Do we want veg restaraunt?

miarosa

Good afteroon everyone....

Firstly, im new here hi! I'm in the process of looking for a venue to open my first restaurant, it's all very exciting and scary

So heres my question, I am a self thought cook, cooking mainly Italian and a little Indian as im veggie and find their cusine suits me. I fully intend on hiring a fully qualified chef, however i plan on choosing the dishes and menu, with his/her input as a professional. I was going to go with the usual Italian homely food, but then i thought, why not do what i know, vegetarian! I was thinking perhaps more refined but not ponsy vegetarian, still good portions and value for money but more elegant than the only cafe i know in dublin that does vege. Is this a bad idea? Am i alienating 80% of potential customers, or are there enought people interested in veg food to make any kind of go of my business?? Also im Ceoliac and was thinking of perhaps doing a weekly intolerance special...or daily?

Just really want peoples input, am i getting ahead of myself? Should i stick with italian and do a good veg option? sorry about all the questions, id be grateful if someone would let me know.....

Also....if this is in the wrong place, feel free to move it...i couldnt find just a general restaurant forum...another also....my food is better than my spelling

telecaster

As a vegetarian, I would heartily welcome more vegetarian restaurants.

If I were an investor I wouldn't be so sure it was viable.

If I were your business advisor I would hope you are doing a whole lot more market research on this than posting a thread to boards.ie

Best of luck with it, hope it works out for you

miarosa

Thanks for your reply, I have owned a catering company for many years and find i understand the food market very well, just not in specialised areas, market reserch has to start somewhere, why not put the question out to foodies on the largest forum in Ireland? Just to test the waters?

Tar.Aldarion

If you make good vegetarian food you will not be alienating thatmuch of the market. Look at govindas and cornucopia, amazing vegetarian restaurants that anybody would eat in. I wish I could have all my meals in them.

Do some nice fake meat dishes.

Where do you want to locate?

Slaphead07

There's absolutely no doubt that Dublin can support a good quality vegetarian restaurant. The restaurants mentioned above and the likes of Fresh are fine but too casual (in every aspect) to be considered "fine dining". I think Corks "Café Paradiso" http://www.cafeparadiso.ie/ would be a very good blueprint for anyone starting out. Friendly but still serious food.

You'll need to produce food so good that even non-veggies will queue up to get in there! Good luck.... keep us informed. I'll be there the first day.

Slaphead07

there's also a chain (well there's 3 or 4 all owned by the same family) in New York that do a lot of faux meats/poultry as well as meat dishes.

Here's a link to the Dragonfly menu... scroll down for the Veggie options

http://www.menupages.com/screenmenu_b.asp?restaurantid=579&areaid=2

Great eating if initially a little odd for those of us who haven't eaten meat in a long long time.

Scoobydoobydoo

I second the comment about Cafe Paradiso. My own feeling would be that not everybody can eat meat, but everyone can eat veggie, but the thing is to make the food interesting and tasty for meat eaters to be attracted.
I've been a vegetarian for 20 years, but my hubby's a meat eater. I am the main cook and have made so many different types of veggie meals at home. From this my experience of his attitude is that the mere mention of things such as mung beans and tofu make his face scrunch up! These kind of foods are what a lot of meat eaters think of when they hear the word vegetarian, and it puts them off!
I used to always choose to go to Italian restaurants, as they seemed to give the best choice of veggie options generally. I think this is a nice idea, although you might reach a wider clientele if you had a more varied menu perhaps? I don't know but I would go to either personally!

Best of luck with it anyway, you must be so excited!

Tar.Aldarion

I would like to eat in that New York restaurant. Yum.
I'd love to have a good fake steak somewhere too.

Slaphead07

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

I would like to eat in that New York restaurant. Yum.
I'd love to have a good fake steak somewhere too.

As I say there's a few of them down around the villages... nearly always full and the food was superb. The beer was pretty good too! They take Indonesian recipes as their basis but then broaden it considerably.

I can't find the direct link for Dragonfly but Red Bamboo is broadly similar http://www.redbamboo-nyc.com/index.html I'm fairly sure the meat/chicken/fish in their menu is in fact soy.

Of course we'll now have gangs of roaming carnivores telling us to eat a proper steak if we want one! Too simplistic that......

Mentalmiss

Cafe Paradiso has been around for a long time and does very well. I have often failed to get a table there.
You must also remember that there is a much larger population in the Dublin area to support your venture than in Cork.

I have eaten in dragonfly to be honest it freaked me out.
I'm sure what I ordered probably didn't taste anything like chicken but the whole concept was wrong to me.
Stuff that is pretending to be meat does not appeal to me at all.

rockbeer

Hi Miarosa,
Can I add my voice to the many who advocate Café Paradiso as the blueprint for the perfect vegetarian restaurant? If you haven't already been, I strongly suggest you go and try a good few things off the menu there, just to get an idea of what really top quality veggie food can (and should in my view) be like. It is truly in a different league to the likes of Cornucopia and the truly abominable Juice, which gives vegetarian food a bad name and just gives support to every tired old rabbit-food cliché meat-eaters seem to like to come out with. If you want to start something like that, let me know now so I can remember not to visit when you're up and running

I realize that veggie chefs of the quality of Denis Cotter don't grow on trees, so you might find it difficult to emulate the standard of CP. Nonetheless I, like you, work in the catering business and am quite sure from personal experience that if you find the right location and serve up quality you will do fine.

As others have said, though, your location will be critical, especially in the start-up phase. Many restaurants survive despite their lack of obvious quality entirely due to a good location. You could aim to be one of these. On the other hand, somewhere like CP has established itself in a terrible location on the grim outskirts of Cork City centre down entirely to reliable high quality, which shows that if you get everything else right, location isn't everything. Just make sure you can afford to spend a few years establishing yourself.

Can you narrow it down at all for us? Have you even identified a city or county, or is the whole of Ireland up for consideration?

Good luck.

miarosa

Thanks so much for all your replies, I was brought up veg and all my family are also veg, so variety isnt a problem, my mother used to teach veg cooking, using all kinds of meat subsitutes including TVP, Quorn, lentils, chickpeas etc as proteins, we never ate tofu, infact, as a veg all my life some may be surprised to hear iv actually never tasted it!! It just doesnt appeal to me, as i would image it doesnt appeal to meat eaters.

Im currently looking at venue in rathgar and one on baggot street, the baggot street one is alot more expensive, however it is more central and for a specialised eatery, may do better. I just want to create a place with a good atmosphere, somewhere everyone feels comfortable and welcome, with excellent food and even better service.

Iv just to decide now which cusine to go with. :rolleyes:

Nature Boy

miarosa wrote: »

Im currently looking at venue in rathgar and one on baggot street, the baggot street one is alot more expensive, however it is more central and for a specialised eatery, may do better. I just want to create a place with a good atmosphere, somewhere everyone feels comfortable and welcome, with excellent food and even better service.

I would love it if you set up in baggot st, i work near there! So I'd be a regular lunch time visitor
You would definitely get more customers in baggot st, but it's more of a business area so it might be quiet at the weekends and busy weekday lunchtime.

miarosa wrote: »

Iv just to decide now which cusine to go with. :rolleyes:

I do really like the veggie restaurants we have already, but I've always thought it would be nice to have a restaurant that just serves simple, popular dishes like lasagne, shepherd's pie, bolognese, stew, fry ups, pies, etc. But I guess that would be more along the lines of a cafe than a restaurant

Tar.Aldarion

I don't like those foods, nay! :-)

For veggie food I fond the prices at cafe paridiso objectionable. It would want to be good!
I'm going to give a go though.

Tofu can be amazing, my local chinese manages to make it crispy but full of savory juice, in the centre.

You have to be preety bloody narrow minded to write off tofu "like a meateater" but propone excellent TVP.
That kind of restaurent wouldn't appeal to my kind of veggie at all.
The kind of meat eater who frequents veggie establishments is usually doing so on the basis of a healthy choice. I don't think Quorn or TVP will appeal to them either.

rockbeer

Moonbaby wrote: »

For veggie food I fond the prices at cafe paridiso objectionable. It would want to be good!

It is!

tbh, I don't really know how you can say that without having tried it.

It isn't generic veggie slop and boiled rice you know

What exactly are you saying? That quality veggie food prepared with care and skill is inherently worth less than any old meat no matter how it's prepared?

Seriously, please do at least give it a go before you comment.

Slaphead07

Moonbaby wrote: »

I have eaten in dragonfly to be honest it freaked me out....... Stuff that is pretending to be meat does not appeal to me at all.

Don't order it. Problem solved.

rockbeer

rockbeer wrote: »

It is!

tbh, I don't really know how you can say that without having tried it.

It isn't generic veggie slop and boiled rice you know

What exactly are you saying? That quality veggie food prepared with care and skill is inherently worth less than any old meat no matter how it's prepared?

Seriously, please do at least give it a go before you comment.

In fairness I commented on the prices, I don't need to go to the restaurent to do that, as they are available online.

Even bad Meat is far more expensive than quality veg etc.

Risotto of watercress & roast shallots with sweet & hot peperonata, lemon borlotti beans and Oisin goats cheese €24.00

I don't see where more than 5 euro is being spent on the ingredients, in this example.

I have actually had a few meateaters recommend this place, so if I ever find myself in Cork, I will try it.

Slaphead07

Slaphead07 wrote: »

Don't order it. Problem solved.

Actually had a look at the menu and realised that I have gotten the restaurent mixed up.
The veggie restaurent I am thinking of specialises in Asian style fake meat food with branches in NJ and NYC.
Some thoughtful meater made great efforts to find a veggie restaurent when they were treating me to dinner, so I shut up and put up.
Wouldn't purposely go in.

I did also eat in a couple of dragonfly, memorably good food.

TheBigLebowski

Why do no restaurants (that I know of) serve Quorn and stuff like that?

rockbeer

Moonbaby wrote: »

In fairness I commented on the prices, I don't need to go to the restaurent to do that, as they are available online.

I don't want a row, but you described the prices as objectionable without having any idea what quality you get for your money.

That's just silly.

Where did you get the idea that the price of restaurant food bears any but the most superficial relationship to the price of the ingredients? It's all about the quality of the preparation. Otherwise a Michelin-starred restaurant steak would cost roughly the same as a diner steak.

Too expensive for you I could understand, but 'objectionable' says you have decided in advance that no food without meat could be worth that sort of money.

Besides which, by Irish standards it isn't actually that expensive at all. You can easily pay a tenner for a completely unremarkable one course lunch, and veggie main courses almost anywhere come in at 15 Euro or so.

Café Paradiso is expensive - I couldn't afford to go there more than once once or twice a year. But they serve up some of the best vegetarian food you'll find anywhere. For that I don't think they're overcharging.

daiixi

miarosa wrote: »

Thanks so much for all your replies, I was brought up veg and all my family are also veg, so variety isnt a problem, my mother used to teach veg cooking, using all kinds of meat subsitutes including TVP, Quorn, lentils, chickpeas etc as proteins, we never ate tofu, infact, as a veg all my life some may be surprised to hear iv actually never tasted it!! It just doesnt appeal to me, as i would image it doesnt appeal to meat eaters.

Iv just to decide now which cusine to go with. :rolleyes:

I'm a meat eater but I absolutely love tofu and have introduced it to quite a few people. Tofu, like anything else, tastes fabulous if it's prepared and cooked correctly.

As for which cuisine, can you mix and match? Can you come up with more variety/value for money for one rather than the other?

rockbeer

rockbeer wrote: »

I don't want a row, but you described the prices as objectionable without having any idea what quality you get for your money.

That's just silly.

Where did you get the idea that the price of restaurant food bears any but the most superficial relationship to the price of the ingredients? It's all about the quality of the preparation. Otherwise a Michelin-starred restaurant steak would cost roughly the same as a diner steak.

Too expensive for you I could understand, but 'objectionable' says you have decided in advance that no food without meat could be worth that sort of money.

Besides which, by Irish standards it isn't actually that expensive at all. You can easily pay a tenner for a completely unremarkable one course lunch, and veggie main courses almost anywhere come in at 15 Euro or so.

Café Paradiso is expensive - I couldn't afford to go there more than once once or twice a year. But they serve up some of the best vegetarian food you'll find anywhere. For that I don't think they're overcharging.

If you want to avoid a row, please refraining from snidely calling me silly because you think you have a right to dictate what I can and cannot find objectionable.

It is idiotic to suggest that a Michelin starred restaurent would magicaly transform the same bit of brazilian beef that you'd find in local carvery.You are indeed paying a premium for top quality ingredients among other things.
What do you think the price difference between veggie and meat dishes comes down to if not ingredients!
But that is all beside the point because Cafe Paradiso, doesn't have a Michelin star.
Restaurent Patrick Guillabaud, the best restaurent in Ireland with two Michelin stars serves veggie mains from 25.
While Ciaran's in Limerick provides quality organic veggie food with flair at 8.50 a main.
On that basis I think that Cafe Paridiso is certainly charging too much for what it is.

TheBigLebowski

TheBigLebowski wrote: »

Why do no restaurants (that I know of) serve Quorn and stuff like that?

Quorn is processed and most veggie restaurents have a healthy eating focus, some veggies also have an ethical problem with it as it was tested on animals iirc.

Peanut

Hi OP,
I know it's not the type of place that you're considering, but I think a branch of Maoz in Dublin for example, would do very well

There are alot of offices around Baggot st. but there are only sandwhich places and a bit of pub grub.
I think a light healthy veggie lunch option might go down well in that location.

Peanut

Peanut wrote: »

Hi OP,
I know it's not the type of place that you're considering, but I think a branch of Maoz in Dublin for example, would do very well

This is very true! Falafel are addictive!

rockbeer

Moonbaby wrote: »

If you want to avoid a row, please refraining from snidely calling me silly because you think you have a right to dictate what I can and cannot find objectionable.

Hmmm, you misunderstand me. Would you accept my opinion on the price of a Ferrari if you knew I'd never sat in one?

Moonbaby wrote: »

It is idiotic to suggest that a Michelin starred restaurent would magicaly transform the same bit of brazilian beef that you'd find in local carvery.You are indeed paying a premium for top quality ingredients among other things.

Of course you get quality ingredients in a quality restaurant - but in the end it's the "among other things" that really explain the price difference. I work in the food business, and have done on and off for 25 years, and I can tell you that's a fact so don't delude yourself. Unless you're eating caviar or lobster there isn't *that* much difference between the ingredients.

Moonbaby wrote: »

What do you think the price difference between veggie and meat dishes comes down to if not ingredients!

I never denied this. I'm just saying the relationship is to an extent superficial, and in quality establishments the preparation and skill of the chefs is more significant, while in cheap establishments it's the ingredients that are the biggest factor. You seem to want to lump Café Paradiso in with the cheap places, but a quick visit will tell you that you're quite wrong to do that.

Moonbaby wrote: »

But that is all beside the point because Cafe Paradiso, doesn't have a Michelin star.

Not beside the point at all. You don't have to have a star to be a top quality restaurant serving first-rate food. Are you saying that starred restaurants can charge what they like but all the rest should price themselves to suit Moonbaby?

I've no idea how many exclusively veggie places are starred, but I'd hazard a guess that it's probably somewhere between none and zero. Maybe CP will be the first, who knows?

Moonbaby wrote: »

Restaurent Patrick Guillabaud, the best restaurent in Ireland with two Michelin stars serves veggie mains from 25.

Cheapest veggie item on the Guillabaud is a potato soup for €23. Is soup a main in starred restaurants these days? I must have lost touch with food fashion.

Other options are
Wild Mushroom & Aubergine Tart €32.00
Vegetables A la Grecque €30.00
Vegetable Paella €35.00 - a full tenner more than CP's risotto!

Do you think Guillabaud's prices are also 'objectionable'?

Moonbaby wrote: »

On that basis I think that Cafe Paridiso is certainly charging too much for what it is.

Even though you've never sampled the goods :rolleyes:

Most restaurants in Ireland are charging too much for what they are, why single out one of the few where you actually get something really good that you probably couldn't have made yourself for criticism? I've not tried Ciaran's of Limerick - will do next time I'm over that way. But if they can do anything to compare with the quality of CP for under a tenner I'll be truly amazed and take back everything I've said here.

Rockbeer there is no point in having any level of discussion with you; you’re more interested in egotistical onemanship than actual facts.

As such, your opinion is entirely inconsequential and I won't waste my time reading it future.

Have a nice day.

rockbeer

So it was in support of "the actual facts" that you lied about the cost of Guillabaud?

I'm also happy to end this and let people work out for themselves who's interested in the facts and who's spouting ignorant and uninformed opinions.

Sorry it's degenerated to this level, mods.

Minder

Op - what would you serve as main course veggie fayre?

Any chance of a couple of descriptions?

Barn Owl

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE.....start your restaurant and let it be a great success for you. There simply are not enough Veggie restaurants in this country. I recently spent a lot of time on the west coast of America and was so surprised how much veggies are catered for there. I think more and more people are health aware and people who questioned my vegetarianism for years are now giving up meat etc. I think it would be ideal to set up in Rathgar or the outskirts of town. Please do this, and maybe others will follow. By the way, please do not put garlic in everything, as does Cornucopia, for fear of the meal being flavourless!! ha ha, what a joke, when are people going to realise there are a million herbs, flavours etc out there, and you DONT need garlic in everything just because it is a veggie dish. Don't knock this garlic comment until you really really think about it. Trust me, GARLIC is not always a must! Sorry just had to include that!
Full respect to you and the new restaurant....PS you better hurry! Denis Cotter has plans to open in Dublin too! He's great, dont get me wrong, but a wee bit o' competition wouldnt go astray!
Good luck
Barn Owl

Mr.Boots

Why exclude possible customers from your new venture??? Just cos your a veggie dosnt mean you cant have meat on your menu, banks are terified of loaning money to people who want to open restaurants because of the high failure rate (70% i think)
you cant afford to just appeal to a small percentage of the population and be a success.
if i were you i would have a menu with a strong veggie influence and incorporate meats that are more "animal friendly" ...for example source your animal products from small producers who take animal welfare seriously.
Promote this on your menu and in your marketing.
Im not a veggie by the way.

Peanut

Mr.Boots wrote: »

Just cos your a veggie dosnt mean you cant have meat on your menu

It doesn't, but it won't exactly endear you to them either..

Mr.Boots wrote: »

..you cant afford to just appeal to a small percentage of the population and be a success.

This is not really true, look at somewhere like Blazing Salads, they are entirely vegetarian (salads all vegan) yet they are doing fantastically well, and I'm sure a good chunk of their customers are not committed vegetarians.

Same with Cornucopia, it's constantly busy.
If you have a good product to sell, you will do well, and attract customers from outside the supposedly small target audience (which I don't believe is so small either).

Nature Boy

Mr.Boots wrote: »

Why exclude possible customers from your new venture??? Just cos your a veggie dosnt mean you cant have meat on your menu, ban

There's a market for people who want their food cooked in a meat free environment.

rockbeer

Mr.Boots wrote:

Just cos your a veggie dosnt mean you cant have meat on your menu

Well, no, but much depends on your reaons for being vegetarian. If you're implacably opposed to killing animals, it would be downright weird to suspend your principals for business purposes. It would be like caring for the environment in your personal life but running a company with a huge carbon footprint. Even if you prefer not to eat meat for health reasons alone, it might be a bit strange not to confer the same benefits on your customers.

It's hard to imagine many vegetarians being happy to follow your suggestion.

Tar.Aldarion

Mr.Boots wrote: »

Why exclude possible customers from your new venture??? Just cos your a veggie dosnt mean you cant have meat on your menu, banks are terified of loaning money to people who want to open restaurants because of the high failure rate (70% i think)
you cant afford to just appeal to a small percentage of the population and be a success.
if i were you i would have a menu with a strong veggie influence and incorporate meats that are more "animal friendly" ...for example source your animal products from small producers who take animal welfare seriously.
Promote this on your menu and in your marketing.
Im not a veggie by the way.

um, just because people eat meat that does not mean you are excluding them by having meat free dishes. It is not like they only eat meat. There are plenty of delicious foods that they can still eat...

maniac101

I think the key to a commercially successful veggie restaurant is to appeal to meat eaters, and not to alienate them. However, I don't agree that this should be done by offering meat options. Cafe Paradiso is a good example of a vegetarian restaurant that's popular with everyone. It's discreetly vegetarian, not overtly so. There's no ethical theme and no attempt made to emphasise the owner's objection to eating meat. The vegetarian message is delivered simply through the food only, not through the restaurant name or the decor. The majority of their customers are meat eaters. Cork doesn't have enough vegetarians who could pay the high prices there regularly enough to keep the place going.

OP, I'd give your location careful consideration in this regard also. CP is located across from a four-star hotel renowned for expensive and poor quality food. As a result, CP captures a lot of meat-eating corporate business. Best of luck with your new venture, and let us know when you're up and running.

Weyhey

Without a doubt there is a market for a good veggie restaurant in Dublin. I am veggie, four of my friends are veggie and my boyfriend can't eat certain meat products and we would all regularly eat in nice veggie place if there was one. We are constantly walking the streets looking in restaurant windows at menus for veggie options to little avail (Dublin Restaurants just don’t get the veggie cheese thing). 99% of my meat eating friends love veggie food too and would gladly eat veggie.

Juice Restaurant doesn’t get the crowds because the food is mediocre, Cornucopia is always jam packed but you can’t relax or take your time and it’s not a place for socialising so a fancier place would be perfect. Maybe somewhere that looks a bit like the Mario’s but with only veggie food.

Cafe Paridiso in Cork is a perfect example of a successful vegetarian restaurant but so are www.hendersonsofedinburgh.co.uk and www.davidbann.com in Edinburgh. It's hard to get a seat in any of these places. Henderson’s is like a fancier Cornucopia with relaxed seating and a winebar and has music nights (piano player or singer) and don’t do bookings, they also have a deli and around the corner a fancier reservations only bistro. David Bann’s is much fancier and harder to get a table.

Best of luck with your venture Miarosa and I have no doubt it will succeed.

cunning-doll

So excited to hear that there are plans for more quality veggie restaurants! I agree that the trick is to entice carnivores too. As long as they're presented with something tasteful,rather than their 'hippy' perceptions and the menu doesn't scare them you'll be on to a winner.

Oh and it is so important to get the wine right. Thats what would sway me, so many mid priced places serve only vinegar.

Please let us know how far along the plans are - I cant wait!