The Shannon issue and pay rises

oscarBravo

I note that the senior civil servant who took the fall for the apparent lack of communication in the Department of Transport has been awarded a substantial pay rise, and now earns more than the minister himself.

How utterly bizarre is this country, where someone who admits to making an error of catastrophic proportions (leaving aside for the moment the question of whether we believe her or not) is then promptly rewarded with a payrise that exceeds the average industrial wage?

Akrasia

oscarBravo wrote: »

I note that the senior civil servant who took the fall for the apparent lack of communication in the Department of Transport has been awarded a substantial pay rise, and now earns more than the minister himself.

How utterly bizarre is this country, where someone who admits to making an error of catastrophic proportions (leaving aside for the moment the question of whether we believe her or not) is then promptly rewarded with a payrise that exceeds the average industrial wage?

You can't be serious? What exactly is the criteria for assessment? Loyalty to the minister? Knowing things that could get the minister in trouble?

stovelid

The only word we have on the 'error' is an already under-fire minister who benefited massively from the deflection of flak, and the civil servant who has suddenly landed a highly improbable pay rise for making the 'error'.

Wouldn't dream of saying there was anything untoward of course...

purple'n'gold

oscarBravo wrote: »

I note that the senior civil servant who took the fall for the apparent lack of communication in the Department of Transport has been awarded a substantial pay rise, and now earns more than the minister himself.

How utterly bizarre is this country, where someone who admits to making an error of catastrophic proportions (leaving aside for the moment the question of whether we believe her or not) is then promptly rewarded with a payrise that exceeds the average industrial wage?

This is beyond comprehension, but of course it could only happen in Ireland.
“The last great bastion of bullsh!t and codswallop west of the urals”

jmayo

oscarBravo wrote: »

I note that the senior civil servant who took the fall for the apparent lack of communication in the Department of Transport has been awarded a substantial pay rise, and now earns more than the minister himself.

How utterly bizarre is this country, where someone who admits to making an error of catastrophic proportions (leaving aside for the moment the question of whether we believe her or not) is then promptly rewarded with a payrise that exceeds the average industrial wage?

Ah be fair, only half of it was for forgetting to tell him about Shannon.
The other half was for the provisional license idea

Tipsy Mac

40 odd percent or more people voted this lot back in, those idiots are the problem not the people running the country

mike65

Sure Brendan Drumm is on a great whacking pay rise and the HSE is a logisitical, administrative disaster. There are no critieria, only the need to be in the job at the right time.

Mike.

NewDubliner

oscarBravo wrote: »

How utterly bizarre is this country, where someone who admits to making an error of catastrophic proportions

'Catstrophic'? Language like that should be reserved for situations involving loss of life. Shannon lost a few slots going to London & the local middle-class have a bit more bother travelling long-haul.

Seems to me that he did his minister a favour.

moe_sizlak

why all the big surprise , this is how it is in the public service , there is no correlation between performance and pay , thanks to bertie and benchmarking , this madness was rubber stamped
bertie assures the unions that the gravy train will continue to run and in return , we get relativeley little dispute which makes bertie look good and so the vicious circle continues

oscarBravo

NewDubliner wrote: »

'Catstrophic'? Language like that should be reserved for situations involving loss of life. Shannon lost a few slots going to London & the local middle-class have a bit more bother travelling long-haul.

I'm sure you'd feel the same if there were no flights from Dublin to Heathrow. It's only a short drive to Belfast, after all.

NewDubliner wrote:

Seems to me that he did his minister a favour.

It's an open question as to whether or not she did, but that's probably not what you meant.

Carawaystick

More Irish citizens live within a "Short Drive" of Aldergrove than Rineanna. Why should the Irish Govt. favot the Few over the Many? On Purely Commercial terms, should the govt try limit the profit of Aer Lingus to suit other Air Lines?
Can the people who think it is terrible that you can only fly from Shannon to 3 of the 5 airports of London come up with a monetary figure for the loss to the Shannon catchment area?
Can the people who want to fly and get conections through heathrow explain why they really want to visit that godforsaken place over any other airport in the world. All the English people I know and all the people I work with can't stand traveling through the place on a direct flight nevermind a connecting flight.
Explain why Heathrow is better than anywhere else
Quantify how much the loss of a direct Shannon Heathrow route costs Ireland
If the number is less than the cost of the Integrated ticketing fiasco, explain why Noel Dempsey should resign over Shannon and not over Integrated Ticketing.

oscarBravo

Carawaystick wrote: »

Can the people who want to fly and get conections through heathrow explain why they really want to visit that godforsaken place over any other airport in the world. All the English people I know and all the people I work with can't stand traveling through the place on a direct flight nevermind a connecting flight.

I re-iterate the point I made above, and again I assume that should all airlines cease operating a Dublin-Heathrow service, you would applaud the decision?

Carawaystick

If a company I owned and sold most of, could get a better return on my remaining quarter interest by stopping an existing activity and starting something new, I'd want it to do something new.

I don't applaud airlines, I leave that to frightened fliers.

If I personally owned part of an airline and it could make me more money by not flying DUB-LHR, then that'd be fine by me. In fact if the airline didn't, I'd be upset.

If you mean ther'd be a loss of connectivity from DUB to the rest of the World if there were no Heathrow flights, I doubt there's many places with high traffic levels that would be much worse off conection wise.
If the passenger demand doesn't justify connections, then the passenger demand doesn't justify those connections, take an extra flight on your journey.

NewDubliner

oscarBravo wrote: »

I'm sure you'd feel the same if there were no flights from Dublin to Heathrow. It's only a short drive to Belfast, after all.

It would be inconvenient, but there are other airports in London and there are other international hubs. I'd feel like a prat describing it as a 'catastrophie'.

The over-reaction makes Limerick look quite silly.

oscarBravo

NewDubliner wrote: »

It would be inconvenient, but there are other airports in London and there are other international hubs. I'd feel like a prat describing it as a 'catastrophie'.

The over-reaction makes Limerick look quite silly.

Hand on heart - be honest now - do you honestly think that if all flights from Dublin to Heathrow were canceled in the morning, the Dublin business community would shrug its collective shoulders and say "fair enough, we'll just fly to Stansted so"?

I mean, be honest now.

I accept that there are some people who never fly to Heathrow, and can't understand why you'd want to. What puzzles me is their unwillingness to accept that for other people, having a 3-hour drive at one end or the other of their journey might be just a shade more than a minor annoyance.

I speak as someone who has had occasion to do some SNN-LHR flying lately, and for whom the alternative is at least an hour and a half of M25.

NewDubliner

oscarBravo wrote: »

Hand on heart - be honest now - do you honestly think that if all flights from Dublin to Heathrow were canceled in the morning, the Dublin business community would shrug its collective shoulders and say "fair enough, we'll just fly to Stansted so"?

There would be grumbling for sure and then people would adapt. I'd doubt you'd hear the word 'catastrophie' used. That's what makes Dublin so much more successful than Limerick. That, and nobody would be surprised or interested if the minister claimed not to know.

If there's a strong business case for Shannon to have Heathrow routes, I'm sure you'll have them.

oscarBravo

NewDubliner wrote: »

There would be grumbling for sure and then people would adapt.

Let me guess - you've never been in a situation where Heathrow was the only rational choice of airport for you to fly to. Lots of people - in Dublin as well as Shannon - are in that situation, and it is way beyond naive to think they'd just shrug and let it slide.

NewDubliner wrote: »

I'd doubt you'd hear the word 'catastrophie' used. That's what makes Dublin so much more successful than Limerick.

You're incredibly hung up on a word that (a) I didn't use in the context you keep presenting it, and (b) you've mis-spelled twice now. Pretend I never used the word "catastrophic", and see if you can bring yourself to see whether or not I have a point.

NewDubliner wrote: »

That, and nobody would be surprised or interested if the minister claimed not to know.

Whoah there Nelly. Are you saying that senior civil servants keeping their ministers in the dark is something that Dublin people take for granted, and don't give a damn about? Are you claiming that a culture of governmental ignorance is something that Dubliners actively encourage?

Or is it just something that Dublin civil servants actively encourage?

NewDubliner wrote: »

If there's a strong business case for Shannon to have Heathrow routes, I'm sure you'll have them.

Oh, I'm sure. However, there's a wider issue here - but then, you've already nailed your colours to the mast on that one.

galwayrush

Tipsy Mac wrote: »

40 odd percent or more people voted this lot back in, those idiots are the problem not the people running the country

Nail on the Head.:rolleyes:

NewDubliner

oscarBravo wrote: »

Pretend I never used the word "catastrophic", and see if you can bring yourself to see whether or not I have a point.

Yes you do have a point, but you've used the wrong word to describe the situation. Choose a different one.

oscarBravo wrote: »

Whoah there Nelly. Are you saying that senior civil servants keeping their ministers in the dark is something that Dublin people take for granted,

Sometimes it's for their own good. Allows the minister to plausibly deny knowledge of something that would get him/her into trouble with the voters in middle Limerick.

oscarBravo wrote: »

Are you claiming that a culture of governmental ignorance is something that Dubliners actively encourage?

No, it's the politicians who decide what to 'know' officially and what not to know.

Fratton Fred

I'm fed up with the whole pay rise issue. I have relatives who work in the public sector and they are unbelieveable, their complete and utter disregard for public money is amazing. Couple this with the shockingly bad service to the people they are there to serve and it is very frustrating to say the least. However, until the government grows some balls and tackles this is here to stay. I heard that 22% of voters are in the Public sector, if this is true then I guess there isn't a lot of hope of that ever happening.

RE the Shannon issue, I can sympathise with losing the Heathrow link, Stanstead to Heathrow is a nightmare and people forget that Heathrow is more than a London ariport, it is a major world airline hub. Maybe the answer is looking for another hub to link Shannon to rather than Heathrow, in Germany, France etc. I do feel though that Aer Lingus should be free to get on with running a profitable airline rather than a sevice, if the route was that attractive then surely someone else would have stepped in.

Or, maybe, Aer Lingus need to take the Shamrock off their planes and rename themselves Air Fleet?

Carawaystick

Oscar, the main reason people have complained about the loss of heathrow is the loss of connections. If there were no flights from DUB to LHR there would be connections to schipol and roissy and frankfurt and madrid and through america.

you wanted to go to somewhere in england that suited you to go to Heathrow? why not spend an hour and a half on the N20 instead and fly from Cork?
Why would it be irrational to fly to another airport instead of Heathrow? I can see how it will be more awkward to get conections from shannon, I can see it'd be more awkward to get to Windsor say from Clare, but I don't see people complaining about not being able to get to la Guardia from Dublin and can only get to jfk. If no-one flies where you wanna go, and you, like me, can't afford your own plane....

I presume you mean if it was announced in the morning that after the same amount of notice, flights from DUB to LHR were to be stopped....

if there was zero notice I'd imagine people'd complain.
I don't think ther'd be people on the streets marching in Dublin.

oscarBravo

Carawaystick wrote: »

Oscar, the main reason people have complained about the loss of heathrow is the loss of connections. If there were no flights from DUB to LHR there would be connections to schipol and roissy and frankfurt and madrid and through america.

That's just one reason people have complained. There's an astonishing amount of business done in the immediate Heathrow area by virtue of its scale as an international hub. Lots of people fly to Heathrow for Heathrow's sake. I've done so many times myself.

Carawaystick wrote: »

I presume you mean if it was announced in the morning that after the same amount of notice, flights from DUB to LHR were to be stopped....

if there was zero notice I'd imagine people'd complain.
I don't think ther'd be people on the streets marching in Dublin.

Seriously, come on. As long as there were a few months for people to get used to the idea that they'd have to drive to Belfast to fly to Heathrow, you reckon the Dublin business community would shrug its collective shoulders and say "ah what the hell, the drive will do us good"?

I call knee-deep bull****.

I'm more interested in discussing the view that's been put forward here that a senior civil servant's role is to offer her minister a way of pretending they didn't know about something, in order to dodge the adverse publicity that would come with - heaven forbid - them actually having to do their job. I'm also curious to see how many people genuinely believe that this is such a laudable role that to reward it with a €270,000 salary is a productive use of taxpayers' money.

jmayo

Unlike I bet most of the posters on here I have actually worked in Shannon industrial zone and for a multinational.
The Heathrow link was very useful in allowing Irish based staff to access offices based around Europe, indeed around the world and foreign based staff to reach Shannon.

What most east coast based posters appear to believe is it is ok for someone to fly in from some overseas destination to Dublin, then have to crawl through the nightmare of Dublin traffic to the city centre, then eventually manage to catch one of the few trains that go to Limeirck (by way of train change in Limerick junction) or Galway and then by taxi or worse bus to their ultimate destination. Getting out is the reverse and just as bad.

The scenario of flying in/out of Dublin might be fine if there were adequate public transport links in this country and Dublin airport itself wasn't such a shi*hole.

Other points about Heathrow.
Yes it is very busy and can be difficult to get through but look at the number of destinations that can be reached from it.
Heathrow itself provides an ideal location for managers to meet from all over Europe and indeed the world.
Also there are a number of large companies with their Euopean HQs based in the areas near to Heathrow.

Carawaystick

The Dept of transport have made far more screwups than shannon.
on commuting & transport there's an excerpt from the DAil record of Dempsey stating his dept took 11 months to decide if Dublin bus could use the new busses the state paid for to run a service from swords to Rathmines, because a private operator was thinking of applying to run an express service from Swords to the city centre.
for these eleven months, the busses were idle, only used to bring people to that auld intercontinental golf match while the people of Swords and around are left with no new services.

The dept of transport have poured about 30 million down the drain on "Integrated ticketing" with absolutely nothing to show for it.

the dept of transport has refused to give funding to Irish rail to increase capacity through the city centre rail lines

The Dept of transport has stalled on the Middleton line delaying it for many years

The dept sold Aer Lingus in the flotation for far less than it's worth a week later

The dept hasn't broken up Aer Rianta fully yet, DAA knew but didn't tell shannon AA?

By all accounts city bus services in Limerick ( serving UL any way) are appaling, underresourced and over crowded.
In Cork a similar storey- busses infrequent and full and slow.


all good reasons to consider the pay rises for the dept of transport poor "Value for Money"

Dempsey went on radio1 a few weeks ago encouraging everyone to take public transport. when asked if he used it he said his security wouldn't let him...

Dempsey was the one who brought in the Electronic voting machines

Good reasons to consider him "value for money"



Anyhow as mick O leary pointed out Aer Lingus telling the dept of Transport at all was unfair insider information. even if Dempsey officially knew what could he legally have done- if the egm had gone ahead do you think hte govt would have voted with ryanair to re-instate the route?

Realistically, what could the govt have done? instigate a pso route from london to clare? force the second ceo of aer lingus to leave in less than 2 years?


jmayo, Cork is a lot nearer Shannon than Dublin airport.
there are direct flights from Galway to London.
People on the east coast had to endure a stop off in shannon for years. maybe this is why there is not a huge swelling of sympathy for shannon.

Anyhow, I was about to say the west is remote and unconnected and this is a factor in any comapny setting up there but then remembered that there is an international airport in every county from Waterford around to Down with the honerable exception of Limerick.