Does exercise negate any loss in metabolic rate from limited calories?

figroll

Hello,

I've been wondering this for awhile - we all know that eating little and often is one excellent way of maintaining/increasing metabolic rate. The reverse is also true therefore ie. eating less will lower metabolic rate, however if you exercise eg. in the morning on an empty stomach, does this mean your metabolism doesn't slow or is it much better to have eaten and then exercise?

I'm female, 5ft4, 51kg, approx 20% bodyfat, do alot of cardio (sorry!) and some resistance most days, but would like to reduce a little more bodyfat and don't want to damage metabolism.

I'm sure there is some interesting science behind this and would love to hear it!

Thanks!
Figroll (workout fuel, of course !)

celestial

the bottom line is your metabolism will slow if your body detects you are starving it - so continue to eat little and often but not too little! moderate exercise on an empty stomach is fine but overall it doesn't make a huge difference when you train - you may not be able to train as hard/as much on an empty stomach. It's calories out vs calories in no matter what you do.

CuriousE

:rolleyes:Hey Figroll,

I've recently started with a personal trainer who maintains that in order to reduce body fat you need to do more resistance/weight training NOT Cardio.

I'd be roughly same height/weight as you & like you always did loads of cardio...since I've started with the resistance/weight training (3months ago) I & others have noticed a huge difference. I combine this with Cardio & I feel really good.

As for the metabolism thing - just always feed it within an hr of rising from your cot (acts as a kick start) & try not to eat huge amount past 7/8pm (as metabolism has slowed down)

Pherekydes

CuriousE wrote: »

I've recently started with a personal trainer who maintains that in order to reduce body fat you need to do more resistance/weight training NOT Cardio.

You'll find that the athletes with the lowest body fat percentage are endurance athletes, e.g. marathon runners, long distance cyclists, etc.

figroll

Thanks All,

I think i do need to keep a supply of grub with me, from reading some of the stickies, protein needs to be present in all grazing and meals.

I used to do quite alot of running (slow 6-8miles 3-4times a week + cycling) but never really noticed much in the way of body fat reduction but then again, i wasn't measuring particularly.

Now, i still cycle and instead go to the gym, do the cross trainer and threadmill (for about 40mins between them) using intervals and trying to alter slightly each time (longer sprints, hills/resistance etc).

I also do functional lower body weights, squats/lunges and some upper body, but i've been doing the typical female thing and i'm afraid to do much more in the way of weights as only a small amount of my total body fat is present there so i do notice change in my shape easily with weights (and to be honest i'm very happy with my upper body) so i've been trying to stick to cardio for the overall effect.

I was wondering, if you would notice a change quicker if exercise can keep your metabolic rate high, even if you don't feed it every couple of hours eg. i cycle to work 5mls (have fruit for breaky), then walk at lunch (salad, nuts, yogurt), cycle home, then to the gym (tuna salad for dinner). So if i'm eating too few calories, would the fact i'm keeping my exercise regular throughout the day stop any slowing effect?

I know there is another element that if you are within a 'healthy' bodyfat range your body probably does everything it can to keep fat in place!?

thanks guys/gals!

Vegeta

Slow coach wrote: »

You'll find that the athletes with the lowest body fat percentage are endurance athletes, e.g. marathon runners, long distance cyclists, etc.

while I have no proof to counter this and I assume you are quoting from a reliable source, it never looks like this to me.

Male sprinters are usually ripped but that could be purely because they have more muscle to show. Even in gymnastics the males are in amazing shape

If I had to choose a long distance runner or a sprinters body, I know which I'd go with

To the OP, we have a saying around here. If you want a six pack (i.e. low bf%) then its made in the kitchen and not the gym. Its very very diet dependant.

Being a lady you are extra screwed due to lower test levels. You know what would help that, heavy compund lifts like squats, deadlifts and benching.

If you want to see just how diet dependant a low bf% is see g'ems thread in the fitness logs about her cut last year. Amazing stuff really

figroll

thats the problem, i already have a six pack (ok, maybe a 4) and am very lean up top, its the upper thighs that are the prob, and where i've muscular legs, i wouldn't mind dropping a few inches around here.

Anyway, i'll check out g'em's threads, i'm sure they'll be inspiration!

Thanks!

Pherekydes

Vegeta wrote: »

while I have no proof to counter this and I assume you are quoting from a reliable source, it never looks like this to me.

Male sprinters are usually ripped but that could be purely because they have more muscle to show. Even in gymnastics the males are in amazing shape

Do you honestly think sprinters have lower body fat percentage than marathon runners?

Fat is a penalty in endurance sports, with the possible exception of swimming. A sprinter can get away with more fat by having more propulsive muscle, and he's not worried about efficiency.

justsomebloke

Slow coach wrote: »

You'll find that the athletes with the lowest body fat percentage are endurance athletes, e.g. marathon runners, long distance cyclists, etc.

personally I would go with bodybuilders having a lower BF then endurance athletes.

However in both cases I don't think it is purely the result of training that has them like this more the fact they purposely get themselves this way as it is more advantageous in comp to have a minimal BF%, which even you indicate in your second point so I don't see the relevance of bringing it up.

To the OP if you are looking to reduce your BF a bit more what is your current diet like

g'em

Slow coach wrote: »

Do you honestly think sprinters have lower body fat percentage than marathon runners?

Tim Montgomery, the 100m record holder. Jeebus would you look at the flab on that :rolleyes:

Both sprinters and marathon runners at the top ends of their sport will have low body fat. But sprinters will have much higher muscle mass and, I would imagine for many of the posters in these parts, prefer the physique of sprinter over that of a marathon runner any day *.



For us normal folk who are looking to shed body fat the training styles adopted by sprinters will prove to be a lot more efficent to help us reach our goal than steady state cardio i.e. sprint intervals and resistance training.

@ figroll - lift heavy stuff, it won't turn you into She-Hulk, I promise. Eat more protein as you've suggeted and don't starve your body - your metabolism relies on what you give it, irrespective of exercise. More frequent eating and lots more fats would do you the world of good too. It's all in the stickies.

The thread Vegeta is talking about is this one, from when I did a cut last year. (Heavy lifting + high fat/ high protein diet) x 8 weeks = six pack + 12% bodyfat

*then of course there's Transform who manages to achive both at the same time.. grumble, grumble... not fair...


Edit: meant to say though, the cut I did was an extreme diet, not an everyday thing. I was miserable, moody and felt like turd for a lot of it, but it wa only ever going to be a temporary state for my body to be in.

If you're already showing abs that's a heck of a sight better than most women. Even at such low bf my legs were still bigger than I'd like, so you have to sometimes accept that your body won't necessarily look *exactly* the way you want it to.

Colm_OReilly

First off, BF is not a very good measure of health, nor can you accurately measure it. As an extension of this I wouldn't hold marathon runners as the pinnacle of fitness, health or aesthetics.

But, if you want to increase the effectiveness of your program and reduce surface fat (i.e. look more shapely) you should change your cardio up.

I'd advise you to stop using the treadmill, as it takes the work phase of running out from you. If you're using the cross trainer/rowing, look to train at unsustainable intensities - not long, slow work. Short (20 mins or less), very high intensity work will produce a better response than long distance.

You won't hurt yourself but lifting weights. You can start off with weighted squats and lunges since you're used to these, add in some deadlifts, push ups, pull ups/dips (there's probably an assisted machine at your gym) and you'll get more 'toned'.

Dragan

CuriousE wrote: »

& try not to eat huge amount past 7/8pm (as metabolism has slowed down)

Just a quick note on this part, your body doesn't actually have a clue what time it is. There is no internal clock that says "Opps, 8 o clock, best slow down the old metabolism"….your metabolism does not slow until you hit deep sleep, and even then it only slows by about 5%. Hardly anything worth worrying about.

To the OP, I could never understand this whole "cardio on an empty stomach thing", it just makes no sense to me. I know people make the argument that "it's because you haven't eaten carbs in 8 hours, you'll burn fat quicker". To be honest, it is not a very valid argument unless you are doing SOMETHING in your sleep to completely deplete you off all your stored glycogen.

Don't worry about the empty stomach business…..have yourself a good source of amino acids and some iced water and get out there and run.

Vegeta

Slow coach wrote: »

Do you honestly think sprinters have lower body fat percentage than marathon runners?.

No I don't (I said it never looks that way) because long distance runners and cyclists are so slim their low bf% doesn't really stand out

figroll

Thanks everyone, I think my diet probably has alot to do with it. I don't eat enough protein, probably eat too much sugar (even those 'healthy' yogurts have lots i've just noticed) and i don't 'lift heavy' as i thought i would end up with even bigger legs!

So i will do more of the resistance and find my RM so i can work out what 'heavy' means for me.

However, is the 'interval' work i do enough? 20 x 20 mins at 2-3 min sprint intervals on the threadmill and cross trainer?

Colm - what do you mean by this: "I'd advise you to stop using the treadmill, as it takes the work phase of running out from you."

Do you mean its not hard enough? Even if i do sprints which (perception wise) leaves me gasping after 2mins sprints? Or is it better to do whatever exercise at a much intense leverl overall, and forget intervals.

Thanks for all the advise and debate - its really making me wanna get stuck in and do it!

Vegeta

figroll wrote: »

Colm - what do you mean by this: "I'd advise you to stop using the treadmill, as it takes the work phase of running out from you."
!

I know i am not Colm but

When running on a normal surface like the road or a track you have to lift your leg, move it forward, place back on the ground and push off.

A treadmill takes out the push part as it will do it for you

Think this is the general gist of it

Pherekydes

Dragan wrote: »

To the OP, I could never understand this whole "cardio on an empty stomach thing", it just makes no sense to me. I know people make the argument that "it's because you haven't eaten carbs in 8 hours, you'll burn fat quicker". To be honest, it is not a very valid argument unless you are doing SOMETHING in your sleep to completely deplete you off all your stored glycogen.

Cyclists have been doing this for decades. It's called "bonk training". It means you can simulate the effects of a really long hard ride in a much shorter training spin. If it works for them (i.e. they reach the point of 'bonking' sooner) it must be because their glycogen stores are indeed depleted after a night's sleep.

Incidentally, and I don't mean this as a sly dig, but your brain is using up fuel all the time, even when asleep. You use 70 kCals/hr while sleeping, so you would use up about 500 during a typical night's sleep. Since your brain gets its energy from the liver and your liver can store around 650-700 kcals then your brain "runs out" quite soon after waking. Eating breakfast is important for the brain, which consumes 20% of the total body's energy consumption, despite weighing only 2% of body weight.

Sources:
Carbo loading

Bonk Training

How much fuel does the brain use

Dragan

Slow coach wrote: »

Cyclists have been doing this for decades. It's called "bonk training". It means you can simulate the effects of a really long hard ride in a much shorter training spin. If it works for them (i.e. they reach the point of 'bonking' sooner) it must be because their glycogen stores are indeed depleted after a night's sleep.

Incidentally, and I don't mean this as a sly dig, but your brain is using up fuel all the time, even when asleep. You use 70 kCals/hr while sleeping, so you would use up about 500 during a typical night's sleep. Since your brain gets its energy from the liver and your liver can store around 650-700 kcals then your brain "runs out" quite soon after waking. Eating breakfast is important for the brain, which consumes 20% of the total body's energy consumption, despite weighing only 2% of body weight.

Sources:
Carbo loading

Bonk Training

How much fuel does the brain use

With regards to the "bonking training" fair play to them, but i would concentrate more on how to avoid the situation in the first place! But thats just me.

With regard to "bonking" in an of itself, this would have a lot more to do with muscle glycogen depletion than anything else, so do you know if they might cut down on carbs in the day before or even a few days before they go through this? I just cannot see any logical reason why a night of non active sleep would even make a dent in muscle glycogen stores?

If you have any links about that would be sweet!

As for the breakfast issue, i'm the person in the thread advising the OP to eat breakfast. *loves his breakfast*

Pherekydes

Dragan wrote: »

With regard to "bonking" in an of itself, this would have a lot more to do with muscle glycogen depletion than anything else, so do you know if they might cut down on carbs in the day before or even a few days before they go through this? I just cannot see any logical reason why a night of non active sleep would even make a dent in muscle glycogen stores?

It doesn't! That's the counterintuitive part. It's the liver glycogen that gets depleted. The brain runs out of fuel first, that's why athletes or cyclists who "hit the wall" report feeling light-headed and disoriented.

Here's one link; there are loads. Runners refer to "hitting the wall", while cyclists call it "bonking":

Avoid hitting the wall

Interesting is that while these guys, particularly cyclists, want to avoid it during a competition, they can use it to their advantage during training.

rubadub

figroll wrote: »

i don't 'lift heavy' as i thought i would end up with even bigger legs!

Lifting heavy is great for losing fat. muscle is 3 times as dense as fat, so even if you add 3lb of muscle on your legs, and lost 3lb of fat on them they would be smaller- i.e. the muscle takes up less room.

Also muscle is added in the "right places". And as G'em says you will not end up a "she-hulk" g'em is training very heavily and can lift far more than most blokes can and she looks great (and no I am not into "muscley women"! she looks perfectly feminine)- and I think G'em might be technically "obese"! or at least overweight- just shows how dense muscle really is.

There is another current thread where a guy is disappointed since he is actively trying to add muscle yet cannot see the increase, it doesnt happen overnight. Last thing you want is a lowered bodyfat to reveal only bone- like those sickly skeleton models you see.

As for morning exercise- I was doing it for a while and liked it. There are 2 points though. If you exercise for 1 hour on an empty stomach, you might burn 400kcal, then you eat 200kcal. If you ate 200kcal you might well have more energy and be able to burn 500kcal in the same hour. I was different in that I went a certain distance to work on a bike so was burning on average the same kcal on my route, it might take me longer when unfed- so in effect was a longer workout and less intense calorie burn wise. I was aware I would still have glycogen so did some pushups and body squats before cycling to try and rid me of some.



The following is from a great book, "feed the muscle burn the fat" from here
http://www.burnthefat.com/

Any time of day that suits your schedule is a good time for cardio. The important
thing is that you just do it. However, many bodybuilders and fitness models believe that
early morning fasted cardio burns more body fat. Although this is still controversial, the
evidence is strong and there are many reasons to consider doing cardio first thing in the
morning on an empty stomach. The argument in favor of fasted early morning cardio goes
something like this:
1. After an overnight 8-12 hour fast, your body's stores of glycogen are depleted and you
burn more fat when glycogen is low.
2. Eating causes a release of insulin. Insulin interferes with the mobilization of body fat.
Less insulin is present in the morning; so more body fat is burned when cardio is done in
the morning.
3. There is less carbohydrate (glucose) in the bloodstream when you wake up after an
overnight fast. With less glucose available, you burn more fat.
4. If you eat immediately before a workout, you have to burn off what you just ate first
before tapping into stored body fat (and insulin is elevated after a meal.)
5. When you do cardio in the morning, your metabolism stays elevated for a period of
time after the workout is over. If you do cardio in the evening, you burn calories during
the session, but you fail to take advantage of the "afterburn" effect because your
metabolic rate drops dramatically as soon as you go to sleep.
6. Morning cardio gives you a feeling of accomplishment and makes you feel great all day
by releasing mood-enhancing endorphins.
7. Morning cardio "energizes" you and "wakes you up."
8. Morning cardio may help regulate your appetite for the rest of the day.
9. Your body’s circadian rhythm adjusts to your morning routine, making it easier to
wake up at the same time every day.
10. You’ll be less likely to "blow off" your workout when it’s out of the way early (like
when you’re exhausted after work or when friends ask you to join them at the pub for
happy hour).
11. You can always "make time" for exercise by setting your alarm earlier in the morning.

figroll

Thank you so much for all the replies, i know it takes thought and time! I'm just in from the gym, after my cycle home from work, went straight there, dropped the threadmill, did 30mins on the xtrainer (with intervals of speed and heavier resistance), 10x3 sets of 70k on the legpress (still dont' know my one rep max yet), dumb bell pullover (to give my hip flexors a break) then weighted lunges (still to embarressed to do a proper squat, as eh-hem, i have a bit of a j-lo butt as it is and doing them in proper form is a bit ott :-) ), then some core work, abs and home - to eat a tuna salad.

I will do more research on the program, thats an interesting fact about muscle being way denser than fat so i shouldn't have to worry about my legs getting much bigger.

I think i'm also going to walk into work in the mornings (5.5mls or so) eventually to consider running in (whether on an empty stomach or not it will still do some good!)

Thanks guys!

Vegeta

look up bulgarian split squats, you don't "present" as much

figroll

Just you-tubed it, genius! Thanks!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_Q8FKO7Ueg

Is it pretty much ok to concentrate on my lower half? Is it better to do cardio eg. xtrainer on another day to 'lifting heavy' to get a better training effect? I'm a little afraid of putting too much workload on my hipflexors/extensors and legs in general with so much lower body in one day. Also, i want to train on consecutive days so if i keep doing the same things (as i kindof run out of ideas on how to make it different) does that influence the benefits?

I normally go to the gym Wednesday-Sunday each day, and Monday pretty much off apart from my commute to work and Tuesday a run on the road (4-5miles) so its all lower body work? Hmm??

Thx again..