8-12 rep and other rep ranges- empirical or scientific?

rubadub

The rep range 8-12 is said to be best for hypertrophy, lower reps for strength, higher for endurance. Who came up with these? is there scientific reasons for it? or is it just empirical evidience- i.e. people tried various ranges and found they got stronger or bigger. What is more important with these ranges, the number of reps, or the actual weight used. Is it that a given weight you can only lift 8-12 reps will stress the muscles in such a way to cause growth rather than strength, or is more to do with the number of reps?

e.g. say I can bench 60kg for 8 reps. If I did 3 sets of 8, or 6 sets of 4reps in the same overall time frame (e.g. say 2x 2.5min breaks on 8reps, and 5 x 1min breaks on 4reps)-what is the difference? the muscles get the the same weight on them for the same number of reps. I have heard shorter breaks of ~1min are better for hypertrophy, that is why I use the above example, if I am doing 3 sets of 8 reps I personally need longer breaks that after a 4rep set at the same weight. If I used my 8rep weight and only did 3sets of 5 reps would you end up stronger than doing 3 sets of 8 reps? i.e. is it the low reps that result in more strength over size.

In another thread somebody was recommending lower reps for deadlifts, as form can slip on higher rep sets. I am going to start more deadlifting. Last night I was lifting 107kg for about 25reps, but with long pauses between each. I was concentrating on form and an quite tired after each, but I reckon at that weight I could have done 8 reps, if I was not to worry about my form, or floorboards! So I should really be trying 3 sets of 8reps. If I am pausing a lot is there an estimate on equivalents, e.g. would 30 or 40 reps with 15second breaks give equivalent growth as those 24 reps. If I was to up the weight a little would this be reduced. e.g. 30 reps at 90% 1RM with 10 second breaks equate to 3 sets of 8 at 80% 1RM with 3 min breaks.

I realise this is all estimates and may depend on other factors, but if there is any scientific data or studies on weight/set/rep/rest periods etc I would be interested in reading them.

People also say if you plateau you should break the routine. In this case I also wonder about rep ranges etc. Say 2 twins were to train for 2 years. The first twin trained for strength entire first year, the second trained for size. After the first year the first guy will be much stronger, now if he switches to the 8-12rep range he will be able to handle more weight. So in the second year if both went for hypertrophy he is taxing the muscles with more weight at the same reps, so it might result in more growth. Also he has changed his routine so might trigger the body better, while the second twins body might be starting to plateau. So the strength trainer could feasibly end up bigger in the end.

pwd

I read on erxx.net (or whatever it is) that you need to use >90% of 1RM in order to use all the different types of fibres in your muscles. If this is correct it would seem to me that whether training for strength or size you would benefit from sometimes doing low rep sets.
I don't think higher rep sets are as efficient at training yourself to be able to contract the most muscle fibres at once. This is based on what i have read here and elsewhere and it seems logical so I believe it. To train that component of strength you need to use low reps, speed training or plyometrics - I don't know if there are studies to support this idea but it seems logical and comes from reputable sources of info.
I know you've heard this stuff already - I'm just giving my opinion on it.

pwd

exrx.net

rubadub

pwd wrote: »

I read on erxx.net (or whatever it is)

I could never remember either! I since found out RX is an "american thing", meaning prescription. Then EX is for exercise, so exercise prescription, I spent many wasted times guessing the right spelling till I copped that!

pwd wrote: »

I know you've heard this stuff already - I'm just giving my opinion on it.

Havent heard it all before, so thanks, will have a better look on the site, it is pretty big.

When most people think of "high reps", it is within a given set, so you cannot physically do lots of reps in a set at a high %1RM. But I reckon there must be a break even point of doing deadlifts like I mentioned, single rep sets, at say 90%1RM that would give equivalent hypertrophy as 3x8x80%1RM. And it might make you stronger too. Makes sense that the higher the weight the higher the stress and the more "micro damage" you will do

It is only certain exercises that I have issues/problems with doing the standard 3x8reps, namely, squats & deadlifts- unfortunately the 2 most productive ones! I do not care if it is not as efficient timewise, as long as I can get equivalent results, or nearly as good as.

Hanley

Let me apologise in advance is anything I say rubs peopel up the wrong way. I'm a huge fan of keeping it simple and working hard, thus I don't consider things like this very often. But here's my take on things...

rubadub wrote: »

The rep range 8-12 is said to be best for hypertrophy, lower reps for strength, higher for endurance. Who came up with these? is there scientific reasons for it? or is it just empirical evidience- i.e. people tried various ranges and found they got stronger or bigger. What is more important with these ranges, the number of reps, or the actual weight used. Is it that a given weight you can only lift 8-12 reps will stress the muscles in such a way to cause growth rather than strength, or is more to do with the number of reps?

Generaly what seems to have happened is that bodybuilders/powerlifters etc have known for years what works and what doesn't based on trial and error. Science picks up on this and examines why it works and why something else doesn't.

So I guess you could say empirical evidence is the starting point for a scientific study in this case.

e.g. say I can bench 60kg for 8 reps. If I did 3 sets of 8, or 6 sets of 4reps in the same overall time frame (e.g. say 2x 2.5min breaks on 8reps, and 5 x 1min breaks on 4reps)-what is the difference? the muscles get the the same weight on them for the same number of reps. I have heard shorter breaks of ~1min are better for hypertrophy, that is why I use the above example, if I am doing 3 sets of 8 reps I personally need longer breaks that after a 4rep set at the same weight. If I used my 8rep weight and only did 3sets of 5 reps would you end up stronger than doing 3 sets of 8 reps? i.e. is it the low reps that result in more strength over size.

On the first point, I don't even have the slightest idea. Purely as a guess, the sets of 8 are harder becasue you're working closer to your absolute limit with that weight, thus recovery is longer. Maybe it's an issue of muscle fibre recruitment and how certain types of fibres need longer to recover than others. Honestly tho, I would just say you need longer because you're working harder. REgardless of total load and total reps being the same.

On the second point, No, doing less work isn't going to make you stronger. Maybe if you bumped it up to 65 or 67.5kg and did 3x5 you'd get stronger, but simply picking a weight your capable of for 8 and doing 5 isn't going to do anything.

Of course this could work as part of a wider plan where you purposely start low and work up during the weeks to ensure constant progression.

In another thread somebody was recommending lower reps for deadlifts, as form can slip on higher rep sets. I am going to start more deadlifting. Last night I was lifting 107kg for about 25reps, but with long pauses between each. I was concentrating on form and an quite tired after each, but I reckon at that weight I could have done 8 reps, if I was not to worry about my form, or floorboards! So I should really be trying 3 sets of 8reps. If I am pausing a lot is there an estimate on equivalents, e.g. would 30 or 40 reps with 15second breaks give equivalent growth as those 24 reps. If I was to up the weight a little would this be reduced. e.g. 30 reps at 90% 1RM with 10 second breaks equate to 3 sets of 8 at 80% 1RM with 3 min breaks.

The deadlift is a strange beast. I think I was the one who said about training it with lower reps. This doesn't neccessarily mean more weight tho. The reason I prefer lower reps is that it's basically a brute strength movement. And as such it is better trained with heavier weights.

Doing any more than 8 reps on a squat or deadlift is mostly a function of endurance rather than pure strength and as a result training one doesn't neccessarily increase the other (in my opinion, I could be totally right or wrong).

People also say if you plateau you should break the routine. In this case I also wonder about rep ranges etc. Say 2 twins were to train for 2 years. The first twin trained for strength entire first year, the second trained for size. After the first year the first guy will be much stronger, now if he switches to the 8-12rep range he will be able to handle more weight. So in the second year if both went for hypertrophy he is taxing the muscles with more weight at the same reps, so it might result in more growth. Also he has changed his routine so might trigger the body better, while the second twins body might be starting to plateau. So the strength trainer could feasibly end up bigger in the end.

Train one as a powerlifter and one as a bodybuiler, the one who trains as a bodybuilder will be bigger.

I mean bodybuilders don't just do sets of 12 all the time. Look at Ronnie, Jay, Branc Warrren, Jonnie Jackson and all those guys. They're disgustingly strong. Just because you're a bodyuilder doesn't mean you don't lift heavy.

I hope all of that made sense.

Vegeta

Just to throw a spanner in the works how about a pyramid style

Start with a decent weight at 12 reps, then a set at 8, then 5, then 8, and then 12

eroo

i always train so that on the last rep,i go to muscular failure.7-12 reps with a heavy weight will train your muscle sufficiently IMO.the whole point is to fatigue your muscle so that muscle is developed to allow your muscles to perform better the next time.basically,your body repairs your muscles so that you can do more in the next session.so its important not to reach a plateau when training....'keep your body guessing'
well thats my take on reps....always feel the burn,but dont adapt.im too lazy to go into detail/analysis mode!
eroo

rubadub

Hanley wrote: »

I hope all of that made sense.

It does, thanks for the info.

My lower back and between my shoulder blades have got DOMS since yesterday evening, so at least I know the deadlifts did have some effect! I have not had DOMS like that from deadlifts before, my max had been about 8 reps before in a single set- they really wear me out. I think I will up the weight next time and continue with my 25 single reps and see how I get on.

cowzerp

low reps heavy weight work mainly on the large white muscle fibres, medium reps get a good balance of white and red fibres and high reps focus mainly on red fibres, this is why the rep ranges affect the body differently-white for power and red for endurance.thats a simple explanation-i agree with hanley, bodybuilders find this stuff out and scientists prove it.

maradona10

read tudor bompas weight training for sports

explanations are given there

rest should be longer for higher % of max

the 8-12 reps work for hypertrophy cos they force the body to use all muscle fibers. that is why a pump occurs

high % of max training = maximium strength(mxs) this uses just i type of fiber.
all fibers are not used because reps are low so no pump occurs. therefore you get strength increase but little muscle size increase

mxs is recommended for sports as weight gain(Hyp) is not advantageous for most sports, unless u are trying to move up in weight category for boxing etc