Electric boats for urban transport

probe

I had a trip on an electric boat today. An electric motor can turn a propeller far more efficiently than an engine burning hydrocarbons and there is no shortage of space for batteries (or fuel cells and hydrogen) on a boat. Even good old fashioned lead-acid batteries will do the job. An ideal solution for short hop river and harbour transport in an urban/suburban environment. About as noisy as a sail boat. Takes people off the road network and out of their cars. Two short videos from today’s trip:

http://der.probe.googlepages.com/electric_boat1.mp4
http://der.probe.googlepages.com/electric_boat2.mp4

.probe

air

I think electric bikes would be a far more efficient use of energy tbh, boats are not an efficient means of mass transport with the amount of drag associated with travelling on water. I guess it would help where road space was limited though.

probe

air wrote: »

I think electric bikes would be a far more efficient use of energy tbh, boats are not an efficient means of mass transport with the amount of drag associated with travelling on water. I guess it would help where road space was limited though.

While I have no problem with people using bikes (electric or pedal power), most people are lazy and won't use them. And they are too dangerous to use in Ireland, given the reckless, incompetent way some people drive. Not to mention the totally disorganized traffic mess in cities, and the wet climate.

At least if you run a regular boat service, (a) you will be able to run it on time due to the absence of traffic jams (b) you can provide cover from the rain (c) a boat ride is a pleasant experience and you will get repeat business and (d) you take your passengers away from the intense traffic exhaust pollution of using the roads.

The drag is irrelevant if you are using green electricity - you just use a bit more electricity - but you create no more CO2.

.probe

air

I'd have to disagree to be honest.
The problems I see with your proposal are as follows:
1. Efficiency - It's all well and good saying use more electricity but you then need more green equipment - wind turbines etc, to harvest that energy and more batteries to store it in and bigger motors to power the boat vs the bus, it goes on and on
2. The pleasant ride - While commuters would of course appreciate increased comfort, they're primarily interested in getting where they want to go as quickly and cheaply as possible. Even the most scenic of commutes would become mundane after a few weeks.
3. Reach - What percentage of the population are within walking distance of a waterway?

I think electric buses would be a much more attractive mass transit solution, all they would require would be investment in exclusive bus lanes which would cost a lot less than things like the Luas per km and be as efficient if not more so.

On the flip side, if someone insists on using a boat of course an electric motor should be more green than an outboard.

probe

air wrote: »

I'd have to disagree to be honest.

Buses and boats serve two different route types. In terms of net energy efficiency (assuming both are electric) I doubt if there is much difference between them. So if you had a battery bus and a battery boat they would be broadly similar (the bus would probably need chunkier batteries).

Given that most electric buses are connected to overhead cables, they don’t rely on batteries. But they do get stuck in traffic and have to cross bridges and wait for traffic lights, etc. The choice of solution is down to the location that needs to be served.

In terms of walking distance to a waterway – this is not relevant in an environment that has integrated public transport. [IT IS HIGH TIME THAT PEOPLE DEMANDED MORE THAN THE "POINT TO POINT" UN-USER FRIENDLY MONOPOLISTIC THIRD WORLD TRANSPORT THAT CIE GROUP IMPOSES ON IRELAND].

If you live on one of the Swiss lakes and commute to a nearby town or city, you will find that many people use a boat. Out of your home – on a bus or tram – on the boat – off the boat – on another bus or tram. At the office. One ticket. Very little waiting time between one mode and another because their timetables are synchronised. Integrated ticketing based on zones rather than modes of transport used. Some days you might decide to take the train. Commuting is less mundane when you have a choice. It creates competition between networks and more space for the customer. Tourists enjoy it too. Makes a city a more attractive location for global business.

A video of an electric bus in Geneva - almost as good as a tram! Quiet, no exhaust smog.

http://der.probe.googlepages.com/gvaelbus.mp4

.probe

air

probe wrote: »

Buses and boats serve two different route types. In terms of net energy efficiency (assuming both are electric) I doubt if there is much difference between them.

I'd imagine there's a massive difference between them. The drag of a boat through water would be huge in comparison to that of a bus on a paved roadway (at bus type speeds anyway). Plus there is a massive energy loss in the drive mechanism of a boat (a propellor spinning in water) vs the efficiency in the interaction between an electric motor and the road (high 90's in efficiency).
This would be further exacerbated by the fact that propellor efficiency is related to speed and propellor pitch, the boat would be likely to be very inefficient accellerating and decelerating - the bus can recapture energy easily when braking.

probe wrote: »

Given that most electric buses are connected to overhead cables, they don’t rely on batteries. But they do get stuck in traffic and have to cross bridges and wait for traffic lights, etc.

air wrote:

all they would require would be investment in exclusive bus lanes

probe wrote: »

If you live on one of the Swiss lakes and commute to a nearby town or city, you will find that many people use a boat. Out of your home – on a bus or tram – on the boat – off the boat – on another bus or tram.

Off the top of my head, I cant really think of any Irish city that has a dense population base alongside its river such that it would be useful as a link in the public transport network.

probe wrote: »

At the office. One ticket. Very little waiting time between one mode and another because their timetables are synchronised. Integrated ticketing based on zones rather than modes of transport used. Some days you might decide to take the train. Commuting is less mundane when you have a choice. It creates competition between networks and more space for the customer. Tourists enjoy it too. Makes a city a more attractive location for global business.

Integrated ticketing is a no brainer, in this country however, our unions and government combine to prevent any kind of interaction between our public services.

probe wrote: »

A video of an electric bus in Geneva - almost as good as a tram! Quiet, no exhaust smog.

Looks great, electric buses are a cool, the first ones were on the road around 100 years ago!

probe

air wrote: »

Off the top of my head, I cant really think of any Irish city that has a dense population base alongside its river such that it would be useful as a link in the public transport network.

People have been commuting to work by boat in Cork harbour for decades (eg between Cobh and Haulbowline and Spike Islands). They also use suburban trains a lot to get to/from work.
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&time=&date=&ttype=&q=Cobh&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=30.833532,69.257813&ie=UTF8&ll=51.847338,-8.291931&spn=0.093744,0.270538&t=h&z=13&om=1

There is someone running a PAX ferry service in Dublin's Docklands. http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&cp=53.347631~-6.235836&style=r&lvl=15&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&encType=1

.probe

air

I'd be interested in hearing what percentage of Dublin commuters use that ferry, and furthermore it's about the only viable water route in the city.

There's hardly too many alternative methods of transport between spike island and cobh other than by boat unless people use air travel!

In conclusion, I think that the only place where public transport by boat makes sense is where there is a lack of space to install dedicated tram/metro/bus lines and where there is an extensive existing network of waterways connecting major business and residential areas.
In any other situation, bus, rail or metro would all be more efficient means of transport assuming they're all electric powered.

maniac101

probe wrote: »

People have been commuting to work by boat in Cork harbour for decades (eg between Cobh and Haulbowline and Spike Islands). They also use suburban trains a lot to get to/from work.
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&time=&date=&ttype=&q=Cobh&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=30.833532,69.257813&ie=UTF8&ll=51.847338,-8.291931&spn=0.093744,0.270538&t=h&z=13&om=1
.probe

The cork harbour ferry is a car ferry service, and is used by road-going vehicles. Only a handful of foot passengers use the service. This is because there is a poor link-up with public transport on both sides. While I wouldn't knock the people who provide the service, it isn't a good example of a future transport system, since it directly encourages use of cars as opposed to public transport. In fact, whenever the ferry service is reduced or not in operation, the usage of the Cobh to Cork train increases.

Accelerating the upgrade of the east Cork rail lines would be far more environmentally beneficial than replacing the existing harbour car ferries with electric ferries.

probe

maniac101 wrote: »

The cork harbour ferry is a car ferry service, and is used by road-going vehicles. Only a handful of foot passengers use the service. This is because there is a poor link-up with public transport on both sides. While I wouldn't knock the people who provide the service, it isn't a good example of a future transport system, since it directly encourages use of cars as opposed to public transport. In fact, whenever the ferry service is reduced or not in operation, the usage of the Cobh to Cork train increases.

Accelerating the upgrade of the east Cork rail lines would be far more environmentally beneficial than replacing the existing harbour car ferries with electric ferries.

You are talking about a different ferry service - nothing to do with Cork harbour - the ferry you mentioned is a cross river car ferry running between Rushbrooke and Passage West (i.e. linking R624 and R610). I agree, that ferry has little or nothing to do with public transport.

.probe