Brits to end Common Traveling Area by 2009

sovtek

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/frontpage/2007/1024/1193158824220.html

Yet another blow to freedom of movement within the EU. I wonder how they think they will catch terrorists this way? Hell they can't even spell their names right much less catch them anyway.
If it was good enough to keep during the Troubles then I don't see what good it is ending it now.

flogen

sovtek wrote: »

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/frontpage/2007/1024/1193158824220.html

Yet another blow to freedom of movement within the EU. I wonder how they think they will catch terrorists this way? Hell they can't even spell their names right much less catch them anyway.
If it was good enough to keep during the Troubles then I don't see what good it is ending it now.

Not really a blow for freedom of movement within the EU, just ease of movement between Ireland and Great Britain. Irish people will still be able to go to England and stay for as long as they like, they'll just need ID to get there (like anyone flying already needs anyway).

The fact is that even if we were a member of the Schengen Agreement, we'd still see passport checks at air and seaports for security reasons - as happens across the EU anyway. It would only really have an impact on our land borders, and as it stands the Irish/Northern Irish border is pretty much non-policed anyway. So this is not a step further away from the spirit of Schengen.

Anyway, the free movement of EU citizens still stands - that doesn't relate to having to carry a passport/ID but the ability to go anywhere within the EU without a visa.

bonkey

Rather than looking at this in outrage, why don't we just look at it as the removeal of just-about the only reason not to fully sign up to Schengen.

After all, whenever Schengen has been raised as a topic in the recent past, there's always been someone rationally explaining why we can't join Schengen without the English, because it would mean the end of the CTA, and we just couldn't end something like that because it was far too important, particularly to North/South relations.

bonkey

sovtek wrote: »

If it was good enough to keep during the Troubles then I don't see what good it is ending it now.

I travelled Ireland/England and Ireland/Northern Ireland during the troubles. Checkpoints, ID, customs...they were all there.

stovelid

sovtek wrote: »

If it was good enough to keep during the Troubles then I don't see what good it is ending it now.

tbh, there were always regular security hassles, searches, and questionnaires when traveling by ferry during the troubles.

Moriarty

bonkey wrote: »

Rather than looking at this in outrage, why don't we just look at it as the removeal of just-about the only reason not to fully sign up to Schengen.

After all, whenever Schengen has been raised as a topic in the recent past, there's always been someone rationally explaining why we can't join Schengen without the English, because it would mean the end of the CTA, and we just couldn't end something like that because it was far too important, particularly to North/South relations.

Indeed. It'll be interesting if the government make any policy changes on the Schengen agreement in light of this.

It was mentioned on the radio this morning that the government are looking to create a similar system for all entries into the republic to coincide with this deployment in the UK. Anyone know anything further on this?

Fratton Fred

looks like Bertie is on the ball

http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/1024/travel.html

Voipjunkie

Fratton Fred wrote: »

looks like Bertie is on the ball

http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/1024/travel.html

Another really interesting aspect to this is that travel between the North and the Republic will not be affected obviously because it would be impossible to police. But the consequence is that travel from the North to Britain would require a passport which leaves unionists in the bizarre position of being able to travel back and forward to a "foreign country" with no restrictions but have to produce a passport to move within their own "country".

LordSutch

Why should people from one region of the UK provide a Passport when travelling to another region of the UK?

Obviously this just hasnt been thought out properly, or has it? maybe its another gentle push towards the North being eased out of the United Kingdom by the British Government?

The whole thing seems very fishy to me, and I cant see it working ~ unless its modified somehow?

Benedict XVI

Voipjunkie wrote: »

Another really interesting aspect to this is that travel between the North and the Republic will not be affected obviously because it would be impossible to police. But the consequence is that travel from the North to Britain would require a passport which leaves unionists in the bizarre position of being able to travel back and forward to a "foreign country" with no restrictions but have to produce a passport to move within their own "country".

A British citizen would not have to produce a passport to travel between NI and England\Scotland\Wales, all they would need is their ID which the GB gov are introducing as part of their security changes.

LordSutch

I think you are missing the whole point Mr Benedict XVI.

The whole crux of this issue is that Mr Brown has announced that British Citizens travelling from Northern Ireland to the rest of the UK "Britain" will have to produce a valid Passport when travelling by either Sea or Air! this then singles out one region of the UK as being foreign when compared to the rest of the UK (England, Scotland, Wales)!

Presumably people from the isle of Wight, the Orkneys, the Shetlands, etc will have to provide Passports too?

Benedict XVI

ArthurF wrote: »

I think you are missing the whole point Mr Benedict XVI.

The whole crux of this issue is that Mr Brown has announced that British Citizens travelling from Northern Ireland to the rest of the UK "Britain" will have to produce a valid Passport when travelling by either Sea or Air! this then singles out one region of the UK as being foreign when compared to the rest of the UK (England, Scotland, Wales)!

Presumably people from the isle of Wight, the Orkneys, the Shetlands, etc will have to provide Passports too?

I don't think i am missing any point

I have heard a few news stories about this today and I was under the impression that this was part of the UK introducing id cards for it's citizens, and those id cards would be valid for entry to the UK.

Thus a British citizen could travel from NI to 'the mainland' and use their ID to gain entry.

As a result of this non British citizens, e,g, Irish, would need passports to enter the UK.

Voipjunkie

Benedict XVI wrote: »

I don't think i am missing any point

I have heard a few news stories about this today and I was under the impression that this was part of the UK introducing id cards for it's citizens, and those id cards would be valid for entry to the UK.

Thus a British citizen could travel from NI to 'the mainland' and use their ID to gain entry.

As a result of this non British citizens, e,g, Irish, would need passports to enter the UK.

No unionists have suggested that they may be prepared to accept ID cards instead of Passports but that would involve opening up the whole ID card thing which is none to popular in Britain.

At the moment the suggestion from the British Government is that anyone entering Britain must have a passport and that includes entry from the North as otherwise there would be a backdoor in via the Republic

Voipjunkie

ArthurF wrote: »

I think you are missing the whole point Mr Benedict XVI.

The whole crux of this issue is that Mr Brown has announced that British Citizens travelling from Northern Ireland to the rest of the UK "Britain" will have to produce a valid Passport when travelling by either Sea or Air! this then singles out one region of the UK as being foreign when compared to the rest of the UK (England, Scotland, Wales)!

Presumably people from the isle of Wight, the Orkneys, the Shetlands, etc will have to provide Passports too?

Not sure about other islands as they do not have a land border with another jurisdiction they would probably not be bound by the same rules as they would not have the backdoor issue.

a bientot

Questions and Answers topic ?

With the major statement from the Commissioner in charge in Bruxelles re the expansion and the plan to firmly seal the new Schengen territory against the outside world due on Tuesday, 6 November, it would be opportune to raise the question on Q and A in the light of the U.K. (of Great Britain and Northern Ireland)'s decision to seal itself off from the outside world also..........

Among the decisions to be announced will be

1. Entry of nine new countries and financial help to be made available to these countries with 'flatland' frontiers separating them from countries such as Russia (with Poland)...............
2. An acceptance of the Cyprus situation due to their land frontier problem with entry delayed to October 2008.
3. All Schengen countries to ensure that API system is in operation using the new CIS2 database and that airlines and other transporters are advised that 'undesirables' from all non Schengen countries (except perhaps Cyprus) are denied departure from last port before Schengen (ie. Dublin if on direct flight) thus ensuring that they do not enter Schengen. The carrier will bear the cost of removing any undesirable(s) from Schengen if a 'mistake' occurs.
4. Application to enter via API will have to be made 24 hours in advance, probably.
5. Due to serious pressure from five Schengen countries in particular access to CIS2 will be restricted to 'full' Schengen countries only.
Special arrangements will be made to accommodate those who live outside Schengen and work in a Schengen country (over a land border).

6. The nine new countries will be told that their use of the 'not permitted to land' regulation has to apply if a person is deemed persona non grata in any Schengen country and that the person cannot be told which country has said 'no' as applies to those requiring Schengen visas.

7. Travellers within Schengen will continue to carry their national identity papers.... or passport that should not be more than six months out of date...........for airline security purposes only but no government can engage in routine state checks within 5? 10? kilometres of a country border...........
There may be other measures or some of the above may not apply...

Send me a pm if interested in attending.......Q and A

Unpossible

from the OPs article:

It is expected that the Irish system would be broadly similar to the British one

So they are expecting Ireland to not join schengen despite the loss of the common trade/travel area?

Why do we have to follow the UKs path?

How exactly does the scanning of a passport prior to entry equate to sealing off a country?

OPENROAD

sovtek wrote: »

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/frontpage/2007/1024/1193158824220.html

Yet another blow to freedom of movement within the EU. I wonder how they think they will catch terrorists this way? Hell they can't even spell their names right much less catch them anyway.
If it was good enough to keep during the Troubles then I don't see what good it is ending it now.

You know in practice when you travel from UK to Ireland you still have to show a passport/photo id, and yes everytime.

Travel from Dublin-Heathrow, no checks at all .


So really no real change in practice as such well certainly when travelling back to Ireland as you still have to stand in line and show your id.

Mr.Micro

Dont forget to bring 2 other forms of ID as well in form of Utility bill and driving licence as the Passport alone is not good enough on its own , at least to open a bank account in Ireland .Bizarre but true.