages use of public transport, a concept lost by the likes of DB.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 911 steve-o
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    Hamndegger wrote: »
    That is two journeys and not one
    Ah, so the OP went home twice. Now I get it.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,219 Calina
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    Hamndegger wrote: »
    OP got on one bus as a preferred bus was full and deciced to get on another when he reckoned there was a seat on the first bus. That is two journeys and not one. I just asked why they would assume that they can do it on Dublin Bus, can you?

    Actually, I disagree with this. In most civilised countries it is possible to buy a single ticket valid for a specific time for one journey across transport modes. IIRC in Brussels it was like 60 minutes from validation. He was not looking for two journeys, he was looking for the quickest way home. Public transport is never going to work in this city until people realise that this should be its objective - moving people quickly and efficiently according to their needs, not the operators' needs. It's not like he was getting a ticket from the city centre to Santry, hanging around a shopping centre there for 15 minutes and then deciding, ah dang it all to hell, I'll grab a bus over to Clontarf now.

    Ticketing on public transport in Dublin is in my view overly complex and our inability to get some sort of integrated ticketing going is just a sad reflection of this.

    I suspect the issue might not be purely Dublin Bus related but DoT as they seem to frequently get accused of the requisite lack of vision. Either way, we need to reconsider whether it is short term finances are important which says status quo stays or long term future and viability of the city area is important which says practical considerations for transport users gets a look in.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 538 SickCert
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    Actually, I disagree with this. In most civilised countries it is possible to buy a single ticket valid for a specific time for one journey across transport modes. IIRC in Brussels it was like 60 minutes from validation.

    We have the 90 min ticket as stated above.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,858 paulm17781
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    SickCert wrote: »
    We have the 90 min ticket as stated above.

    which can not be purchased on a bus and must be purchased in advance and quite frequently can work out more expensive than a single ticket.

    That's the EXACT same as integrated ticketing. :rolleyes:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 461 markf909
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    SickCert wrote: »
    We have the 90 min ticket as stated above.

    Impossible to buy on board the bus though.
    Will the new DB smartcard be clever enough to allow 2 or more trips within 90mins to be charged at a max of 1.70?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,025 Ham'nd'egger
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    paulm17781 wrote: »
    No but you can in most places. It encourages use of public transport, a concept lost by the likes of DB.

    I have used 10 Journey tickets, 2 Easy tickets, Transfer 90, One Day Bus, One Day Bus+Rail, Weekly and Monthly bus tickets before. I don't have the use to warrant an annual ticket so have not ever purchased same. All of these tickets promote multi use and flexibility of buses and are issued (Or have been) by Dublin Bus and CIE. I assume you are familiar of these? :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,219 Calina
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    SickCert wrote: »
    We have the 90 min ticket as stated above.

    But it is not the same thing. The default single ticket in Brussels, Frankfurt and Paris is valid for one hour on all transport modes. This is the ticket you buy in the bus. The 90minute is not the default single ticket here.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,025 Ham'nd'egger
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    steve-o wrote: »
    Ah, so the OP went home twice. Now I get it.

    No, I just said he wanted to ride on two buses and not pay for it. :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 538 SickCert
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    What i read of it is, you buy a ticket for to travel on one bus BUT want it to cover a second bus journey.
    If your want this freedom get a rambler ticket.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,357 Beano
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    SickCert wrote: »
    ..., all tickets now state not transferable.

    Doesnt that mean that you cannot give the ticket to somebody else?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 538 SickCert
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    Beano wrote: »
    Doesnt that mean that you cannot give the ticket to somebody else?

    NO it means you cannot get caught giving the ticket to somebody else?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 461 markf909
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    SickCert wrote: »
    What i read of it is, you buy a ticket for to travel on one bus BUT want it to cover a second bus journey.

    No he wants to get home using public transport in the quickest manner.
    The number of modes used within a timeframe once a ticket is bought shouldn't matter.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 538 SickCert
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    The number of modes used within a timeframe once a ticket is bought shouldn't matter.

    But he bought a single ticket with the knowledge it was a single ticket for one bus.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,858 paulm17781
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    Hamndegger wrote: »
    I have used 10 Journey tickets, 2 Easy tickets, Transfer 90, One Day Bus, One Day Bus+Rail, Weekly and Monthly bus tickets before. I don't have the use to warrant an annual ticket so have not ever purchased same. All of these tickets promote multi use and flexibility of buses and are issued (Or have been) by Dublin Bus and CIE. I assume you are familiar of these? :)

    Explain to me how this helps someone who needs to get somewhere where two bus journeys would be better (a connection at some point) when they can only afford one? What you have suggested is in no way beneficial to the casual bus user. Weekly and Monthly bus tickets are more expensive for me than paying cash. What you have listed above is how the public are ripped off everyday by the likes of CIE / RPA. I blame the government mostly but if DB really wanted to make all tickets last a default of 90 minutes, they could.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,858 paulm17781
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    SickCert wrote: »
    But he bought a single ticket with the knowledge it was a single ticket for one bus.

    His point is that he should be able to use it on multiple journeys, like most cities allow. It's not always convenient to carry a few spare 90 minute bus tickets or is this lost on you too?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 538 SickCert
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    It's not always convenient to carry a few spare 90 minute bus tickets or is this lost on you too?

    Nothings lost on me. One ticket, one trip thats what we offer.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,858 paulm17781
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    SickCert wrote: »
    Nothings lost on me. One ticket, one trip thats what we offer.

    And you are saying this is the best solution?
    SickCert wrote: »
    What i read of it is, you buy a ticket for to travel on one bus BUT want it to cover a second bus journey.
    If your want this freedom get a rambler ticket.

    You genuinely agree with this don't you? Is the concept of customer service that lost on you?

    It would be easier for the public, you know the people who pay for Dublin bus, if bus tickets cost 1.70 (irrespective) and were valid for 90 minutes rather than a multitude of tickets that the public forget about. Are you honestly saying the current mess is better than the ability to buy a ticket on a bus that is valid on all buses for 90 minutes?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,219 Calina
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    SickCert wrote: »
    Nothings lost on me. One ticket, one trip thats what we offer.

    I understand that this is what DB offers. What I am suggesting that with a public transport remit, you could consider changing what you offer. Microsoft do it all the time.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,315 ballooba
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    What happened the one euro standard fare proposed by Labour?

    /me runs for cover.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 538 SickCert
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    paulm17781 wrote: »
    And you are saying this is the best solution?



    You genuinely agree with this don't you? Is the concept of customer service that lost on you?

    It would be easier for the public, you know the people who pay for Dublin bus, if bus tickets cost 1.70 (irrespective) and were valid for 90 minutes rather than a multitude of tickets that the public forget about. Are you honestly saying the current mess is better than the ability to buy a ticket on a bus that is valid on all buses for 90 minutes?

    I dont see DB offering any more driver cash transactions as they are trying to speed up the time wasted at stops.
    I cant speak for the types of ticket you would like to see, just what the company offer which is lost on yee.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 538 SickCert
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    Calina wrote: »
    I understand that this is what DB offers. What I am suggesting that with a public transport remit, you could consider changing what you offer. Microsoft do it all the time.

    Im on the level of Driver, i cant change what we offer. We can talk it all night but nothing will change.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 538 SickCert
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    ballooba wrote: »
    What happened the one euro standard fare proposed by Labour?

    /me runs for cover.

    Whos in power!:eek:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,219 Calina
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    SickCert wrote: »
    I dont see DB offering any more driver cash transactions as they are trying to speed up the time wasted at stops.
    I cant speak for the types of ticket you would like to see, just what the company offer which is lost on yee.

    Realistically this would reduce the number of cash transactions.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 538 SickCert
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    Calina wrote: »
    Realistically this would reduce the number of cash transactions.

    No paulm17781 is suggesting buying the Transfer 90 ticket directly from the driver instead of the shops, which i understand needs prior queuing to purchase on the passengers behalf.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,219 Calina
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    And I am suggesting that the default single ticket as bought by thousands of people on a Dublin Bus every day should work like a transfer 90 because currently where people buy two tickets they will only need to buy one if this is done, ergo, the number of cash transactions should fall.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 538 SickCert
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    Its a great idea, just not on the cards anytime soon. The new ticket machine we use have huge abilities but only a small amount is used in every day ticket issuing.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 911 steve-o
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    Hamndegger wrote: »
    No, I just said he wanted to ride on two buses and not pay for it. :)
    That's certainly the Dublin Bus view. But the Dublin Bus definition of a journey (with which you seem to agree) has nothing to do with how a customer sees it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,390 markpb
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    In Belfast you can buy an all day ticket on board on any bus. The TGX (same ticket machine as DB) prints the normal receipt but it prints the date in big letters. Every time you board the bus after that, you show the ticket to the driver. Obviously it's not ideal because it slows down boarding slightly (selling a pre-dated magstripe card would be much more preferable) but it shows it can be done simply and with the same hardware we have.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,799 Doodah7
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    Ahem.

    Just to clarify, both the 74A and the 15's share the exact same route for most of the route to Terenure Cross. However I was unable to get on my preferred route as both buses were full. I was suggesting that logically, as I was unable to get on the buses I wanted as they didn't stop, I would get on another bus going in the same direction and then switch buses to continue my journey.

    I know that in DB's eyes this is two journeys on two buses but it is in fact only really one as I was only going in one direction and along a predominantly identical route...

    Obviously having buses running on time, having sufficient buses at peak time to cater for demand and having flexibility for customers to make the most efficient journey to their destination does not compute as far as DB is concerned...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,316 KC61
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    It is interesting that this is not allowed in London, where you would also have to pay for each journey on your oyster card (up to a maximum cost of the 50p less than the cost of a 1-day travelcard).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,107 John R
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    This topic has been discussed here umpteen times before.

    Yes, the fare system in Dublin is a mess but the cash fares are set in stone by central government, every attempt by DB to try and simplify them has been met with politically motivated interference.

    Offering extra tickets on-board would seriously increase dwell times as a small number of passengers will insist on having all their options laid forth by the bus driver while they then and there decide their daily plan.

    Obviously there are better ways to organise the tickets, IMO there should be one flat cash fare for all passengers Adult and Child (to keep it simple and discourage cash fares it should be €2) on offer from the driver. All other fares should be dealt with by smart card and pre-bought card tickets.

    Single fares with the smart card should be heavily discounted compared to the cash fare and there should be further discounts for people using pre-pay multiple times, a free or discounted transfer within a certain time period and a daily cap equal to the price of a one-day ticket.

    Increasing the range of tickets on offer from the driver to save occasional users (such as the OP) a few pence now and then is not a good idea if it will further slow down the speed of the service.


    The fact is that if they were not being blocked by the politicians DB would already have introduced a simple pre-pay card for bus only which could very easily be used to offer many of the options people want, albeit without the ability to waste everyone's time by throwing the weeks accumalation of 2c coins in the farebox.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,858 paulm17781
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    SickCert wrote: »
    No paulm17781 is suggesting buying the Transfer 90 ticket directly from the driver instead of the shops, which i understand needs prior queuing to purchase on the passengers behalf.

    Are you simple or ignorant, seriously? What I am suggesting, is that DB should change it's ticket type. Let's say tomorrow they decided to change (are you with me so far?) the type of ticket they sell on buses. No more "single journey" ripping of the people who pay for you. Instead they announce "All tickets are now valid from 90 minutes after purchase on all buses" (Comprehend?)

    Are you so blind to customer service that you do not think this would be a better hypothetical situation than the one we have now?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,502 chris85
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    SickCert wrote: »
    What i read of it is, you buy a ticket for to travel on one bus BUT want it to cover a second bus journey.
    If your want this freedom get a rambler ticket.

    I think most you are missing the point.

    Every other country Ive been to does not charge per bus journey but instead by the full journey. You pay for the ticket that will get you to the final destination and thats that.

    If you are going on a train somewhere and there is no direct train, you will do a transfer at some station. Then you will get on another train to your final destination. But you will pay at the first station for the whole journey which is not dependant on how many trains you get. For instance i have often gone from Maynooth to Howth on the trains. This is two trains but i pay in maynooth for the whole journey.

    Why should this be any different for bus journeys. The reason why is because we are happy to pay it. And by the sound of it, most of you havent got a clue how much we are being ripped off compared to other countries


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 538 SickCert
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    paulm17781 wrote: »
    Are you simple or ignorant, seriously? What I am suggesting, is that DB should change it's ticket type. Let's say tomorrow they decided to change (are you with me so far?) the type of ticket they sell on buses. No more "single journey" ripping of the people who pay for you. Instead they announce "All tickets are now valid from 90 minutes after purchase on all buses" (Comprehend?)

    Are you so blind to customer service that you do not think this would be a better hypothetical situation than the one we have now?

    No but you are, i simply said pre-paid tickets require the customer to go to a shop.
    Now a few of us here with ticket machine knowledge has also said the machine we have can do the job with a little software tweek - BUT db dont want to!
    (Comprehend)? So stop picking a fight and deal with the topic.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 538 SickCert
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    chris85 wrote: »
    I think most you are missing the point.

    Every other country Ive been to does not charge per bus journey but instead by the full journey. You pay for the ticket that will get you to the final destination and thats that.

    If you are going on a train somewhere and there is no direct train, you will do a transfer at some station. Then you will get on another train to your final destination. But you will pay at the first station for the whole journey which is not dependant on how many trains you get. For instance i have often gone from Maynooth to Howth on the trains. This is two trains but i pay in maynooth for the whole journey.

    Why should this be any different for bus journeys. The reason why is because we are happy to pay it. And by the sound of it, most of you havent got a clue how much we are being ripped off compared to other countries

    Not missing the point, i know what your saying.
    But DB seem not to want to offer it. There is a button on the machine 'Alternative tickets' which offers a shopper fare and an excess ticket! What we could offer in extensive, but its just left blank.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,858 paulm17781
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    SickCert wrote: »
    No but you are, i simply said pre-paid tickets require the customer to go to a shop.
    Now a few of us here with ticket machine knowledge has also said the machine we have can do the job with a little software tweek - BUT db dont want to!
    (Comprehend)? So stop picking a fight and deal with the topic.

    Picking a fight? All I said was they should offer all tickets as standard as valid 90 minutes instead of expecting people to pick it up at a shop. You are the one who refused to agree that this was good, instead chose to point out "they don't do that." Which was the whole point.
    SickCert wrote: »
    Now a few of us here with ticket machine knowledge has also said the machine we have can do the job with a little software tweek - BUT db dont want to!

    It's nothing to do with "ticket machine knowledge" (That one really got me :rolleyes:) my point and everyone else's (that you seemed not to understand) is that DB could provide a better service than they are. What part of this have you misunderstood until today?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,219 Calina
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    SickCert and paulm17781, cool it or I will ban the pair of you for narking at each other.

    It is entirely possible to have a debate without a) starting to bite at each other or b) resorting to backseat modding.

    _________________________________________

    In summary, the view would appear to be that what the OP wants is

    a) technically possible with DB equipment;
    b) done in most other civilised cities in Europe outside the English speaking world; and
    c) unlikely to be introduced any time soon because of the moribund nature of either DB or the DoT or because it is incompatible with current busienss desires on the part of DB depending on which post you read.

    Have I missed something?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 538 SickCert
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    SickCert and paulm17781, cool it or I will ban the pair of you for narking at each other.

    I havent thrown any insults yet but choose to walk away of my own accord.

    Please get decent mods that can spell.
    narking


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,219 Calina
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    SickCert wrote: »
    Not missing the point, i know what your saying.
    But DB seem not to want to offer it. There is a button on the machine 'Alternative tickets' which offers a shopper fare and an excess ticket! What we could offer in extensive, but its just left blank.

    You are missing a key issue. We don't need things to be extensive, we need them to be user-friendly. Just extending the range of tickets would exacerbate the current problem where it is already a mess.

    We are not looking for an "alternative". We want the default to work the same way as a travel90 does. There is nothing alternative about a default single journey.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,219 Calina
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    SickCert wrote: »
    I havent thrown any insults yet but choose to walk away of my own accord.

    Please get decent mods that can spell.

    My apologies for using Australian slang, caused, no doubt, by globalisation in the entertainment industry. You, on the other hand, have two grammatical errors in the above post namely "havent" and "decent mods that can spell". If you're going to insult me about my command of English, it would be worth ensuring that in that post you are 100% accurate both in terms of spelling and grammar.

    The point, however, still stands. The two of you are doing the internet equivalent of yapping at each other's ankles if it makes you feel better and it's not an edifying sight in the thread.

    ___________________________

    Back on topic, is there any possibility that when we eventually get some form of integrated ticketing across all service providers in the city that we won't be discussing this merely in respect of Dublin Bus journeys, but also of journeys including transits via Dart and Luas and whoever else is involved? Otherwise, I still see it as being overly limited and weighted in favour of the service suppliers rather than the transport users.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,502 chris85
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    Calina wrote: »
    You are missing a key issue. We don't need things to be extensive, we need them to be user-friendly. Just extending the range of tickets would exacerbate the current problem where it is already a mess.

    We are not looking for an "alternative". We want the default to work the same way as a travel90 does. There is nothing alternative about a default single journey.

    Totally agree, the rail system has got it, so does the luas (altough very small network).

    I think dublin bus wont bring it in because they may lose money, and they are already losing money every year.

    But the integrated ticketing system such as a standard 90 minute ticket may bring more people on public transport.

    Also to note that the ticketing system should be integrated with other modes of transport as other countries have but i think that is light years away by dublin bus standards.


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