WARNING: A COMPLETE NON-issue with Paddy Power S/W

sixpac911

$2500 NL freezout bout half way through

BB 300
SB 150
No antes

1-6 fold

Button(Me) ~ 4500 chips (QQ)
SB ~ 5500 chips (Ad6d)
BB ~ 1700 chips (AA)


Button raises to 1200
SB calls
BB pushes all in

PROBLEM
I am next to move and I want SB out of pot BUT PPP software presents me with a graphical button to CALL the 500 raise with NO option to go OTT and Chase out SB.
I therefore reluctantly and scratching my head call the 500

SB calls (easy call at that point)

Flop comes 4h5s3s

I push my last 2500 chips in (which I wanted to do preflop but could not)
SB calls
Turn 10s
River 7d

SB knocks out Button and BB with lucky straight

I have seen this issue three times in past few months where a re-raise option is suddenly not allowed only allowing call.

I reported it and PPP told me it did not happen.

WTF??? What can I do with that??? I can paste in the conversation with PPP manager for review. It's long and bit heated

eggie

under raise, you can only call. If the big blind double the last bet you could then raise again.

sixpac911

Really??? I asked the manager if there was a rule I was not aware of and he said NO that I would have been able to go OTT and that it is not true that I could not.

So there is such a thing in NL as an under raise? Never heard of that. Do you have any links where i can read about under raise in NL? I though I have gone OTT in same situation many times b4

sixpac911

BTW thanks for that eggie. BTW, was my play bad?

eggie

you can raise here with any 2 cards. I would have raised more to either put the short stack all in or fold him out, also gives the bigger stack a tougher decision.

The plus point would be the fact that its folded to you on the button and your range could be quite wide, therefore you will get called or re-raised more often as they may think you stealing. Obviously here you'll get repopped by AA, but he would also repop you with weaker holdings on occasions.

UL.

EDIT: You played it fine, depends on table dynamics and the players in question. Hindsight on this particular hand may give reason for a bigger pre flop raise to fold the SB out, then again if he is one of those players who never folds an ace pre it makes more sense to entice him to put as much of his stack in pre-flop as possible when you are a big favourite.

jhegarty

yep , thats an under raise.. all fairly normal...

pokerkingsni

jhegarty wrote: »

yep , thats an under raise.. all fairly normal...

For those of us not familiar with the under raise could you explain?

Cheers.

jhegarty

if someone doesn't have enough chips to make a proper raise , but is going all in then it doesn't reopen the betting.... the rest of the players can only call...

edit:
more complete answer here :http://www.vcpoker.com/content/Glossary/UnderRaise.html

pokerkingsni

jhegarty wrote: »

if someone doesn't have enough chips to make a proper raise , but is going all in then it doesn't reopen the betting.... the rest of the players can only call...

edit:
more complete answer here :http://www.vcpoker.com/content/Glossary/UnderRaise.html

Ta.

cooker3

You really should look up the rules before making accusations against a company like you did.

eggie

Its baffling that a manager at the site in question could not explain a simple rule like this at first point of contact.

Gholimoli

lol,
Aaron you mad thing you ,this is a classic.

that's an under raise dude which means you can only call.

you played the hand fine.

White Knight

No offense intended to the OP but it was not easy to understand your explanation of events (obviously because you had no knowledge of the rule) and it may have come across that way to them too.

But at least you know for future anyway

mdwexford

lmao

Ste05

Thread title changed to something more in lines with what the thread is about following a Reported Post. I've deleted some posts joking that PPP should sue the OP for defamation, cos it's not funny, please use the Report Post function instead of posting in thread if you have a problem with a post.

OP,

This is completely standard and if the Software actually DID allow you to re-raise then maybe you could have posted something with your original title.

As has been explained this is an under-raise and is normal.

Ste05

AdMMM

I was playing in the same tournament. It crashed during that level and from what I can see, we got our buyins + a little extra back.

Ollieboy

Ste05 wrote: »

Thread title changed to something more in lines with what the thread is about following a Reported Post. I've deleted some posts joking that PPP should sue the OP for defamation, cos it's not funny, please use the Report Post function instead of posting in thread if you have a problem with a post.

OP,

This is completely standard and if the Software actually DID allow you to re-raise then maybe you could have posted something with your original title.

As has been explained this is an under-raise and is normal.

Ste05

you remove a post for what reason? I question that removal as their's no reason for it, unless its the lack of humour on this forum.

5starpool

Ollieboy wrote: »

you remove a post for what reason? I question that removal as their's no reason for it, unless its the lack of humour on this forum.

You are welcome to start a feedback thread on it Ollie if you like, but a post, even in jest that mentions suing for defamation isn't going to be a very popular one given the current issues.

Ste05

5starpool wrote: »

You are welcome to start a feedback thread on it Ollie if you like, but a post, even in jest that mentions suing for defamation isn't going to be a very popular one given the current issues.

Yup, pretty much.

As 5starpool says, feel free to start a feedback thread if you think it necessary.

Ollieboy

Ste05 wrote: »

Yup, pretty much.

As 5starpool says, feel free to start a feedback thread if you think it necessary.

I hope we all have better things to do with our time than start a feedback thread. Anyway, no offence was meant.

Ste05

Ollieboy wrote: »

I hope we all have better things to do with our time than start a feedback thread. Anyway, no offence was meant.

None taken. It's good to get feedback on decisions.

Fatboydim

Just to clarify the rule for the OP - The under raise rule only applies to the players who have already acted. Therefore a player who is yet to act could have re-raised any amount.

Mellor

Fatboydim wrote: »

Just to clarify the rule for the OP - The under raise rule only applies to the players who have already acted. Therefore a player who is yet to act could have re-raised any amount.

In case someone pops up with a why,
This is because the original bet or raise (before the under raise) opens the betting to players all other players.So players that are yet to act on this bet are able to raise when there was an under raise inbetween, as are essentially raising the original bet or raise.

sixpac911

Absolutely !! That is why I raised the issue with PPP manager first. I have been playing a good while now and with reasonable success over time on $5 buyin level. But although I had seen this before I have never read about it in any of my books. I did not know the rule existed but it does make sense nonetheless !! The thing is PPP analysed the hand and told me that I was wrong and that I did have the option to reraise. That is what set me off !! Being accused of lying. I also DID ask them if their was a rule I was not aware of and they ignored that question only saying that I could have re-raised from their analysis

sixpac911

OK here is my conversation with manager (funny in hindsight lol, ty for explanations btw):

welcome to paddypowerpoker! You can also check out the p4p shop, please continue riffling your chips a host will be with you as soon as possible...
Colum: Hi, welcome to Paddy Power Poker. How can I help?
MeetJoeBlak: there is a $5 mtt ongoing which I have just been knocked out of
MeetJoeBlak: I want to know why I could not re-raise an all in preflop with one player behind me
MeetJoeBlak: it only allowed me to call the all in which obviously invited the player behind me with a mediocre hand to call and get lucky
MeetJoeBlak: I want to know if there is something wrong with the s/w or a NL rule I am not aware of
Colum: Do you have the hand number please?/
MeetJoeBlak: how do I get it??
Colum: Do you see where it says My Poker in the main lobby?
MeetJoeBlak: yep
MeetJoeBlak: in there
Colum: Go there and select Tournament History.
MeetJoeBlak: I was about my third last hand in the 2500 freezout
Colum: I really need the hand number please.
MeetJoeBlak: 1174726213
Colum: Ok one sec
MeetJoeBlak: ty
MeetJoeBlak: basically I did not want legion in the hand and I could not re-raise the shortstack's push preflop
MeetJoeBlak: this meant my call to jeremi's all in made odds favourable for legion111 to call with his a6s
MeetJoeBlak: cost me 2500 chips
MeetJoeBlak: and the game
Colum: One moment please
MeetJoeBlak: k :-)
Colum: Are you sure that this is the correct hand number?
MeetJoeBlak: it appears to be
MeetJoeBlak: what to you see for that?
MeetJoeBlak: aa versus qq versus a6s
Colum: Pocket queens is that correct?
MeetJoeBlak: yes
MeetJoeBlak: I raised from early
MeetJoeBlak: ss went over the top and all in with aa
MeetJoeBlak: I could only call that for some strange reason when I wanted to go ott
MeetJoeBlak: I called and a6s called too and caught the straight
MeetJoeBlak: if I has gone ott he should have folded
MeetJoeBlak: may not have of course lol
Colum: Ok I have reviewed the hand and can see that you were able to raise and even go all -in, therefore I can find no evidence to suggest that there was any type of issue with the software.
MeetJoeBlak: OK I can tell you straight up that you are not correct
MeetJoeBlak: It gave me a button to call with no option to put more chips in the pot
MeetJoeBlak: that is why I am on here
MeetJoeBlak: How can I capture that? Screenshot every hand?
MeetJoeBlak: I would suggest to you that 60% of players on here would not even report such a blip as they would not know the difference. But I have seen this problem about three times now and fortunately this is the first time it cost me
Colum: Im afraid to say that our records say differently you raised 1,200 preflop with 2 callers, one player went all in for 1,700 you and player Legion111 both called the extra 500, you then went All-in on the flop for 2,675.
MeetJoeBlak: I called preflop BECAUSE I had no option to re-raise
MeetJoeBlak: This was the softwares fault
MeetJoeBlak: please take a record of this conversation because I will be raising it on the poker forums
Colum: Im afraid that I have double checked this with our technical department and they have informed me of no iregularities during the hand in question.
MeetJoeBlak: They are wrong
Colum: All correspondence is recorded.
MeetJoeBlak: you need to be careful about that because I WILL bring this issue further. Mostly because if your auditors cannot see it then there is a serious issue there
MeetJoeBlak: I am 1000% right here.
MeetJoeBlak: I actually questioned myself whether it was a limit table after that happened i was so surprised
MeetJoeBlak: but I filter to NL only
Colum: I am afraid that there is very little that we can do as our records clearly show that there was no fault during the hand in question.
MeetJoeBlak: I understand that
MeetJoeBlak: however that is an even bigger issue, that your auditors cannot see what happened. Bigger than the problem itself and needs to be raised !!!
MeetJoeBlak: This means that I cannot trust the software. It also means I need to make sure that others are aware that there is a blip and that auditing cannot cover the customer as it does not pick up that blip
Colum: All of our tables are monitored 24 hours a day by an independant monitoring company. I can assure you that there was no issue in relation to our software.
MeetJoeBlak: Well there WAS
MeetJoeBlak: I am TELLING you what happened
MeetJoeBlak: this is a disgrace
MeetJoeBlak: I would like you to raise this with you manager please. I am not annoyed with you of course. I am VERY concerned that your monitoring company cannot pick up a problem like this.
MeetJoeBlak: You are in effect calling me a liar which I am not.
Colum: I can assure you that I have reviewed the hand aswell as other members of staff and we can find no issue during the hand in question.
MeetJoeBlak: I dont doubt that you are telling the truth
MeetJoeBlak: the problem is that I also am
MeetJoeBlak: and after Jerem11 pushed to I had about 2500 more chips to put in hand but was presented with a "graphical button" to call with NO option to push my chips in at that point. This did not occur after the flop when I pushed but it was too late then
MeetJoeBlak: You really do need to raise this colum. I have witnessed this issue three times in the past couple of months. When I go to boards.ie where all the poker heads chat it will create a very serious issue where others are likely to mention their experiences
MeetJoeBlak: at that point PPP could loose credibility. I dont want that to go on as PPP is a very good site imo
MeetJoeBlak: normally when you have extra chips the slider bar is still there with a chance to re-raise. on that moment preflop my slider was not visible and I got a button with an option to click it to match the all in. NO other option
Colum: Im afraid that there is very little that we can do as our records show no evidence of any technical issue. If you wish to log a complaint you can contact us Mon - Fri 10am - 6pm.
MeetJoeBlak: I do wish to. But I work during those hours. What is the email address for this?
Colum: Poker@Paddypower.com
MeetJoeBlak: ty and take care. Sorry for the hassle colum. I understand you can do little about it when your monitoring s/w cannot catch the issue. It will be a very difficult bug to track down I think. But it needs to be reported. Thanks for your help to date


$2500 NL freezout bout half way through

BB 300
SB 150
No antes

1-6 fold

Button(Me) ~ 4500 chips (QQ)
SB ~ 5500 chips (Ad6d)
BB ~ 1700 chips (AA)


Button raises to 1200
SB calls
BB pushes all in

PROBLEM
I am next to move and I want SB out of pot BUT PPP software presents me with a graphical button to CALL the 500 raise with NO option to go OTT and Chase out SB.
I therefore reluctantly and scratching my head call the 500

SB calls (easy call at that point)

Flop comes 4h5s3s

I push my last 2500 chips in (which I wanted to do preflop but could not)
SB calls
Turn 10s
River 7d

SB knocks out Button and BB with lucky straight

I have seen this issue three times in past few months where a re-raise option is suddenly not allowed only allowing call.

I reported it and PPP told me it did not happen.

WTF??? What can I do with that??? I can paste in the conversation with PPP manager for review. It's long and bit heated

sixpac911

one last thing on this, I had played very tight to that point and SB should have recognised this. I also showed no signs of weakness up to that point.I think his a6s call was a little loose

Ste05

Well it looks like you got a bit of a moron there. I can't believe he didn't pick it up immediately. Although possibly he only deals with technical queries and doesn't know the ins and outs of the finer rules of Poker??

At least you carried out your threat to continue the issue and for that I commend you. If you PM PPP-Pit Boss on here about it she might be able to help you out, to see where the issue stems from, that seems like pretty dodgy support.

Mellor

Ste05 wrote: »

At least you carried out your threat to continue the issue and for that I commend you. If you PM PPP-Pit Boss on here about it she might be able to help you out, to see where the issue stems from, that seems like pretty dodgy support.

Did you forget that there was no issue with the hand?

Anyway sixpac, I think the support guy misunderstood you, it wasn't 100% clear at first that you meant that you couldn't go all-in "pre-flop". As he said something about "our records show you did go all-in" [on the flop]

Ste05

Mellor wrote: »

Did you forget that there was no issue with the hand?

Anyway sixpac, I think the support guy misunderstood you, it wasn't 100% clear at first that you meant that you couldn't go all-in "pre-flop". As he said something about "our records show you did go all-in" [on the flop]

The issue I was referring to was the poor support and the fact that the "manager" was clueless and couldn't point out the under-raise rule to the OP. It also appears from reading the logs that he consulted with his colleagues and they also didn't have a notion. To me, that's an issue.

It certainly could be a misunderstanding (and more than likely it was) but they had the hand history and the OP wasn't that unclear in the chat.