Ok fairly clueless ...

monosharp

Ok went to the gym this morning and the non-english speaking guy behind the desk made it his job for the time I was there to show me what to do and how to do it.

Normally I'd just jog at maybe 7-8km/ph for 15-20 minutes and then take a break, do a few weights, then maybe run for another 10 and head home.

Started off running today and the guy came over and made me do 40 minutes on threadmill @ 5.8km/ph covering a distance of 4.5-ish km. Now I know i wasn't exactly running at my 7-8km/ph but 5.8 is just walking.

Anyways, point being I'm fairly clueless about this stuff and when i exercised at home I went jogging with other guys and would do about 20 minutes at 7-8km/ph with them.

I'm trying to loose weight and I think the guy was trying to tell me that slower but longer was better ....

Anyways, thoughts ?

Gaz

Diet will play a major part in your goal to loose weight, check out the stickies for more info on this.

Also look into High Intensity Interval Training (HIIT), pretty good for fat loss/burn.

Basically tell yer man to **** off, get your diet sorted and get a decent work out plan. I think there is one in the stickies for beginners.

Best of luck !

monosharp

Ok how does this sound ?

Morning -> Gym -> Threadmill at 6.2km/ph for 40 minutes
10 minutes of weight machine (arms/chest thing)

Breakfast -> Gimbap (rice,tuna,vegetables wrapped in seaweed.) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kimbap
The portion would be the same as whats on display on the wiki page.

Lunch -> small orange

Dinner -> Varies. Usually some combination of rice, little meat, veg.

Am i exercising enough ? Want to loose weight.

Colm_OReilly

Ok how does this sound ?

Woefully unproductive tbh. Now if you're completley sedentary and starting something like that sure you'll get results, anything will get you some results but if you're investing so much time/energy why not have a much more efficient program.

Treadmill, not a great machine as it does the work phase of running for you, you only actively contribute to the recovery phase. A rowing machine or cross trainer would be better.

Duration, at 40 minutes you're at a pretty low intensity. You need to train at relatively high intensities as this is what delivers results.

Look at these sites for a wealth of information on exercise and routines www.simplefit.org, www.crossfit.com

As for diet, you're going long periods in the day without eating, which isn't optimal. Look to eat more (smaller) meals throughout the day.

Check out www.thepaleodiet.com, you're diet should be based around meat, veg, nuts, seeds, some fruit, little starch and no sugar.

Best of luck,
Colm

mack1

Mate - that is terrible! Did you read the stickies like Darth Homer said at all? How did you come up with (a) 3 meals a day? and (b) a small orange for lunch? I've had indoor pets that have eaten more!

I know you are trying to lose weight but eating an orange for lunch is NOT the way to do it - you need to eat a proper diet, read the stickies, pay particular attention to the diet & nutrition bits. Eat 6 meals a day, eat protein with each, use the carbs for breakfast and before & after the gym etc etc

As for exercise - like Colm said - up the intensity, 6km/h is walking pace - do 2mins at 6 then 2 mins at 14ish etc etc and do that for 15/20 mins or so.
And drop the arm/chest machine, it'd doing nothing for you.

But bottom line - for weight loss, sort that diet out!
Good luck!

monosharp

aw man i was actually feeling good about myself doing that ...

Ok Will check out the stickies etc.

Gaz

Seriously the stickies are packed full of great info. Dont be afriad to eat. Just eat the right stuff , you will loose weight with your current "diet" but it will be fat and muscle.

As Mack says, 6 smaller meals , protein with each and getting the timings rights ... no carbs in the evening and get as much of your food from wholegrain sources.

Also, look into the program in the stickies (posted by Transform) it will give you a very good weights program to start with. More muscle means your burning more calories even when your just sitting around doing nothin !

neuro-praxis

I often wonder when posters like the above advocate reading the stickies, while offering contradictory advice to what's in them, whether or not they've actually read the stickies themselves.

Jak is very clear that carbs in the evening are fine.

mack1

neuro-praxis wrote: »

I often wonder when posters like the above advocate reading the stickies, while offering contradictory advice to what's in them, whether or not they've actually read the stickies themselves.

Jak is very clear that carbs in the evening are fine.

Tis a fair point you make, but I think you are looking at things the wrong way. Firstly, the stickies are not written by some guru who knows all - they are written and added to by regular posters, like you and I - only difference is that they tend to be from the more knowledgeable posters - but even they dont agree on everything.

Second, fitness & health advice in general, not just here, is always somewhat contradictory. There are no absolute "correct" answers. Experts who study nothing else but, can still disagree on fairly major things - it's the nature of the beast. No matter how many people will suggest to a poster to cut out sugary drinks there will always be somebody who replies with "I drink 2 bottles of coke a day and I lost a stone" etc etc

There usually is some general consensus, around here anyway, on what is generally the best way to go about achieving a particular goal - be it weight loss, strength gain etc - but there is always somebody who will achieve that goal another way. The beauty of the stickies is not that they provide absolute answers, or a quick fix step by step solution - they provide a starting point, a basis for knowledge gathering and differing opinions on certain things. At the end of the day the most important thing in your quest for better fitness is knowledge.

---

More specifically to your point "carbs evening = bad" - nothing is bad as such - it depends hugely on you circumstances. If you want to lose weight then carbs late in the evening would not be a good idea - they're not gonna kill you or anything, it just would not be the optimum thing for weightloss. But if you train in the evenings then you would need them - so again, not an absolute rule.

OK, bit of rant there - I better get back to work....
Hope that was of some help!

Vegeta

neuro-praxis wrote: »

Jak is very clear that carbs in the evening are fine.

Just playing devil's advocate here but why do you believe what Jak says? Again I mean nobody any disrespect here just throwing it out there.

Does he offer any proof other than his opinion? There are loads of people who argue the opposite side of this arguement?

Personally I don't know which side I come down on for this arguement. Usually just eat them when I know I'll need them

As I am low carbing at the moment I must say the difference is shocking.

Gaz

Yes, ive read the stickies.

If you have a read of them you will also see some points about macro-nutirent timing futher down. Unless your training in the evening , you want to be cutting down on the carbs in the evening if your trying to loose weight.

Cadrach

And just to offer another angle... it is OK to stick to 3 meals a day, this can work perfectly well. But an orange for lunch is not enough... try a big chicken salad along with it or healthy brown-bread open sandwich. And I would cut down carbs in the evening too. Your diet is very carb heavy... are you Korean? If it is a cultural thing, e.g., you can't stomach steak and broccoli for dinner, then there are other options you can look at for a weight-loss diet

Vegeta

Cadrach wrote: »

And just to offer another angle... it is OK to stick to 3 meals a day, this can work perfectly well

yes but if he can get 6 meals in then he should

monosharp

Cadrach wrote: »

And just to offer another angle... it is OK to stick to 3 meals a day, this can work perfectly well. But an orange for lunch is not enough... try a big chicken salad along with it or healthy brown-bread open sandwich. And I would cut down carbs in the evening too. Your diet is very carb heavy... are you Korean? If it is a cultural thing, e.g., you can't stomach steak and broccoli for dinner, then there are other options you can look at for a weight-loss diet

.......

Ok now your really confusing me.

I'll eat anything, I'm really not picky. So your saying I shouldn't be eating so much veg and/or rice ? And I should be eating more meat and .. why broccoli ?

At home I would have eaten a lot of meat with my dinner. Maybe even twice as much potato/rice then meat and veg. Isn't that carb heavy ?

The only veg I used to eat was onion.

I'm now eating a lot less quantity wise, and what I thought was a lot more healthy, at least healthy for losing weight. I mean, I'm eating very little meat/fish, and more veg then I ever have. I'm also eating less rice then I would have normally at home.

How is this bad ?

Breakfast -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kimbap
Lunch -> Orange/Grapes
Dinner -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kimchi_bokkeumbap
Snack -> Usually just kimchi -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kimchi

mack1

No mate - what he is saying is not to eat a lot of high GI foods, refined white carbs - such as rice. Especially later on in the day if you are not doing exercise then.
You can eat lean meat, and knock yourself out on the veg there!

High-level summary:
- 5/6 small meals per day (every 3/4 hrs)
- eat protein with EVERY one of them (lean meat, fish, etc)
- try keep the startchy carbs (bread, pasta, rice, etc) to the earlier meals (unless you are exercising late when you will need the energy)
- eat lots of veg!
- eat fruit too, but NOT as the only part of a meal!

So for example, the dinner you have posted above seems to have a lot of rice in it - so I would try and eat it earlier on in the day - that would be my lunch.
Then for dinner I would have some stir-fry meat & veg with no rice.
Theres 3 of your 6 already - then between breakfast & lunch have your fruit there, along with some protein - egg whites or something. Then between lunch and dinner maybe have some tuna and some mixed nuts.
Making some sense?

Roper

monosharp wrote: »

Ok now your really confusing me.

I'll eat anything, I'm really not picky. So your saying I shouldn't be eating so much veg and/or rice ? And I should be eating more meat and .. why broccoli ?

Well thats the problem isn't it? There's a lot of contradictory advice available and I would say that most of it is rendered utterly useless by the sheer amount of it.

Macronutrient intake? Who the fvck actually uses this as a dietary model? Ridiculous! This sort of psuedo-intellectual babble only serves to drive people away from exercise and makes a hard task seem complicated too.

I coach people, and occasionally I get really out of shape people who want to do something with their free time. What I say is simple, work hard here in the gym, get a diet that will aid you in that work, and then work hard here some more. Invariably, the people who get results are the hard workers, even if their diet doesn't change radically.

Monosharp, I'm not going to say you can eat "anything" you want as long as you're working hard, but if you ignore the debate and most of the advice in this thread and just start to work hard and eat whole foods, you'll be seeing results fairly soon.

mack1

Roper - while I agree with the sentiment, I don't think it's fair to discount the advice given above.

Roper

mack1 wrote: »

Roper - while I agree with the sentiment, I don't think it's fair to discount the advice given above.

Its not that the advice is bad but its information overload for someone who wants simple goals.

I'm going to repeat a sentiment I've expressed in another thread, the fittest people I know wouldn't know half of the stuff above. Their life is work hard, eat when hungry.

Hanley

Roper wrote: »

I'm going to repeat a sentiment I've expressed in another thread, the fittest people I know wouldn't know half of the stuff above. Their life is work hard, eat when hungry.

Yeah, but that's way to simple isn't it?

No body wants to work hard. They all want a picture perfect diet and training cycle that requires minimal effort but gives perfect gains. It's a shame life's not perfect!!

My personal thoughts on all this is that losing weight is simple. It's simple but it's not easy.

ali.c

monosharp wrote: »

.......

I'm now eating a lot less quantity wise, and what I thought was a lot more healthy, at least healthy for losing weight. I mean, I'm eating very little meat/fish, and more veg then I ever have. I'm also eating less rice then I would have normally at home.

How is this bad ?

Breakfast -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kimbap
Lunch -> Orange/Grapes
Dinner -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kimchi_bokkeumbap
Snack -> Usually just kimchi -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kimchi

Right, you can eat alot less quanity wise and it not be productive to your goals. Now i dont really know a whole lot about the korean food you linked too (your alot braver with your food choices than me). But lets put it this way, your body needs energy, if you are active it requires more energy. Eating an orange for lunch is like being a euro worth of petrol in your car and then expecting it to be able to drive 50miles. Heres where the analogy kinda doesnt work but you are looking for a reasonable deficit but not too much. You want your food choices to be adequate to give you a reasonable amount of energy. Plus undereating can be bad for your moral and motivation. If you are bloody starving its alot harder to resist a bar from the vending machine or whatever it is your weakness is.

Hanley wrote:

No body wants to work hard. They all want a picture perfect diet and training cycle that requires minimal effort but gives perfect gains. It's a shame life's not perfect!!

My personal thoughts on all this is that losing weight is simple. It's simple but it's not easy.

Sure its simple and yeah its hard work. I would disagree that no-one wants to work hard though.

Hanley

*People aren't prepared to do the neccessary work required and step outside their comfort zones.

Anyone can go for a 20 minute walk every night in the hopes of losing weight, but it's not actually gonna be that effective, it's mostly good intentions gone awry. They do it because it's realatively easy and doesn't require as great a commitment as making dietary changes or doing something more intense in the gym.

ali.c

Hanley wrote: »

*People aren't prepared to do the neccessary work required and step outside their comfort zones.

Anyone can go for a 20 minute walk every night in the hopes of losing weight, but it's not actually gonna be that effective, it's mostly good intentions gone awry. They do it because it's realatively easy and doesn't require as great a commitment as making dietary changes or doing something more intense in the gym.

Prehaps, and i would agree with you that it is good intentions gone arwy, but then for someone starting out a 20min walk everynight could be a medium intensive workout. High intensity workouts really depend on the relative starting point and again it really does depend on the individual involved. Plus again a 20min walk every evening is consistent.

The whole comfort zone thing, there is so much conflicting information and yup alot of talk about optimising things. Its very bloody confusing, but the whole optimisation is something that should be undertaken when the big things are in place.

OP, dont overly worry about getting everything perfect to begin with. Keep it nice and simple to begin and try to eat whole unprocessed foods. If you are confused about things could you be more specific. So this is just a sample day of what i eat*, it is by no means perfect but just to give you an idea.

8:30 Porridge + whey protein
11:30 Bananna, natural yogurut and mixed seeds
14:15 Chicken breast, salad and 1 slice wholemeal bread
17:00 Natual Yogurut and seeds and an apple
20:30 Chicken breast and Veg (Brocilli, peppers, sugar snap peas)

Now i am not recommending that you eat the above, but its my interpretation of the information held in the stickies if that makes sense and of course scaled for my calorie requirment.

*or at least used to eat, playing around with things at the moment.

Edit: I forgot to answer your question on the why eat more meat and less carbs. http://www.f-heit.com/readTopic.do?id=531356, this article imho is a good introduction to understanding the maze of nutritional articles.

neuro-praxis

mack1 wrote:

If you want to lose weight then carbs late in the evening would not be a good idea - they're not gonna kill you or anything, it just would not be the optimum thing for weightloss.

I eat carbs (brown rice, noodles, brown pasta, new potatoes, wholewheat pitta, wholewheat bread, wholewheat wraps) every single night and this has never hindered my weight-loss in the slightest. Weight-loss is achieved through a calorie deficit, end of. (You can even lose weight by eating three Mars bars a day if you want. It will work if it creates a deficit. You just won't be able to maintain it, your body will fall to pieces and you'll be sick as a dog. ) Just throwing that in there.

Vegeta wrote: »

Just playing devil's advocate here but why do you believe what Jak says?

I never said I did (well, until I wrote the above!). I believe what Jak says incidentally because my experience matches his opinion. I was just pointing out a little inconsistency...the advice in the stickies is often contradicted in a big way by the regular posters.

I don't necessarily even think that's a bad thing. I believe stating what works for you is pretty much the ideal. That way folks can work out what works for them. To say, "When I eat carbs at night, this hinders my weight loss" is a whole lot more useful than "Avoid carbs at night".

mack1

neuro-praxis wrote:

I eat carbs... ...every single night and this has never hindered my weight-loss in the slightest.

Fair enough.

monosharp wrote:

I'm trying to loose weight ....

.... Anyways, thoughts ?

Anyway - OP asked for advice and I gave, I do not claim to be any sort of expert, just speaking from personal experience that's all. I never said that eating carbs late at night would not result in weight loss, just in my own experience, and that of many others, it has been more effective when they lay off the carbs at night. If you don't want to do this for whatever reason then that's fine too.

neuro-praxis

Hay mack1 - you attributed one of my quotes to monosharp (an affliction for anyone!!) - just so you know who said what.

mack1

my bad!

fixed.

Cadrach

Roper wrote: »

Well thats the problem isn't it? There's a lot of contradictory advice available and I would say that most of it is rendered utterly useless by the sheer amount of it.

Macronutrient intake? Who the fvck actually uses this as a dietary model? Ridiculous! This sort of psuedo-intellectual babble only serves to drive people away from exercise and makes a hard task seem complicated too.

I coach people, and occasionally I get really out of shape people who want to do something with their free time. What I say is simple, work hard here in the gym, get a diet that will aid you in that work, and then work hard here some more. Invariably, the people who get results are the hard workers, even if their diet doesn't change radically.

Monosharp, I'm not going to say you can eat "anything" you want as long as you're working hard, but if you ignore the debate and most of the advice in this thread and just start to work hard and eat whole foods, you'll be seeing results fairly soon.

I disagree Roper... this "pseudo-intellectual babble" is a few people giving advice from different angles. Unless you have a learning disability, there is no reason why you shouldn't take the time and sift through the advice, and educate yourself a bit in addition to your hard work. There are always grey areas, and there will be some conflicting advice, and if you don't understand something then you spend some time in the evening researching it. The OP confessed to being clueless, where is a good starting point? Ask someone you know, or go on the internet and start digging.

Are you advising monosharp to ignore the debate here? What is the value of that? There is nothing wrong with being a bit confused at the start, getting to the bottom of the confusion is how you learn. I'm not denying the fact that keeping it simple and starting, just going to the gym, working hard, eating relatively healthily, will be a huge benefit to anyone starting off. I'm just wondering why, when someone comes here asking for a bit of information, you urge him to block his ears and ignore it?

Cadrach

neuro-praxis wrote: »

I eat carbs (brown rice, noodles, brown pasta, new potatoes, wholewheat pitta, wholewheat bread, wholewheat wraps) every single night and this has never hindered my weight-loss in the slightest. Weight-loss is achieved through a calorie deficit, end of. (You can even lose weight by eating three Mars bars a day if you want. It will work if it creates a deficit. You just won't be able to maintain it, your body will fall to pieces and you'll be sick as a dog. ) Just throwing that in there.

What do you eat for breakfast and lunch? As you point out, there is more to healthy weight loss than just a calorific deficit, and my experience matches t-ha's, (also from the stickies):

t-ha wrote:

Eat carbs when you know you’ll use them! Nobody gets fat because they eat too much oats in the morning. Plan your carbs to start with decent levels at breakfast and taper off in the early evening if you’re active during the day and not in the evening. The principal thing keeping me overweight before was the late night carb-ups. Noodles on bread! What was I thinking! . Now most of my late evening carbs are from vegetables.

When you're active and working hard during the day, your daily quota of carbs is put to better use. That's why I eat a big bowl of porridge in the morning, keeps me going strong until lunch time. To compensate, I don't eat a lot of carbs with my dinner.

neuro-praxis wrote: »

I never said I did (well, until I wrote the above!). I believe what Jak says incidentally because my experience matches his opinion. I was just pointing out a little inconsistency...the advice in the stickies is often contradicted in a big way by the regular posters.

A lot of the advice in the stickies is a starting point, they are not a set of commandments. Some parts are ambiguous or incomplete, and any sentence could be taken out of context.

Roper

Cadrach wrote: »

I disagree Roper... this "pseudo-intellectual babble" is a few people giving advice from different angles. Unless you have a learning disability, there is no reason why you shouldn't take the time and sift through the advice,

Firstly pal if you're going to come on here and start suggesting people have learning disabilities or a lack of education, I'd suggest you come see me face to face and discuss it. You don't need an IQ test to see of you deserve to get fit. And there's certainly no need to get into name calling.

Now thats out of the way, I'm just pointing out that most of what the people are saying above is useless to a beginner. Information overload is occasionally as bad as a lack of information. Also, I would once again question anyone on here's qualifications to make absolute statements about fitness matters. Opinion is fine, as someone has pointed out above.

Hanley

Roper wrote: »

Also, I would once again question anyone on here's qualifications to make absolute statements about fitness matters.

I would absolutely agree. Great post as usual.

Transform

i would have to agree with some of ropers comments as beginners need to keep everything very very simple however diet does play a massive role in weight loss yet can be kept simple by just cutting out the obvious crap (which most beginners need to do).

Even the worst program/diet done extremely well will produce results

columok

Agreeing with Roper I think aswell there's a syndrome with people "looking to start" getting fit and living healthily. (This isn’t a comment on anyone specific here) The problem is by "looking to start" your postponing the event for a magical time when your fully informed when in reality this moment right should be that start. Living healthy doesn’t start with that first trip to the gym. It starts with your next snack. It starts when your order a Caesar salad in Eddie Rockets instead of the triple malt, double take and banana split.

As Baz said if you continually eat better food and do some exercise you have to get healthier.

Vegeta

I fail to see how

Don't eat crap
Eat 6 smaller meals a day (each containing protein)
trail off carbs later in the day
Work hard in the gym

is complicated advice

I agree information overload is a bad thing but I don't think this is a case of it

There was some debate about wether or not to cut carbs in the evening but that was a side issue

neuro-praxis

Cadrach wrote: »

What do you eat for breakfast and lunch?

This is off-topic, but as it might actually be useful to the OP I'll answer it. Remember OP, you will need to work out yourself how many calories your body burns at rest, and then subtract approx 500kcal a day to lose 1lb a week. Combined with exercise you will lose more. (Also as your weight drops, the amount your body burns at rest will drop, so your calorie intake will need to reduce in order to avoid a plateau.)

Breakfast:
Porridge made with water, eaten with low-fat milk and topped with berries OR
Eggs (scrambled or boiled) with wholewheat toast and some fruit OR
Fruit salad topped with natural yoghurt and some seeds OR
Baked beans, poached egg, turkey bacon, grilled tomatoes and mushrooms

Lunch (you can add fruit and natural yoghurt to each of these):
Soup, salad, wholewheat bread OR
Chicken/turkey/ham sandwich/pitta/wrap with salad OR
Sliced meat and cold boiled egg with salad OR
Medium portion wholewheat pasta tossed in home-made sauce OR
Wholewheat cracker breads with cheese and sliced meat and salad OR
Chicken breast with loads of veg and new potatoes OR
The occasional 6 inch Italian turkey salad sub (Friday treat!)

I eat carbs with every meal, but 95% of the time they are unrefined carbs, and my general rule in terms of what is on my plate is 25% protein (meat, fish, egg etc.), 25% carbs and 50% fresh veggies.

OP I hope this is helpful to you.

Hanley

Vegeta wrote: »

I fail to see how

Don't eat crap
Eat 6 smaller meals a day (each containing protein)
trail off carbs later in the day
Work hard in the gym

is complicated advice

I agree information overload is a bad thing but I don't think this is a case of it

There was some debate about wether or not to cut carbs in the evening but that was a side issue

It's not. The problem is when people start talking about macro splits, detailed meal timinig and composition, optimal fat sources etc etc it becomes a lot to take in and is a HUGE change for most people to attempt to undertake.

So much so that they often think "oh I have to do ALL of this or I'm going to get no where, I better take my time and really plan it all out". And they spend so much time planning and looking for the optimum that they never get started.

ali.c

Hanley wrote: »

It's not. The problem is when people start talking about macro splits, detailed meal timinig and composition, optimal fat sources etc etc it becomes a lot to take in and is a HUGE change for most people to attempt to undertake.

Jaysus, okay so where the hell was that mentioned? it was mentioned in terms of cutting carbs out in the evening or keeping high carb meals around training times. Some people do find that more effective and as stated by other posters there are other people who find that it really doesnt impact that much on their weight-loss goals. No one mentioned detailed meal timing or optimal fat sources. Sure there is additional information out there on these things but that either here nor there.

Hanley wrote: »

So much so that they often think "oh I have to do ALL of this or I'm going to get no where, I better take my time and really plan it all out". And they spend so much time planning and looking for the optimum that they never get started.

true, then some people prefer to take the gung-ho all or nothing approach, some people mind a more measured approach more sustainable. Myself personally, i find it easier to keep a balanced diet if i get the big stuff right and too much focus on the little stuff means i dont get the big stuff right.

fitness and diet come easier for some people, tbh i think its because they also sustained some level of fitness etc over the years. for others making sustainable progress towards there fitness and weightloss goals requires more work in terms of making a lifestlye change. People have different starting points and different ways of reaching the goal. One way or other making some serious changes with regard to your lifestlye and taking personal responsibility for those changes is daunting to most people.

@Roper, i agree a lot of fit people who are in great shape that i know do not follow strict rules with regard to diet. It takes a while to build up your training levels to a level of an experienced person. I do agree with you find a diet that works for you. In the meantime to get your bf down, diet can go along way towards meeting those goals and of course if you are training hard, adequate food for recovery is important.

For all the talk about information overload, i'd imagine that almost everyone on here agrees that "an orange" is not lunch!

Hanley

ali.c wrote: »

Jaysus, okay so where the hell was that mentioned? it was mentioned in terms of cutting carbs out in the evening or keeping high carb meals around training times. Some people do find that more effective and as stated by other posters there are other people who find that it really doesnt impact that much on their weight-loss goals. No one mentioned detailed meal timing or optimal fat sources. Sure there is additional information out there on these things but that either here nor there.

As this is really outside of the scope of this thread I'll be brief.

I wasn't talking about this thread specifically. I was talking IN GENERAL. You know someone who comes on, looking for advice, and instead of being told to keep it simple they are expected to completly overhaul their whole diet. While this may be effective, it's a great way to discourage a beginner from even starting.

ali.c

Hanley wrote: »

As this is really outside of the scope of this thread I'll be brief.

I wasn't talking about this thread specifically. I was talking IN GENERAL. You know someone who comes on, looking for advice, and instead of being told to keep it simple they are expected to completly overhaul their whole diet. While this may be effective, it's a great way to discourage a beginner from even starting.

that was kinda my point was really there is very little talk about those things when some posts looking for advice on starting out (unlike say t-nation or other forums). If someones diet is absolute cac then like it or not sometimes they do need to make big changes.

Now back OT
The best advice i have ever heard with regard to weightloss and getting started training are as follows

• Take up an activity that you enjoy and can incorporate into your lifestlye
• Eat whole foods, unprocessed were possible
• Eat small meals frequently including protein in each meal
• Set yourself goals as to what you want to achieve

nesf

Cadrach wrote: »

Unless you have a learning disability, there is no reason why you shouldn't take the time and sift through the advice, and educate yourself a bit in addition to your hard work.

Because people have lives and have a million and one things to potentially sift through and educate themselves on. If people want to go into more depth about a subject, encourage them and aid them but arguing that everyone should do it misses the point of forums like this really.

Hanley wrote: »

Anyone can go for a 20 minute walk every night in the hopes of losing weight, but it's not actually gonna be that effective, it's mostly good intentions gone awry.

It depends on their starting point. For someone who is morbidly obese and living an extremely sedentary lifestyle, 20 minutes walk every night might be an excellent (and achievable) starting point. All these things are relative to the individual etc.

Vegeta

Hanley wrote: »

It's not. The problem is when people start talking about macro splits, detailed meal timinig and composition, optimal fat sources etc etc it becomes a lot to take in and is a HUGE change for most people to attempt to undertake.

So much so that they often think "oh I have to do ALL of this or I'm going to get no where, I better take my time and really plan it all out". And they spend so much time planning and looking for the optimum that they never get started.

yup, I do get the impression that some posters spend more time researching than doing, I myself love to know as much as I can about most of my hobbies, but that doesn't suit everyone. I'm a bit of a geek like that

Roper

Clearly I have to explain myself since I seem to be misinterpreted all over the place in this thread!

I'm not saying any advice that's been given above is wrong necessarilly, just that a lot of it is debatable.

Now if I were someone's personal trainer (which I'm not!), I would say, come in here to the gym, and work like fvck. Done? Okay, now lets work on what you're eating day to day.

Re: my point about many of the fittest guys i know not eating right, its totally true. A mate of mine (30+ for those of you who might think he's a 21 year old high metabolism type) eats crap, drinks like a fish and can still outlift and outrun most guys. Why? Because he works like a beast in the gym. Do I agree with his diet? No, not at all, I think its inefficient and harmful in the long run. But the reality is he's doing it and not talking about it.

As a second example, I spent a while with a fighter a few weeks ago as he and I wolfed down some McDonalds after training and then went for some beers. This guy is savagely fit, unbeatable cardio. If I asked him when if he timed his meals or was he worried about his macronutrient intake, he'd probably ask me what I was on. But he goes to training and he does it. He doesn't talk about it, or debate it, or think about what he's going to eat afterwards, he just does it.

Do you need a good diet? Yes, of course. Do you need to watch what you eat? Yes, of course. But you also need to start, and if you turn around to people who want a SIMPLE effective plan to get going and tell them 100 different things to do, they will do none of the above, or they'll spend so much time trying to perfect it that they'll never just do it.

Cadrach

nesf wrote: »

Because people have lives and have a million and one things to potentially sift through and educate themselves on. If people want to go into more depth about a subject, encourage them and aid them but arguing that everyone should do it misses the point of forums like this really.

You think this is a reason to hold back information and retain your advice rather than get it out there? If a guy who is clueless comes on here looking for a clue, then it is because he does want to dig into a subject he doesn't know anything about. I think you must have misinterpreted my post, because I'm outlining exactly what I think is great about forums like this - the confluence of advice from different angles, each the tip of its own iceberg.

And Roper, I wasn't implying that you had a learning disability, merely using that as a fair reason why one might choose to turn away a wealth of information. There was certainly no name calling. There are a lot of sensitive people on this board just waiting to misinterpret something and pounce. Chill out lads.

nesf

Cadrach wrote: »

You think this is a reason to hold back information and retain your advice rather than get it out there?

That depends on what the information is, what your advice is and what the person is looking for. There's a complicated and a simple version of an answer to most questions. Sometimes people want to know all the gory details, other times they just want simple directions.

Cadrach

nesf wrote: »

That depends on what the information is, what your advice is and what the person is looking for. There's a complicated and a simple version of an answer to most questions. Sometimes people want to know all the gory details, other times they just want simple directions.

So if you're looking for simple directions, you can skip over the gory details. Doesn't mean that posters should hold back the gory details.

Hanley

Roper wrote: »

Clearly I have to explain myself since I seem to be misinterpreted all over the place in this thread!

I'm not saying any advice that's been given above is wrong necessarilly, just that a lot of it is debatable.

Now if I were someone's personal trainer (which I'm not!), I would say, come in here to the gym, and work like fvck. Done? Okay, now lets work on what you're eating day to day.

Re: my point about many of the fittest guys i know not eating right, its totally true. A mate of mine (30+ for those of you who might think he's a 21 year old high metabolism type) eats crap, drinks like a fish and can still outlift and outrun most guys. Why? Because he works like a beast in the gym. Do I agree with his diet? No, not at all, I think its inefficient and harmful in the long run. But the reality is he's doing it and not talking about it.

As a second example, I spent a while with a fighter a few weeks ago as he and I wolfed down some McDonalds after training and then went for some beers. This guy is savagely fit, unbeatable cardio. If I asked him when if he timed his meals or was he worried about his macronutrient intake, he'd probably ask me what I was on. But he goes to training and he does it. He doesn't talk about it, or debate it, or think about what he's going to eat afterwards, he just does it.

Do you need a good diet? Yes, of course. Do you need to watch what you eat? Yes, of course. But you also need to start, and if you turn around to people who want a SIMPLE effective plan to get going and tell them 100 different things to do, they will do none of the above, or they'll spend so much time trying to perfect it that they'll never just do it.

God these sound like guys after my own heart. I know I catch alot of flak for what I eat, but like the guys you mentioned I feel pushing it in training is more important and more beneficial than worrying too much about what you're eating.

I guess guys like the ones you mentioned can afford to be more lax with their diet because of the shape they're already in, but I do think most people are TOO strict, or at least try to be, and then don't put in the neccessary effort in the gym to match the tortures they put themselves thru outside of it. And they end up coming short of what they could of done if they trained hard. It's a shame really!!

nesf

Cadrach wrote: »

So if you're looking for simple directions, you can skip over the gory details. Doesn't mean that posters should hold back the gory details.

You're assuming that they can figure out what they can ignore and what they need to pay attention to. Which isn't always a safe assumption to be making, to be honest.

Cadrach

nesf wrote: »

You're assuming that they can figure out what they can ignore and what they need to pay attention to. Which isn't always a safe assumption to be making, to be honest.

That's part and parcel of an internet forum. If the OP doesn't want to deal with an information overload, and doesn't have the time to sift, then he can specify it in his post and posters will keep it simple. In my threads, I always prefer people to speak up and spill their guts, and if I find that there is too much information, or if it is too advanced for me, then I have a choice - dig into it and learn more, or discard it. I don't know why you're nitpicking into such depth on a purely theoretical level. If you want to give your argument some substance, then why don't you point to where exactly in this thread you think the posters should have refrained from giving their advice?

nesf

Cadrach wrote: »

I don't know why you're nitpicking into such depth on a purely theoretical level.

Because I enjoy nitpicking on a purely theoretical level?

Cadrach

nesf wrote: »

Because I enjoy nitpicking on a purely theoretical level?

I can see how a fella could derive a lot a pleasure and satisfaction out of it

Roper

Cadrach wrote: »

And Roper, I wasn't implying that you had a learning disability, merely using that as a fair reason why one might choose to turn away a wealth of information. There was certainly no name calling. There are a lot of sensitive people on this board just waiting to misinterpret something and pounce. Chill out lads.

It's called inference. And even assuming you didn't intend to infer it, what sort of idiotic thing is that to argue with anyway? "if you had a learning disability you wouldn't take this advice". It's like saying, "if you had only one leg you wouldn't be able to do squats" it's blatantly obvious. Interestingly enough however, a friend of mine is dyslexic and wouldn't be able to get through this topic but he seems to do alright on the fitness front. Odd isn't it?

Hanley wrote:

I do think most people are TOO strict, or at least try to be, and then don't put in the neccessary effort in the gym to match the tortures they put themselves thru outside of it.

I don't think there's neccessarily any torture in fitness, especially in doing something you enjoy. But on internet fora, you must also remember that information is power. I could name and shame here- I know of one prominent poster on here who is out of shape but who offers "expert" advice. But I'll leave them to their bullsh1tting. However your ability to spout facts and figures is what's important here, and its a great place to argue about propellerhead stuff and come across as though you know your stuff having perused the internet a bit, but not really achieved what you're advising others on.

g'em

The very first rule of the forum charter is: Please Get Your Facts Straight.

Hopefully by and large we try to stick to this. But if you feel there are posts that are don't comply with that or posters are being misleading, use the report post function.

Given that this is an internet forum, we ultimately have no way of 'proving' the worthiness of the poster giving the information. Qualifications are of course great, but aren't infallible. Equally, real-world application and results has great merits, but what works for one may not work for another. And if you aren't a statuesque specimen of physical perfection does that mean that the information you provide is inaccurate? Or just that you haven't gotten around to doing it yourself?

There is indeed a lot of information to hand and it can be grossly overwhelming for someone who is starting out. But that's why we have a forum - to discuss the information given in the stickies.

So like I said, if you have a problem with another poster or a post, please use the report post button. This being the interweb, individuals can read the text of posts with different meanings to the way they were intended and it can get a bit messy. So instead throwing strops at other posters (and there's a lot if it going on, not just one individual) can we get back to discussing the information at hand?