Fastest/most poweful cars on the open market

construct06

what cars on the open market are the fastest/most poweful...

i know fastest/most poweful are not the same, but i just want to get a feel for why people, especially 'boy racers' go for imprezas and civics. what bhp are these and how much more powerful than ordinary cars are they?...

Pete4779

I don't have a civic or an evo or one of those cars, but knowing people that do there are many people who buy them to do modifications and make the car a sort of personal project - to have something that is unique and didn't just role off an assembly line.

The type of modifications show what interests the person with car - power modifcations like an upgraded exhaust, advanced turbos or adjusting the turbo pressure with electronics to get improved performance. For others they may prefer cosmetic improvements - not necesserily trying to make th car look fast, but better than stock and there are competitions for this type of thing.

Some people like to buy a home audio system from Curry's. Others prefer component. It's not about how loud the component system is.

Plug

Imbrezes are about 280-290HP and civics vary about 80HP up to 180HP probly.
The civics are nothing special at all, they just do my head in:rolleyes: Imprezas are fast cars, 4 wheel drive and fairly big. They would be maybe 160HP more than your avarege car.

Blitzkrieger

Please tell me everything about cars.......

construct06

so maybe we could do list of cars speed/bhp...

would be interesting for me to get a feel for the cars available out there.

1. Subaru Impreza - 290 bhp
2. Subaru Forester - 120 bhp (turbo - 170 bhp)
3.....

Stephen

You'd want to be more detailed than that, given that they have a wide range of engines. i.e. the 1.6 impreza ain't going to be making 290bhp

construct06

ok, point taken...

if anyone filling in list, put in model etc...

junkyard

My E39 M5 has 400bhp and my Audi S8 has 384bhp as far as I know. Personally I'd prefer a powerful car than just a fast one, a lot of the fast ones are tuned to within an inch of their lives and soon run out of steam whereas a powerful car won't even break a sweat. I remember racing a Honda Type R with my M5 in the good old days when you could race and the guy pushed his car so hard that he actually blew his engine. I'll admit it was fast but it didn't last.:)

chris85

Toyota Altezza is a nice 2.0 litre and puts out about 255 bhp, love the toyotas as well, great cars

Michael G

construct06 wrote: »

2. Subaru Forester - 120 bhp (turbo - 170 bhp)3.....

A beautiful car (the turbo), the best I ever had, and three years later I still regret selling it.

Matt Simis

construct06 wrote: »

so maybe we could do list of cars speed/bhp...

would be interesting for me to get a feel for the cars available out there.

1. Subaru Impreza - 290 bhp
2. Subaru Forester - 120 bhp (turbo - 170 bhp)
3.....

Should probably list torque (and explain it) then too. Torque is what pulls you and your car from a standstill, under acceleration etc. Old mantra is "buy BHP, drive torque"..

Andrewf20

I could never see the major attraction for massively powerful cars in Ireland unless you are into track days in a big way.I dont think we have the space or need to use major power a lot of the time. 160bhp per ton would do me fine.

In terms of the common powerful motors out there heres a few:

STI Impreza - 276bhp
Lancer Evo - 276bhp
E46 M3 - 343bhp
E36 M3 3.2 - 321bhp
Integra Type R - 180bhp
Mark 5 Golf GTI - 200bhp
E60 M5 - 507bhp
Focus ST - 220bhp
530d - 220bhp

Triangle

Not only have you got Torque and BHP. But you also have to factor in the weight distribution..

The question initially asked is too open - can you narrow down what you're looking to find out?

i.e. why are imparea's/Civic's more inclinded to be 'Boy Racer' Cars?

Andrewf20

The best way to answer you question is to dig out a recent car mag and look at the back. All these details are in there. Autocar for 4 euro in the shops should do the trick.

construct06

just tryin, for myself and others to get a feel, maybe from a compiled list, which cars i, and others, might like based on certain characteristics such as bhp, torque, 0-60 time, top speed, mpg, etc...

i think it would be a nice piece of info if it could be compiled neatly for cross referencing.

conneem-TT

Have a look here if you want to compare the performance figures for some cars.

www.letstorquebhp.com

bazz26

chris85 wrote: »

Toyota Altezza is a nice 2.0 litre and puts out about 255 bhp, love the toyotas as well, great cars

Standard factory Altezza with the Yamaha Beams engine produces around 220bhp afaik. Given that we only use 95RON unleaded here you could probably loose around 20bhp off of that figure. Still not bad though for a 2.0 litre N/A engine.

yayamark

02 audi A4 2.4 petrol V6 170 bhp

Earth Worm Jim

Audi S4 344 bhp
Nissan skyline R34 GT-R 280 bhp(official) 327(real)
07 Skyline / Infiniti G35 GTR expected to reach in excess of 450 hp
Nissan 350z 313 HP
Corsa OPC 200 bhp
Seat leon tfsi cupra 240bhp
Ford sierra rs 500 224bhp standard
07 Volvo v70 t6 285bhp
Volvo s70 t5r 250bhp
850 T -5R 240bhp

Henry Ford III

Veyron has 1001bhp.

alias no.9

junkyard wrote: »

I remember racing a Honda Type R with my M5 in the good old days when you could race and the guy pushed his car so hard that he actually blew his engine. I'll admit it was fast but it didn't last.:)

That must be a lie. Didn't you know there has never been a single recorded instance of a vtec engine failing, that's right 0% have failed.;)

Biro

junkyard wrote: »

My E39 M5 has 400bhp and my Audi S8 has 384bhp as far as I know. Personally I'd prefer a powerful car than just a fast one, a lot of the fast ones are tuned to within an inch of their lives and soon run out of steam whereas a powerful car won't even break a sweat. I remember racing a Honda Type R with my M5 in the good old days when you could race and the guy pushed his car so hard that he actually blew his engine. I'll admit it was fast but it didn't last.:)

I don't agree that this post is in any way a fair reflection. I know type r Honda's and non-type R Honda's that are pushed within an inch of their lives day in, day out, and never ever miss a beat. Yer man's one was obviously a dogged piece of dirt.
I agree that outright power from large capacity engines is more enjoyable, but the fact is that tomorrow I could buy and run a Type R no hassle, where as I could buy but not run an M5. Plus look at the new price difference between them, you can't knock the Honda for offering such performance for the price.
Also, Impreza Turbo WRX are 220bhp approx. The STi's are 280 odd.

Biro

Triangle wrote: »

Not only have you got Torque and BHP. But you also have to factor in the weight distribution..

The question initially asked is too open - can you narrow down what you're looking to find out?

i.e. why are imparea's/Civic's more inclinded to be 'Boy Racer' Cars?

Most boy racers follow the heard, that's all. When I was buying my first car, I couldn't get insurance on anything over a 1.4, I priced around and drove a few and the Civic ticked all the boxes for me. If I were in the same situation today, I'd still go for the Civic. Lots of boards people love knocking Hondas and say they're over rated, but I couldn't find a better 1.4 at the time.

omega man

More about Power/Weight ratio. Wasnt there a big thread/table on this a while back?

construct06

these arent available to ordinary punters but wouldnt it be great if they were!!:D

http://cars.uk.msn.com/News/Top_ten_article.aspx?cp-documentid=1304640

construct06

Also see:

http://www.octane.ie/forum/showthread.php?t=11890

chris85

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Veyron has 1001bhp.

Technically on the open market but impossible to get, even with the 1.3 million price tag in your wallet you will find it extremely difficult to get.

But I agree by far the best production car in the world. the W16 engine in it is amazing.

But may stick to achievable cars here.

Gatster

I'm certainly no longer a 'boy' and only very occasionally a 'racer', but my Impreza is kicking out about 270 with the mods, and it certainly could take a whole lot more - there is very little I come across on a daily basis that can keep up, but the way it grips is amazing and makes up some of the difference over more powerful cars. Most of the actual 'boy racers' are in 'classic' shape Imprezas, Early Evo's (II-IV) or Lancer GSR's. Insurance is cheap enough for me (people are quite surprised), but I would say it's probably restrictive for anyone under 25. Also, if you keep your foot in, the MPG plummets.

As Biro sort-of wrote I think a lot of the Civics/Corsas etc. that are around with baked bean cans for exhausts are just 1.4's with an extensive Halfords makeover, as opposed to Type-R's or anything good :rolleyes:

The fastest thing I have come across in Ireland was an R34 Skyline on the M1 last year, the acceleration just seemed improbable.

CarLover

I'm going to do my best to piss as many people off as possible now

All Imprezas are silly...yes silly! I've always taken the view that you can either look reasonably good in a car or a complete plonker. Unless you're a girl, young, and very fit, you look inhernetly stupid driving an Impreza and might as well wear a baseball cap and spit out your window
It's a silly looking car with a ridiculous spoiler and it's rotten to drive as well...clutch is horrid. Anyway...regardless...that spoiler is just ridiculous!!! As are those stupid gold alloys.
Yes, I appreciate that they can go like stink and all the rest. From a rallying perspective I appreciate their worth. But as road cars...it's akin to staple gunning a large plastic penis to your forehead

All White fridge like Jap Import monstrosities...that includes that nasty looking Altezza are also abominations that should be struck off the allowed list of cars on Irish roads. And what is it with Civics?? Yeah...great little car. Great little hatchback. But why does every skanger in Dublin have to paint something revolting on the bonnet and stick an exhaust the size of a two bed semi on the back!!!???

Anyway...maybe I'm just an old fashioned bigot at heart
I'll go with what an earlier poster said and say that power is more important than speed. And there is most definitely a place for power in Ireland. Top end speed doesn't matter very much. Mid range does...the ability to boot when required, overtaking etc...and for motorway cruising.

Last part of my rant coming up...
We're a nation of people who don't understand cars. Someone said it recently somewhere else...cars to the majority of Irish people are modes of transport. We want reliability and nothing much else. It's unfortunate really...we have the worst roads in Europe. And we don't look after our cars. Oh and when you do...some bastard comes along and scrapes it cos his jammer isn't as nice and he feels you're probably getting above yourself!!

Getting off soapbox...dissappearing into the shadows...

Atomic Pineapple

Gatster wrote: »

As Biro sort-of wrote I think a lot of the Civics/Corsas etc. that are around with baked bean cans for exhausts are just 1.4's with an extensive Halfords makeover, as opposed to Type-R's or anything good :rolleyes:

very true, do see alot of civics with type r badges on them that are clearly not type r cars, i drive a integra type r and i know i get labelled as a boy racer which is really unfair as i'm definately not a boy racer.

ambro25

CarLover wrote: »

I'm going to do my best to piss as many people off as possible now

All Imprezas are silly...yes silly! I've always taken the view that you can either look reasonably good in a car or a complete plonker. Unless you're a girl, young, and very fit, you look inhernetly stupid driving an Impreza and might as well wear a baseball cap and spit out your window
It's a silly looking car with a ridiculous spoiler and it's rotten to drive as well...clutch is horrid. Anyway...regardless...that spoiler is just ridiculous!!! As are those stupid gold alloys.
Yes, I appreciate that they can go like stink and all the rest. From a rallying perspective I appreciate their worth. But as road cars...it's akin to staple gunning a large plastic penis to your forehead

mmm... I sense envy

Not all imprezas are "silly looking car with a ridiculous spoiler (...) clutch is horrid (...) spoiler is just ridiculous (...) those stupid gold alloys".

Example:



2.0, 118 kW @ 6400 rpm, 186 Nm @ 3200 rpm, 40+ mpg, 4 doors, a real boot, symmetrical AWD: perfect family saloon and a damn side better value than a same-size/spec Avensis/3-something/A4 for the money.

As for "rotten to drive"... yup, definitely envy... But hey, don't mind me: keep buying other makes, it keeps 'em cheap for us connaisseurs

Of course, I should add that Scoob finished with the big-spoilered, lookit-me affairs in 2006, introducing the D Spec edition (as replacement for the previous WRX STi). Whereby those monstrosities to which you alluded should not be considered any differently from the "Halforded" Corsas/Civics/Integras

Gatster

Originally Posted by 'CarLover'
I've always taken the view that you can either look reasonably good in a car or a complete plonker

If you buy a car because of how you look, you're hardly a 'CarLover'. A troll perhaps, but not a car lover. I don't have gold alloys, I do have a 'ridiculous spoiler', but in the context of the car, it looks right.

and it's rotten to drive as well...clutch is horrid

Now you really are having a laugh, and in the context of Impreza's, this is where they are often at their best:

Mid range does...the ability to boot when required, overtaking etc...

Enlighten us further, what do you drive?

CarLover

Lol...now I'm a troll...nice Just my opinion lads...I've a right to have one....even if you don't like it.

No envy on my part to be honest. I already drive a nice car. It's no Aston Martin but I haven't reached that level of wealth just yet...Lots of poke etc...and a sensible boot as well! It's a beamer...325Ci...
Feel free to call me a hairdresser etc...

Anyone who thinks they don't drive a car for looks is fooling themselves. A car is no different to any other mass marketed product so cut the bull lads. Doesnt matter who you are. Even an oul dear will look at a little Yaris or Fiesta and think...yep...that suits me just fine. All of these things are based on our perception of how we feel about our car and it's aesthetic looks...coupled with it's driving characteristics if you're an enthusiast!

I stand by my comments having driven both an STI and an EVO8 a few years back. Rotten as an everyday car. Great if you have an open road. Crap if you're in Dublin traffic most of the time. For me...me lads...not ye...there's a balance between car with lots of poke and something that's good as an everyday. But hey...each to their own...
And yes...the spoiler still looks ridiculous. It's there for downforce...whilst breaknecking around forests and dirt tracks at 100mph.

Before ye reply lads and jump down my neck for dissin' your motor...a lot of it was tongue in cheek...hence the abundant use of smileys.
But yes....I do think a lot of Imprezas look really really stupid...despite being able to appreciate their capabilities...

edit: ambro25 - I'll admit that's one of the least horrid looking Imprezas I've seen to date

ambro25

CarLover wrote:

Anyone who thinks they don't drive a car for looks is fooling themselves. (etc.)

Again, please stow the XXXL brush away if you don't want to be called a troll

I don't drive the (exact same as pictured above) so much for looks as (IMHO) the best (only?) choice of family saloon with one all-important trump over any alternative currently on the market: real 4WD in a sensibly-sized car.

BM's X-series (I'm not talking about the X5 or X3, but the rare-as-hens-teeth 3--X or 5--X series) have never proven reliable, and Audi A-whatever Quattros, while decent cars themselves, are nowhere near in terms of value for money. Can't think of any others.

Ask yourself (which may be difficult: from your choice of ride, do I take it you have yet to have a family?) : you need something saloon-sized and a decent boot, you want permanent 4WD (IMHO one of the most important safety features you can get with any car), but you don't want MPV/SUV (coz the ride and driveability are gonna be sh1te) - what are your options?

That I like the look of Imprezas (sensible ones) is an added bonus, but kid yourself not - I'd still be buying them even if they looked like Mondeos or Beemers

Gatster

I stand by my comments having driven both an STI and an EVO8 a few years back

No offence, but did you own these and drive them everyday - if so, fair enough, otherwise you can't really comment. I have no idea what a SMART car is like as an everyday car, although I did drive one once.

Anyone who thinks they don't drive a car for looks is fooling themselves...it's aesthetic looks

it's aesthetic looks, not your aesthetic looks. I think you are actually deluding yourself here, not everyone thinks like you. I have bought cars because I liked how they looked, but haven't ever seriously thought, 'people will think I look like X in this'. I'm sure in the eyes of some people they think 'Skanger' when they see me, but I know I'm not, so don't care. If your statement was true, why on earth would I want people to think that?

A car is no different to any other mass marketed product so cut the bull lads

People get emotionally attached to cars, I've yet to meet someone who felt the same about their TV.


I had a 323i Coupe, probably the best all round car I ever owned, but I drove a '02 325i Coupe with the M-pack before I bought the Impreza, and just thought 'I've been here before', and as an enthusiast, wanted to move on.

Back on topic, is the SSC Ultimate Aero TT, not the most powerful/fastest road-legal car in the world nowadays?

alias no.9

ambro25 wrote:

2.0, 118 kW @ 6400 rpm, 186 Nm @ 3200 rpm, 40+ mpg, 4 doors, a real boot, symmetrical AWD: perfect family saloon and a damn side better value than a same-size/spec Avensis/3-something/A4 for the money.

That's all well and good apart from the reference to the it being the same size as the Avensis/3-something/A4 when the impreza is a class smaller. An octavia 1.8T 4x4 would be a more honest comparrison for size, performance, specification and price.

ambro25

alias no.9 wrote:

That's all well and good apart from the reference to the it being the same size as the Avensis/3-something/A4 when the impreza is a class smaller.

Does not compute

Comparison (Impreza 2006 vs Avensis 2006)
Wheelbase, mm : 2620 vs 2700
Length, mm : 4415 vs 4645
Width, mm : 174 vs 176
Height, mm : 1475 vs 1480

A "class smaller" than these is an Astra / Golf / other hatch.

alias no.9 wrote:

An octavia 1.8T 4x4 would be a more honest comparrison for size, performance, specification and price.

Is another body for an A4 quattro.

Back on Topic - Corvette Z06 with LS7 aluminum-block 7.0 Liter V8 (505 hp and 470 lb.-ft. of torque).

CarLover

ambro25 wrote: »

Again, please stow the XXXL brush away if you don't want to be called a troll

Alright...okay...it was early in the morning

ambro25 wrote: »

Ask yourself (which may be difficult: from your choice of ride, do I take it you have yet to have a family?) : you need something saloon-sized and a decent boot, you want permanent 4WD (IMHO one of the most important safety features you can get with any car), but you don't want MPV/SUV (coz the ride and driveability are gonna be sh1te) - what are your options?

That I like the look of Imprezas (sensible ones) is an added bonus, but kid yourself not - I'd still be buying them even if they looked like Mondeos or Beemers

No...you're right...no family yet. Honestly...if I were to need the extra seats and access to baby seats etc...I'd go for a nice 530i or something. I'm not completely hung up on Beamers...I just like the 5 series...
4WD wouldn't be on the cards...

High&Low

ambro25 wrote: »

Ask yourself (which may be difficult: from your choice of ride, do I take it you have yet to have a family?) : you need something saloon-sized and a decent boot, you want permanent 4WD (IMHO one of the most important safety features you can get with any car), but you don't want MPV/SUV (coz the ride and driveability are gonna be sh1te) - what are your options?

I don't agree with all of the comments made by "CarLover" but I happen to also drive a BMW 325Ci and I have an 18 month old child and another on the way, there is plenty of room in the boot and in some ways it is almost easier to strap a child in their seat in this car (with two doors) than it is with a 4 door.

Fredrick

Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution VIII MR FQ400. 405 bhp, 355 lb-ft of torque 0-60 mph in 3.5 seconds Faster off the mark than a Carrera GT, Pagani Zonda, BMW M3. And probably handles better too.

edit: And all that out of a 2.0ltr 4 Cyclinder turbo engine!

omega man

High&Low wrote: »

I don't agree with all of the comments made by "CarLover" but I happen to also drive a BMW 325Ci and I have an 18 month old child and another on the way, there is plenty of room in the boot and in some ways it is almost easier to strap a child in their seat in this car (with two doors) than it is with a 4 door.

If thats the family car prepare to sell! I had a 320 4 door and when the second baby came it had to go. Got the wife a scenic and bought a h/back for myself.

alias no.9

ambro25 wrote: »

Does not compute

In that case, let me help you a little.

ambro25 wrote: »

A "class smaller" than these is an Astra / Golf / other hatch.

Exactly, the figures you quote are for the new impreza hatch. Subaru has changed the embodyment to a hatch to give it broader appeal in a segment dominated by hatchbacks, such as the golf, astra and focus. It's easy to pick on the avensis, the oldest swinger in town, up against the new impreza. A new avensis is due soon and will undoubtedly follow the mondeo and passat upwards in size.

In terms of a comparrison with the main competitors in this class,

Impreza hatch v's Golf Mk V v's Current Astra hatch v's Focus MK II hatch
Wheelbase, mm : 2620 vs 2578 v's 2614 v's 2640
Length, mm : 4415 v's 4204 v's 4249 v's 4342
Width, mm : 1740 v's 1759 v's 1794 v's 1840
Height, mm : 1475 v's 1485 v's 1500 v's 1447

The recently replaced Impreza saloon, the one you posted a picture of above, is comparable with the previous generation saloons in the same class, though probably quite poorly in terms of interior space, it's well shorter in the wheelbase than the astra and focus.

Recently replaced Impreza saloon v's Bora v's Previous Astra Saloon v's Focus MK I Saloon
Wheelbase, mm : 2525 vs 2513 v's 2606 v's 2615
Length, mm : 4415 v's 4376 v's 4252 v's 4362
Width, mm : 1740 v's 1735 v's 1709 v's 1699
Height, mm : 1415 v's 1446 v's 1425 v's 1430

ambro25 wrote: »

Is another body for an A4 quattro.

The in addition to the octavia being smaller everywhere except in the boot, mechanical layout of the A4 and Octavia are very different. The A4 has a longditudinally mounted engine while the octavia has a transverse mounted engine like the golf its based on.

Owen

My ickle MINI Cooper S works (My own one, not the company one) is putting out about 220Bhp, and 245 nm of torque, so it can hold its own against the larger cars. But here's the rub ... a larger car (Lets say a 4.0 v8 5 Series) doesn't work anywhere remotely as hard, and will keep accelerating at 140mph+ when I'm hitting my limit. So it's horses for courses.

Matt Simis

Last 3 Cars:

Beetle V5 - 2.3L - 170BHP - 162ft/lbs Torque (3200rpm) - 1382KG
Audi S4 B5 [stock] - 2.7L - 265BHP - 260ft/lbs Torque (1850rpm) - 1540KG
Audi S4 B5 [Stage3+ tuning] -2.7L - 420BHP - 375ft/lbs Torque (3000rpm) - 1540KG (estimates)
VW Phaeton V10 - 5.0L - 313BHP - 550ft/lbs Torque (2000RPM) - 2555KG


They Stage3 S4 had instant and surging power in its powerband, but you had to be a master of manual gear changes to use it in low rpm or from a stop. The Phaeton has a more laggy response, but its like a bungie cord, little slack then a wallop of power. With its low RPM (its a diesel) you are always in the power band or very close.

ambro25

alias no.9 wrote:

Exactly, the figures you quote are for the new impreza hatch.

Erm. No. The figures I quoted are for the 2006 saloon model (which I own). It only seemed fair that I would compare against a 2006 Avensis saloon model.

I'm not 'picking' on "the Avensis, the older swinger in town", I'm just briefly explaining why I don't consider them to be in different classes/segments: it's a saloon, it's not small like a citycar, it's not shortish like a hatch, it's not huge like a 5-series and up... is all. Fair enough? If you want to sleep sound and well, safe in the knowledge that you put me right for the sake of 10 centimeters or whatever... whatever floats your boat.

As for anything 'new' / 'latest', I haven't played top trumps for nigh on 30 years, so do please excuse me if I don't keep up with last week's or last month's latest and greatest from manufacturers

And the "new" Impreza hatch is f*cking horrible, that is for sure.

@ Ned78 - now that sounds like a barrel of fun, and certainly more accessible/practical than many other supers in this thread

alias no.9

ambro25 wrote: »

Erm. No. The figures I quoted are for the 2006 saloon model (which I own). It only seemed fair that I would compare against a 2006 Avensis saloon model.

There's a mistake in the figures you quoted then.

ambro25 wrote: »

I'm not 'picking' on "the Avensis, the older swinger in town", I'm just briefly explaining why I don't consider them to be in different classes/segments: it's a saloon, it's not small like a citycar, it's not shortish like a hatch, it's not huge like a 5-series and up... is all. Fair enough? If you want to sleep sound and well, safe in the knowledge that you put me right for the sake of 10 centimeters or whatever... whatever floats your boat.

Sorry for being a bit over top. It's the engineers curse, spotting incorrect data, and jumping in, sometimes a bit to heavy.
The thing that annoys me is the practice of dealers in this country passing of some cars as being a segment higher in ireland, than they are sold everywhere else. Another example is when dealers try to tell gullible buyers that the seat ibiza was the same as a vw golf or passing off the octavia as a passat.

ambro25 wrote: »

And the "new" Impreza hatch is f*cking horrible, that is for sure.

We'll agree on that. I saw one in the flesh recently and they look even worse than in pictures.

S.I.R

mazda rx-7 Tiwn turbo ( FD model )

340-250 hp... it is only limited by the 170-180 top speed , 5-speed gear box.... oh and your driving skills :rolleyes:

between 7500 -14000 depending where you buy it from and the mods it has.... (keep an eye out for ones with veilside gear on em cause there parts pretty expencive and worth every penny )
though id i was modding id get a older rx-7 or a old AE86 and stick a 3roter block in and beat Any " sports " car and the open market....


if there not your cup of tea get a dodge charger and restore it ( cars start around 10 k without restoration costs plus its nct exempt and Should have classic insurance.. )


if your still not happy get a e30 bmw... less traction , more action... and they are a pretty fast car. stock. modded there insane.