Cash Game Etiquette

pkaces

I am relatively new to live cash games. I was playing a 1, 3 no limit HE table, and after becoming short stacked i was put all in but the bet was €5 more than i had. the player next to me made up the €5 i was short and no side pot was made (as i would be used to say online).

I won the pot in the end and there was 3 other callers giving me €20 from the €5 the player next to me posted. I gave him €10 in the end, but am wondering what the etiquette here, do i give him back his €5 , or like i did we split the profit or is he taking a bet for the full €20 at his expense.

Trippie

you are supposed to give him the 20 quid as he is in fact betting on you're hand and depending on how many callers you get he should get that amount of a return on his money

Washout

Trippie wrote: »

you are supposed to give him the 20 quid as he is in fact betting on you're hand and depending on how many callers you get he should get that amount of a return on his money

.

Lafortezza

It's amazing the amount of people you 'top-up' to an even amount when they are all in, and then they forget to return the money with a little profit when they win. Younger players are far more guilty of this.

newbie2

pkaces wrote: »

do i give him back his €5 , or like i did we split the profit or is he taking a bet for the full €20 at his expense.

I'd just give him back the €5. I'm sure the €10 you gave him is ok by him but I don't think he would be expecting the full €20. It looks like he gave you the €5 just to make it easier on everybody - side pots etc. And is not expecting to make a profit on it.

I could, however, be completly wrong. maybe someone who plays a little more cash than me can answer the questions a little better....

newbie2

lafortezza wrote: »

It's amazing the amount of people you 'top-up' to an even amount when they are all in, and then they forget to return the money with a little profit when they win. Younger players are far more guilty of this.

Question answered. i was completly wrong. But I'm a young player !!!

ollyk1

newbie2 wrote: »

I'd just give him back the €5. I'm sure the €10 you gave him is ok by him but I don't think he would be expecting the full €20. It looks like he gave you the €5 just to make it easier on everybody - side pots etc. And is not expecting to make a profit on it.

lmao. He's hardly hoping to make a long run loss on it either which if he only gets the fiver back when he wins and nothing if he loses he surely will.

I never top up someone I don't know anymore as it tilts me when some guy rakes in a €400 pot, keeps the €4-€5 he owes me and then doesn't even bother tipping the dealer. (It shouldn't tilt me but it does along with slow/bad dealers)

I do of course point it out and get my money back :cool: (and then make a point of tipping the dealer in such circumstances) but as its more hassle then its worth I just don't top unknown people up and it solves the problem.

On occasion if a regular is after rivering a massive pot they may forget but at least you can gently remind them of the etiquette without it becoming a big deal.

tipp86

anytime i have seen it someone made up €2 or 3 and i have very rarely seen anyone give roi ussualy see them give the money back.

CaptainNemo

Slightly off topic but have you ever seen a player object to their opponent being topped up? After all this is extra money in the pot, increasing the amount that they have to call.

semibluff

normally give them an even money bet, if not more.

Also id have no problem pointing it out, reminding or explaining what happened if someone forgot to return it. And then if a deal was made about it id tip the dealer with any profits i was given, and point out that he neither did this

semibluff

No, norm the top up is only to the nearest fiver and so makes little if any difference. With not having to show your hand in cash games, for the sake of a few euro people would not complain as they may lose face on their "monster" hand -

Trippie

I remember once there was a 5 way all-in for about 150 each and victor topped a guy up for 28 euro and the lad didnt want to give him anything back after he won the pot,eventually victor git the 140 out of him but he wasnt happy the cheeky git

semibluff

i dont think he should be allowed to be topped up this much. The dealer should just create side pots, thats his/her job. Also it avoids the instances with the "cheeky git". if he really wants to gamble on a hand that he's not even in, ask some1 for action (as they do on HSP) or turn around to the roullette BJ as he has no problem doing. This is taking the pss a bit IMO

DeVore

:eek:

I dont think a dealer should allow a 28 euro topup! I wouldn't!!
I'd probably object too as in a 5 way pot its a big amount in the difference for the remaining players (I mean, if I was in the hand).

I mean, 1-3 euro top up is fine but 28 euro is bordering on breaking the "table limits" rules lol...

DeV.

poker-jacks

ive never seen a top up for more than 3 euro.

The money does not belong to the person being topped up and the amount topped up should be multiplied by the amount of callers and returned when a pot is won. After all, the person topping up can lose this should you lose your hand.

Its very embarrassing to have to ask somebody for the money you're owed when you're sitting at a table:mad:

5starpool

In the Fitz, most dealers won't allow a top up of more than €2 and I think this is good. I only top up people I know, but rarely have to be topped up myself as I usually keep the odds amounts less than a fiver unless I have fairly little or else really dislike the person I am against. If someone forgets to get me after a topup I give them a gentle hint.

There was a funny incident like this last week where a dealer (won't name) topped up from the bad beat rake (only dealer that does this, the rest use rake or tips). The person the dealer topped up won the pot, and tipped accordingly, but when this dealer went to put the tips in the tip tray I objected and told them to put the 2 quid back in the Bad Beat as that is the only part of it that comes back to us.

I'm watching you, oh yes I am.

Killme00

Trippie wrote: »

I remember once there was a 5 way all-in for about 150 each and victor topped a guy up for 28 euro and the lad didnt want to give him anything back after he won the pot,eventually victor git the 140 out of him but he wasnt happy the cheeky git

This is ridiculous, that topup shouldnt have been allowed in the first place

Mellor

The amountr of people that don't understand top ups or abuse them, is funny.
Someone topping you up doesn't affect your hand at all, you can't win any more or any less (at least you shouldn't unless your a tight git). If you are topped up, take the pot you originally were intitled to and pass the small extra over, I don't understand why people don't like giving the full amount over.

DEmeant0r

I've been guilty of not giving back the profits/top up back to the gentlemen who topped me up, but that gentleman(Gordon ) reminded me and I gave him his tenner...

Idu

I played in a game once where after a guy had gone all-in for something like 150 and another player called. Another guy down the end was last to act but only had 135 or something like that. He showed his mate his cards and his mate topped him up the extra 15 and he turned over the nuts.

There was war over that one but the dealer wouldn't change his ruling saying that the other two were in for 150 anyway so it didnt matter!!!:eek:

Needless to say that was the last time I played in that game

califano

wrote:

The amount of people that don't understand top ups is funny.

Is this thread an elaborate level!?. I dont think it is but this is a new one to me as a non live cash player. I dont get the top up concept at all. Whats it all about?.

I see it as this. In a cash game if ive 100 left and a guy goes all in for 105 then i just want to call for my last 100 and he takes his 5 back like a tournament right?. Not so in a cash game it seems no?. What advantage is it for me to let someone top me up for 2 and betting on my hand when theres nothing in it for me?. Can i refuse it?. Am i missing something here?.
wow i sound like such a newb.

Ace2007

Suppose i bet 100, and you have 98 then someone will top you up for 2 as its alot handier, + i'm not going to object since i have a chance of winning 2 more, if you win you should give the person who tops you up 4....

califano

Ace2007 wrote: »

Suppose i bet 100, and you have 98 then someone will top you up for 2 as its alot handier, + i'm not going to object since i have a chance of winning 2 more, if you win you should give the person who tops you up 4....

I get you now its like a 2 euro shot to nothing although i have to say i hate it. So when i lose the topper upper is looking at me like im a muppet for losing him 2 on a hand like that. No i dont want the hassle of it. Can i still refuse a player who wants to top me up to keep it simple for myself and keep my table business my own?.

DeVore

more usually its something like:
guy pushes for 60. another moves in for 100. another calls the 100 and a guy with 98 also calls. Someone will throw two euro to the guy with 98 in order keep the dealers sanity intact and speed the game up.

I have seen this happen with Bad Boy Alex being the guy with 98e. Given that Alex is a gigantic chunk of granite there was a shower of single chips like a blizzard from all directions to top him up

DeV.

Ace2007

rounders123 wrote: »

Can i still refuse a player who wants to top me up to keep it simple for myself and keep my table business my own?.

Yes...

Mellor

janets_on_clubs wrote: »

There was war over that one but the dealer wouldn't change his ruling saying that the other two were in for 150 anyway so it didnt matter!!!:eek:

lol of course it matters. One of the other two were going to with the remaining 30, when the seen the nuts before he topped up his mate he took this away, he topped up knowingthat he won. If he topped up before seeing the hand it would of been fine.
silly silly dealer

califano

Ace2007 wrote: »

Yes...

well if its mostly to make the dealers pot splitting job less trouble thats ok but for someone whos just treating topping you up like a cheap thrill i dunno. bah all this live cash ettiquette!.

POKERKING

rounders123 wrote: »

Is this thread an elaborate level!?. I dont think it is but this is a new one to me as a non live cash player. I dont get the top up concept at all. Whats it all about?.

I see it as this. In a cash game if ive 100 left and a guy goes all in for 105 then i just want to call for my last 100 and he takes his 5 back like a tournament right?. Not so in a cash game it seems no?. What advantage is it for me to let someone top me up for 2 and betting on my hand when theres nothing in it for me?. Can i refuse it?. Am i missing something here?.
wow i sound like such a newb.

yeah this is new to me, i dont play cash at all only a little bit, good thing i found this out cos i thought i knew everything:), does it still apply if a guy bets 100 and i only have 98 left and i call and am only caller?or is it just for multi way pots? i dont understand why he cant just bet 98 like rounders says, i understand devs explanation and suppose its handy in that sense!

AKQJ10

lafortezza wrote: »

Younger players are far more guilty of this.

Old lads dont stop moaning about young players no matter what. Take yourself down the bingo hall sharpish!

Goodluck2me

AKQJ10 wrote: »

Old lads dont stop moaning about young players no matter what. Take yourself down the bingo hall sharpish!

you`l have to wait untill 07:30 for a reply. old people wake early.

Lplated

Mellor wrote: »

The amountr of people that don't understand top ups or abuse them, is funny.
Someone topping you up doesn't affect your hand at all, you can't win any more or any less (at least you shouldn't unless your a tight git). If you are topped up, take the pot you originally were intitled to and pass the small extra over, I don't understand why people don't like giving the full amount over.

Isn't the case that you do win less if you pay the full amount over because the person being topped up is hosting the rake for the whole amount (his all in plus the top up), while the person topping up as recommeded by Mellor and others is getting to put in his 2/5/28 euro and getting a return based on what he put in multiplied by number of callers, without rake??

Sirtoyou

CaptainNemo wrote: »

Slightly off topic but have you ever seen a player object to their opponent being topped up? After all this is extra money in the pot, increasing the amount that they have to call.

After refusing to let a player in macau top up for 1euro in a particular pot i was abused from all angles. But the hand dictated the objection because the original raiser made it 25 to go i was in the pot deep stacked as he was with a speculative holding on the button.The bb moved all in for 49euro with arush of euros to top up to the 50 i sternly objected to be told it was common practice but these people wouldnt accept it was an under raise and i wanted to keep it that way.I eventually called for a ruling that went my way and won a substantial pot but 1euro top up could have changed the dynamics of the whole hand.

ollyk1

Sirtoyou wrote: »

After refusing to let a player in macau top up for 1euro in a particular pot i was abused from all angles. But the hand dictated the objection because the original raiser made it 25 to go i was in the pot deep stacked as he was with a speculative holding on the button.The bb moved all in for 49euro with arush of euros to top up to the 50 i sternly objected to be told it was common practice but these people wouldnt accept it was an under raise and i wanted to keep it that way.I eventually called for a ruling that went my way and won a substantial pot but 1euro top up could have changed the dynamics of the whole hand.

In any casino I've ever played in a top-up of an underraise (which results in it techincally being a full raise) is not counted as reopening the pot for the purposes of further betting. If this is not the case where you were playing then I'd consider not playing there in future and you were absolutely correct in objecting to the top-up.

bohsman

Sirtoyou wrote: »

After refusing to let a player in macau top up for 1euro in a particular pot i was abused from all angles. But the hand dictated the objection because the original raiser made it 25 to go i was in the pot deep stacked as he was with a speculative holding on the button.The bb moved all in for 49euro with arush of euros to top up to the 50 i sternly objected to be told it was common practice but these people wouldnt accept it was an under raise and i wanted to keep it that way.I eventually called for a ruling that went my way and won a substantial pot but 1euro top up could have changed the dynamics of the whole hand.

A topup should not affect the betting, as far as that went you were all in for 49, you can still be topped up but it wont count.

5starpool

Yep, it can be topped up to 50 but does not reopen the betting for the person who bet 25 (or subsequent callers of that 25).

Jesus Wept

should just cut this topping up sh1te out, problem solved, it makes little sense.

5starpool

The-Rigger wrote: »

should just cut this topping up sh1te out, problem solved, it makes little sense.

Online monkey......

ollyk1

The-Rigger wrote: »

should just cut this topping up sh1te out, problem solved, it makes little sense.

Sometimes at a table of people who know what they are doing it speeds the game up.

With a bunch of newbies and inexperienced dealers its -ev for the game as a whole tbh.

Lafortezza

AKQJ10 wrote: »

Old lads dont stop moaning about young players no matter what. Take yourself down the bingo hall sharpish!

Haha I'm only 27, what I really meant is that when younger players get topped up by someone else at the table they often dont realise that they are supposed to pay back the topup with a little bit of interest, ie its more out of inexperience than anything else.

Mellor

Lplated wrote: »

Isn't the case that you do win less if you pay the full amount over because the person being topped up is hosting the rake for the whole amount (his all in plus the top up), while the person topping up as recommeded by Mellor and others is getting to put in his 2/5/28 euro and getting a return based on what he put in multiplied by number of callers, without rake??

This would only be the case if the dealer took extra rake because of the top up.
For example, all-in 100, call 100, all-in 97
The pot is at €297, rake is taken lets say €6, all players compete for the pot of 285, with the two players in for 100 playing for the left over €6

If the player is topped up to €100, then the total pot is 300, rake is still 6, the player who was short still competes for 285, with the two other players plus the player that topped up competing for €9, the side pot is never split, its up to the player to do the right thing and hand over the €9

Obviously if the dealer takes extra rake from the pot due to the top up the main pot loses, but I would be surprised if any dealer did this. (unless ov course it was a €28 top up)

mormank

that guy should never have been allowed top up for 28 euro..even the thought of it is hilarious...that 140 bucks that he was never at any stage entitled to winning tha the took off another player at the table and is just ridiculous!!

Also the same goes for the guy who got 15 bucks off his mate with the nuts. Put simply, both instances are cases of passing chips and therefore are totally not allowed

NeoSlicerZ

lafortezza wrote: »

Haha I'm only 27, what I really meant is that when younger players get topped up by someone else at the table they often dont realise that they are supposed to pay back the topup with a little bit of interest, ie its more out of inexperience than anything else.

The first time it happened to me I was going "...what??????" then somewhat belatedly realised it an orbit later.

Mellor

mormank wrote: »

that 140 bucks that he was never at any stage entitled to winning tha the took off another player at the table and is just ridiculous!!

I am not sure who you are refering to as the sentance is unfinished. Who was not entitles to the 140, the player who topped up the shortie? (I presume so as he was the one who got it)
He shouldn't have been allowed to top up for €28 (as it was too much money)
The dealer or the others should of spoken out.
But as soon as the hand proceeds without anyone speaking out then it is too late. Once the hand goes past this point of course the player who gave in the 28 is entitled to the 140. The shortstack certainly isn't entitled to it.

Johnny Hughes

I think topping off the pot is a very bad idea. It is against the rules in the outlaw games in Texas, where I play. It can lead to a hot score and the pungent aroma of gun smoke. It ends up costing someone money. There is no specific rule about returning the money, the profit on the money, etc.

In Texas, where poker is illegal, we get along very well by avoiding those things like this that can only cause trouble. This topping off gives a small chance for angling. If you have a great hand, you ask a pal to top you off. If you have a terrible hand, you tell them not to top it off. A casino should not allow people to top off the pot.

Johnny Hughes, poker author

The_Chopper

Trippie wrote: »

you are supposed to give him the 20 quid as he is in fact betting on you're hand and depending on how many callers you get he should get that amount of a return on his money

:):rolleyes::o:D;):p:o:rolleyes::)

Mellor

Johnny Hughes wrote: »

This topping off gives a small chance for angling. If you have a great hand, you ask a pal to top you off. If you have a terrible hand, you tell them not to top it off. A casino should not allow people to top off the pot.

Johnny Hughes, poker author

Well, that is different, asking someone to top you up is wrong.
The top up is an offer from another play, who has no knowledge of your holding, you can't request one.

5starpool

Mellor wrote: »

Well, that is different, asking someone to top you up is wrong.
The top up is an offer from another play, who has no knowledge of your holding, you can't request one.

I see people requesting it all the time. Sentences such as 'give us a euro there Dom' are very common in th game I play, but topups never happen for more than €2 in this game (possible rare exceptions for €3) and I have never seen anyone object. This, coupled with the fact that in this game there are about 25 regular players in the pool and a few interlopers, mean that no one even thinks twice about it. The other person who has to pay the exrta 1 or 2 can of course object and it won't be allowed, but I haven't seen it happen yet.

ollyk1

5starpool wrote: »

I see people requesting it all the time. Sentences such as 'give us a euro there Dom' are very common in th game I play, but topups never happen for more than €2 in this game (possible rare exceptions for €3) and I have never seen anyone object. This, coupled with the fact that in this game there are about 25 regular players in the pool and a few interlopers, mean that no one even thinks twice about it. The other person who has to pay the exrta 1 or 2 can of course object and it won't be allowed, but I haven't seen it happen yet.

Give us a euro there Dom.




P.S. Tony can I have a pony. *blubber*

Mellor

5starpool wrote: »

I see people requesting it all the time. Sentences such as 'give us a euro there Dom' are very common in th game I play, but topups never happen for more than €2 in this game (possible rare exceptions for €3) and I have never seen anyone object. This, coupled with the fact that in this game there are about 25 regular players in the pool and a few interlopers, mean that no one even thinks twice about it. The other person who has to pay the exrta 1 or 2 can of course object and it won't be allowed, but I haven't seen it happen yet.

Well thats fine if the top ups are that always low. But it places are allowing top ups of €5or more then there shouldn't be an option to request one.

RoundTower

it's not meant to be about the money, it is to make round numbers or to give someone else a little rooting interest in the hand. If it starts to be about the money it should be stopped.

Goodluck2me

RoundTower wrote: »

it's not meant to be about the money, it is to make round numbers or to give someone else a little rooting interest in the hand. If it starts to be about the money it should be stopped.

Topping me up in Vegas was the only pots that Reggie won afaik.