If God Loves everyone and wants us to be saved.....

Akrasia

Then why are there so many people who don't believe in the Christian God?

Never mind the free will argument for a minute (because it doesn't make a whole lot of sense in this context) Considering the fact that we are supposed to believe in god because he 'revealed' himself to us, If he wants us to be saved, and he's so omniscient, why did he make the 'proof' of his existence so obscure and so easy to cast doubt on.

I can only draw one of 3 conclusions.
1. God does not exist
2. God does not want us to be saved
3 God wants us to be saved, but is incompetent

Time Magazine

4. God exists and I'm making false conclusions about His emphasis on faith.

Akrasia

Ibid wrote: »

4. God exists and I'm making false conclusions about His emphasis on faith.

I posted this in the Christianity forum because I wanted to keep it narrow and specific to this one particular God and it's related literature.

I didn't really want to talk about 'faith'. I want to know why so many creatures that are supposedly created by God, who wants us to believe in him (more than wants, demands), Why are there such awful lot of people who are looking very hard for reasons to believe in God, but because of severe deficiencies in his own explanations, and his own refusal to acknowledge modern problems, are unable to accept the flaws in logic required to believe in him.

If god wants us to be saved, why doesn't he try even a tiny bit harder.

Why is he so shy?

I'll say it again, either he doesn't want us to be saved (in which case people who don't believed are already screwed by the simple virtue that God has already abandoned us)
Or He doesn't exist, or he is too incompetent to communicate the simple message of his own existence.

Demonstrating your own existence is the easiest thing for anyone to do.

Fanny Cradock

It's a valid question. First off, one could point to Jesus dying as evidence of him trying just that little bit harder.

Fanny Cradock

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

It's a valid question. First off, one could point to Jesus dying as evidence of him trying just that little bit harder.

An omnipotent god doesn't need to "try"

Fanny Cradock

bluewolf wrote: »

An omnipotent god doesn't need to "try"

Yes, good point. But I was being a tiny bit sarcastic there, bluewolf.

robindch

akrasia wrote:

If he wants us to be saved, and he's so omniscient, why did he make the 'proof' of his existence so obscure and so easy to cast doubt on.

Your three options assume the truth of the conclusion you're questioning. A better list would include an option "4, none of the above or not applicable because the basis is false."

One could, for example, point out that the modern christian understanding of "saving" is (a) currently impossible to disprove and (b) offers an infinite reward (staying alive forever) for a tiny outlay (believing something). As such, it's reasonable to ask whether people would believe it anyway, regardless of whether or not it's true. Particularly when there's a very well-funded, worldwide industry, employing millions of people, whose sole aim is to get people to believe it.

Fanny Cradock

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Yes, good point. But I was being a tiny bit sarcastic there, bluewolf.

So do you think JC dying was enough or not...?
I can't quite tell

hairyheretic

How much of a sacrifice is dying if you're going to come back to life afterwards?

Asiaprod

hairyheretic wrote: »

How much of a sacrifice is dying if you're going to come back to life afterwards?

Thats an interesting point I have not see here before.

Akrasia

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

It's a valid question. First off, one could point to Jesus dying as evidence of him trying just that little bit harder.

People die all of the time. People who claim to be the son of god die all of the time. If you make an extraordinary claim, then you must provide extraordinary evidence.
Why would God give us a critical mind and a lust for truth, and then damn us to hell for not believing in something that there is no real evidence for. (No real evidence that JC was the son of God or that he rose from the dead other than hearsay and chinese whispers, none of which would stand up in a court.

If God wants us to be 'saved' then he would give us a fair chance. What he has done is said Here are 10 Doors, behind one of them is an amazing reward, behind the other 9 are eternal suffering. There are 10 people to help you, each person will tell you why you should open one door. 9 of them will be lying to you or misinforming you, you have to choose the right door.

What chance does that give anyone? The logical thing to do would be to not open any door and live your life as though the doors didn't exist.

There are passages in the bible that suggest that God does intend that the vast vast majority of people will choose the wrong door or will not be deemed worthy to get into heaven.

'Many are called, but few are chosen'

BrianCalgary

Akrasia wrote: »

People die all of the time. People who claim to be the son of god die all of the time. If you make an extraordinary claim, then you must provide extraordinary evidence.
Why would God give us a critical mind and a lust for truth, and then damn us to hell for not believing in something that there is no real evidence for. (No real evidence that JC was the son of God or that he rose from the dead other than hearsay and chinese whispers, none of which would stand up in a court.

I would suggest reading 'Evidence thatDemands a Verdict by Josh McDowell and you will find that your statement above is quite false.

Akrasia wrote: »

If God wants us to be 'saved' then he would give us a fair chance. What he has done is said Here are 10 Doors, behind one of them is an amazing reward, behind the other 9 are eternal suffering. There are 10 people to help you, each person will tell you why you should open one door. 9 of them will be lying to you or misinforming you, you have to choose the right door.

What chance does that give anyone? The logical thing to do would be to not open any door and live your life as though the doors didn't exist.

There are passages in the bible that suggest that God does intend that the vast vast majority of people will choose the wrong door or will not be deemed worthy to get into heaven.

'Many are called, but few are chosen'

Many are called, few listen. Your analogy above is quite incomplete.
Each door would have a book that came along with it. Do you follow the one that is written by one man who wishes many wives - Joseph Smith (Mormonism).
One man - Mohammed
One man - Jehovah Witness

or a compilation of books written by 40 different authors, three continents, three languages, over 40 generations, in times of peace, war, joy, struggles. And all those books tell a part of the same story: God's redemption of mankind and His influence in teh lives of man.

Now you can read the books and check the evidence, and it is all there.

robindch

AsiaProd wrote:

hairyheretic wrote:

How much of a sacrifice is dying if you're going to come back to life afterwards?

Thats an interesting point I have not see here before.

Turned up in the creationism thread a couple of times -- don't say you're not reading every word of it?!!!

Last time it came up, I seem to recall that it was in relation to suicide bombers and why there were so few atheists out there, blowing themselves up. Similarly, one of our lot also suggested that atheists value human life much more than theists (rather than the other way around as theists say), since death to a theist is actually a the first step to an eternal reward, rather than an eternity in a damp box. I can't recall the theist response to either point, if there was one.

Zombrex

Asiaprod wrote: »

Thats an interesting point I have not see here before.

What?! I say that all the time! :eek:

Anyway to me the question would be If God loves everyone and wants us to be saved ... why doesn't he just save everyone?

PDN

Wicknight wrote: »

What?! I say that all the time! :eek:

Anyway to me the question would be If God loves everyone and wants us to be saved ... why doesn't he just save everyone?

Then we'd have to spend all eternity listening to you whining about why did God save you without giving you any free will in the matter. Then heaven would sound like hell.

Zombrex

PDN wrote: »

Then we'd have to spend all eternity listening to you whining about why did God save you without giving you any free will in the matter. Then heaven would sound like hell.

You make heaven sound like a prison .. which I suppose is an interesting question, can you decide to leave heaven once you are there?

djpbarry

Wicknight wrote: »

can you decide to leave heaven once you are there?

Well, yes; you just stop imagining things.

BrianCalgary

Wicknight wrote: »

You make heaven sound like a prison .. which I suppose is an interesting question, can you decide to leave heaven once you are there?

Why would you want to leave Heaven?

BrianCalgary

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Why would you want to leave Heaven?

Guess that's a no...

Ninja_scrotum

Akrasia wrote: »

If he wants us to be saved, and he's so omniscient, why did he make the 'proof' of his existence so obscure and so easy to cast doubt on.

There's plenty of proof for his existence in the many amazing things he has created such as CANCER and AIDS and FAMINE and FLU and ALZHEIMERS and etc etc etc....

He obviously wants us to be saved.

Akrasia

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Why would you want to leave Heaven?

No offence Brian, but that sounds a lot like what a cult leader would say to prevent someone leaving.

We don't know what heaven is like (assuming it exists)
From the bible, we are told that heaven is where we get to praise god for all eternity.
Sounds pretty terrible to me.

It is also fashionable now to describe hell as 'the pain of never knowing god'
I'd rather never know god, than have to praise him constantly for eternity.

Akrasia

BrianCalgary wrote: »

I would suggest reading 'Evidence thatDemands a Verdict by Josh McDowell and you will find that your statement above is quite false.

I'd rather not. I have had a look at the rebuttal, and I believe I have seen most of his 'evidence' before.
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jeff_lowder/jury/

Many are called, few listen. Your analogy above is quite incomplete.
Each door would have a book that came along with it. Do you follow the one that is written by one man who wishes many wives - Joseph Smith

How is that worse than one man who didn't want any wife, but preferred to hang around 12 men (some of whom were married and abandoned their families to follow him around)

One man - Mohammed
One man - Jehovah Witness

or a compilation of books written by 40 different authors, three continents, three languages, over 40 generations, in times of peace, war, joy, struggles. And all those books tell a part of the same story: God's redemption of mankind and His influence in teh lives of man.

Who cares whether it was written by one man or a load of different people. It doesn't mean its divinely inspired.
Look at mythology. There are countless versions of events that feature characters from Roman Mythology (previously the polytheistic roman religions)

Now you can read the books and check the evidence, and it is all there.

The only difference between Homer's Iliad and the Stories in the Bible, are that we all know that the Iliad was a work of fiction. The same level of evidence exists for both stories (the places referred to are real, there were battles at that time that are similar, there were probably people around named Helen and Achilles and Paris.... The stories were retold throughout the ages by different people in different places. If some church had been established to edit and compile those stories and turn them into a theology, there might have been a bible based on the prophet Homer.

BrianCalgary

BrianCalgary wrote:

Do you follow the one that is written by one man who wishes many wives - Joseph Smith

BC, just because you don't like one personal wish of one person does not mean the entire religion is false. I may not like the wishes of people to go out drinking, that doesn't automatically mean everything they ever say (sober or otherwise) is a lie.

Zombrex

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Why would you want to leave Heaven?

I'm not sure, but apparently (according to PDN), I do.

But as has been pointed out, that doesn't answer the question. Can someone leave heaven?

Fanny Cradock

Wicknight wrote: »

I'm not sure, but apparently (according to PDN), I do.

But as has been pointed out, that doesn't answer the question. Can someone leave heaven?

I'm not sure anyone is privy to that answer. It's like me asking you what I'm holding in my hand right now. On second thoughts (bearing in mind the nature of the internet) that's a very bad example :eek:

BrianCalgary

Akrasia wrote: »

No offence Brian, but that sounds a lot like what a cult leader would say to prevent someone leaving.

We don't know what heaven is like (assuming it exists)
From the bible, we are told that heaven is where we get to praise god for all eternity.
Sounds pretty terrible to me.

It is also fashionable now to describe hell as 'the pain of never knowing god'
I'd rather never know god, than have to praise him constantly for eternity.

Akrasia read the bible sometime. Revelation gives a great description of Heaven and Hell and Satan being tossed into the lake of fire with all the damned.

BrianCalgary

bluewolf wrote: »

BC, just because you don't like one personal wish of one person does not mean the entire religion is false. I may not like the wishes of people to go out drinking, that doesn't automatically mean everything they ever say (sober or otherwise) is a lie.

Do an examination on other claims of Mormonism and you can see that it is quite false. But that discussion is not for this thread.

I find it quite interesting that akrasia knows all the answers to a book that he/she has never read and is showing quite an ignorance of the Bible and what it says.

BrianCalgary

Akrasia wrote: »

The only difference between Homer's Iliad and the Stories in the Bible, are that we all know that the Iliad was a work of fiction. The same level of evidence exists for both stories (the places referred to are real, there were battles at that time that are similar, there were probably people around named Helen and Achilles and Paris.... The stories were retold throughout the ages by different people in different places. If some church had been established to edit and compile those stories and turn them into a theology, there might have been a bible based on the prophet Homer.

and what is your evidence to defend the position that the Bible has been edited?

djpbarry

BrianCalgary wrote: »

a compilation of books written by 40 different authors

How many of those authors were God?

BrianCalgary

djpbarry wrote: »

How many of those authors were God?

Every single one of them was inspired by God. And I pray one day that you will know what it is to be inspired by Him to do something.

CAreful and don't get smart here. i am in a banning mood.:mad:

Parsley

robindch wrote: »

One could, for example, point out that the modern christian understanding of "saving" is (a) currently impossible to disprove and (b) offers an infinite reward (staying alive forever) for a tiny outlay (believing something). As such, it's reasonable to ask whether people would believe it anyway, regardless of whether or not it's true.

If someone really doesn't think it's true, it will prove quite impossible for them to "believe" to hedge their bets. They can't just say they believe it if they don't. It doesn't make any sense.

Parsley

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Every single one of them was inspired by God. And I pray one day that you will know what it is to be inspired by Him to do something.

CAreful and don't get smart here. i am in a banning mood.:mad:

Inspired by God how? Through dreams and visions? The books were written by people, fallible people.

djpbarry

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Every single one of them was inspired by God.

That is not what I asked.

BrianCalgary wrote: »

CAreful and don't get smart here. i am in a banning mood.:mad:

So much for freedom of speech.

Akrasia

BrianCalgary wrote: »

and what is your evidence to defend the position that the Bible has been edited?

Um, perhaps the fact that there are a number of different editions.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05286a.htm

There are also a number of gospels that have been left out of the official version, and random stuff (letters and things) that made it into the final cut.

Akrasia

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Do an examination on other claims of Mormonism and you can see that it is quite false.

A Morman wouldn't think that, just like a committed christian wouldn't think the bible is 'quite false'

I find it quite interesting that akrasia knows all the answers to a book that he/she has never read and is showing quite an ignorance of the Bible and what it says.

I have read the bible. The new testiment at least. The fact that I haven't wasted my life studying every last paragraph doesn't mean I don't have any right to judge the sections that I am familiar with.

In order to disprove the 'revealed word of god' I don't need to disprove the entire bible, any single part should be enough (god doesn't make mistakes... damnit, even that one statement disproves god. The human spine is a terrible design, we were never 'designed' to walk upright, and nowhere is this more evident than during the birth process)

Akrasia

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Every single one of them was inspired by God. And I pray one day that you will know what it is to be inspired by Him to do something.

CAreful and don't get smart here. i am in a banning mood.:mad:

But that is the entire point to this entire thread. Why haven't I been inspired by god? Why haven't I experienced this amazing experience that you have? Why hasn't God given that experience to me? Has God Abandoned me?

Ninja_scrotum

Akrasia wrote: »

Has God Abandoned me?

Haha, seems like it. But just say you become "born again" tomorrow and start praying and going to church etc..

How would you know if God has and re-accepted you? A picture of Jesus in your toast? Bleeding statues? Lightning strike up the bum?

How can all the believers spend so much time thinking about God and praying to him in the morning, noon, before dinner, bedtime, without getting any feedback from Him whatsoever.

How can you be so happy with no feedback or acknowledgment from "Himself"?

BrianCalgary

Akrasia wrote: »

Um, perhaps the fact that there are a number of different editions.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05286a.htm

There are also a number of gospels that have been left out of the official version, and random stuff (letters and things) that made it into the final cut.

Akrasia, my goodness.

There are different editions in teh English language in oder toreflect the differences in the English language. Any of teh editions mentioned are all translations from the original Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic. SOme translations do a word for word translation of the original languages. Others do an idea for idea translation. Any biblical studier will use different translations in their study and a greek/hebrew to English dictionary in order to understand what the writer was saying.

You second statement regarding the gosples left our and letters left out smacks of a Dan Brown history class. I suggest you read a decent book on how we got our bible.

BrianCalgary

Akrasia wrote: »

But that is the entire point to this entire thread. Why haven't I been inspired by god? Why haven't I experienced this amazing experience that you have? Why hasn't God given that experience to me? Has God Abandoned me?

No God has not abandoned you. You have abandoned Him. It is obvious by your posts that you dislike God and anything to do with Christianity.

BrianCalgary

djpbarry wrote: »

That is not what I asked.
So much for freedom of speech.

You're stil here aren't you?

Parsley

Feel like answering the questions I raised or ya just gonna ignore em?

BrianCalgary

Parsley wrote: »

Feel like answering the questions I raised or ya just gonna ignore em?

I thought they were rhetorical as you offered an answer immediatley after.

So why not reask what you wish an answer to?

Or save them for week when I can be back to answer properly.

mismi

Akrasia wrote: »

I posted this in the Christianity forum because I wanted to keep it narrow and specific to this one particular God and it's related literature.

I didn't really want to talk about 'faith'. I want to know why so many creatures that are supposedly created by God, who wants us to believe in him (more than wants, demands), Why are there such awful lot of people who are looking very hard for reasons to believe in God, but because of severe deficiencies in his own explanations, and his own refusal to acknowledge modern problems, are unable to accept the flaws in logic required to believe in him.

If god wants us to be saved, why doesn't he try even a tiny bit harder.

Why is he so shy?

I'll say it again, either he doesn't want us to be saved (in which case people who don't believed are already screwed by the simple virtue that God has already abandoned us)
Or He doesn't exist, or he is too incompetent to communicate the simple message of his own existence.

Demonstrating your own existence is the easiest thing for anyone to do.

With all due respect there is no way to talk about God and not about faith. It takes faith to believe in God. If you are trying to come about it from a logical or humanistic standpoint - you will never make it. Your surmise would be correct for you and you would not know God and the saving grace he offers. For by grace are you saved through FAITH and that - not of yourselves...it is a gift of God not of works, lest any man should boast. Ephesians 2:8.

Scripture and our own spirit are the proof we have that God exists. If you still struggle with his existence then read Scripture. Search the Bible for who God is. If you are seeking him, there is no doubt you will find him. If you are simply seeking to justify your own understanding of something so infinite there is no way the most brilliant mind can fully understand it - then you will be disappointed. Because Hebrews 11:6 says "... without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him."

Simply put if you do not have faith you cannot believe in God. If you desire to know God then earnestly seek him and you will find the faith he gives to believe in him and have a life that is transformed.

Naikon

mismi wrote: »

If you still struggle with his existence then read Scripture. Search the Bible for who God is. If you are seeking him, there is no doubt you will find him.

So, god is a male?
How can anybody believe in a "being" which simply DOES NOT EXIST!
Where is the evidence to substantiate this claim?
Do you believe in unicorns too?

Asiaprod

Naikon wrote: »

So, god is a male?
How can anybody believe in a "being" which simply DOES NOT EXIST!
Where is the evidence to substantiate this claim?
Do you believe in unicorns too?

Naikon, that is a breach of the charter. God DOES EXIST to people here.
Take this one as a friendly warning.

"Do not post anything intended to inflame or insult. This is meant to be a place of debate where you can challenge ideas all you like but don't go outside boundaries of taste or decency and don't get personal."

JimiTime

mismi wrote: »

With all due respect there is no way to talk about God and not about faith. It takes faith to believe in God. If you are trying to come about it from a logical or humanistic standpoint - you will never make it. Your surmise would be correct for you and you would not know God and the saving grace he offers. For by grace are you saved through FAITH and that - not of yourselves...it is a gift of God not of works, lest any man should boast. Ephesians 2:8.

Scripture and our own spirit are the proof we have that God exists. If you still struggle with his existence then read Scripture. Search the Bible for who God is. If you are seeking him, there is no doubt you will find him. If you are simply seeking to justify your own understanding of something so infinite there is no way the most brilliant mind can fully understand it - then you will be disappointed. Because Hebrews 11:6 says "... without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him."

Simply put if you do not have faith you cannot believe in God. If you desire to know God then earnestly seek him and you will find the faith he gives to believe in him and have a life that is transformed.

good post:)

Naikon wrote:

Originally Posted by Naikon
So, god is a male?
How can anybody believe in a "being" which simply DOES NOT EXIST!
Where is the evidence to substantiate this claim?
Do you believe in unicorns too?

asiaprod wrote:

Naikon, that is a breach of the charter. God DOES EXIST to people here.
Take this one as a friendly warning.

"Do not post anything intended to inflame or insult. This is meant to be a place of debate where you can challenge ideas all you like but don't go outside boundaries of taste or decency and don't get personal."

Yeh, quite a bit of stuff like this floating about at the mo.

PDN

JimiTime wrote: »

Yeh, quite a bit of stuff like this floating about at the mo.

It's trolling, pure and simple.

I think most posters here are very happy to answer questions from, and enter into debate with, non-Christians. None of us should be afraid to face challenges, even when the challengers are annoying as Wicknight.

But when someone just interrupts a discussion by posting the likes of, "You're all stupid. God doesn't exist. Stop believing in sky fairies" then that is trolling that would not be tolerated in other fora.

I post on the soccer forum, and it would not be acceptable to interrupt a thread on who will win the FAI Cup with a post that says, "Who cares? Football's a stupid game anyway and anyone with any sense watches GAA instead." There would be no first, second or final warnings - just a deletion of the post and a well-deserved ban.

BTW, I think the same should apply on the A&A forum. If I went on there and posted, "Catch yourselves on! There is a God - just try to prove that He doesn't exist!" then the post should be deleted and I should be banned as a troll.

Fanny Cradock

PDN wrote: »

BTW, I think the same should apply on the A&A forum. If I went on there and posted, "Catch yourselves on! There is a God - just try to prove that He doesn't exist!" then the post should be deleted and I should be banned as a troll.

Ugh, there goes my trump arguement

Scofflaw

PDN wrote: »

It's trolling, pure and simple.

I think most posters here are very happy to answer questions from, and enter into debate with, non-Christians. None of us should be afraid to face challenges, even when the challengers are annoying as Wicknight.

But when someone just interrupts a discussion by posting the likes of, "You're all stupid. God doesn't exist. Stop believing in sky fairies" then that is trolling that would not be tolerated in other fora.

I post on the soccer forum, and it would not be acceptable to interrupt a thread on who will win the FAI Cup with a post that says, "Who cares? Football's a stupid game anyway and anyone with any sense watches GAA instead." There would be no first, second or final warnings - just a deletion of the post and a well-deserved ban.

BTW, I think the same should apply on the A&A forum. If I went on there and posted, "Catch yourselves on! There is a God - just try to prove that He doesn't exist!" then the post should be deleted and I should be banned as a troll.

Ah no...we like those posts. It's a great pleasure to hear from a theist who we don't feel we have to respect. Plus, of course, we don't find it challenging.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Asiaprod

PDN wrote: »

BTW, I think the same should apply on the A&A forum. If I went on there and posted, "Catch yourselves on! There is a God - just try to prove that He doesn't exist!" then the post should be deleted and I should be banned as a troll.

PDN, do I tell you how to preach?
Don't tell me how to assist my fora.
Thats called back seat moding and its a no-no across the boards.
Asia

PDN

Asiaprod wrote: »

PDN, do I tell you how to preach?

If you were part of my congregation you would be invited to provide feedback and criticism regarding my preaching. However, I am happy to accept that boards.ie operates on a more authoritarian basis than does a fundamentalist evangelical church.