Game Selection Question

CaptainNemo

This is like a Choose Your Own Adventure game. Remember those?

So anyway, you're me. You consider yourself a somewhat talented but inconsistent and still inexperienced player. Your available bankroll is severely less than it used to be due to a recent house move and various other things. You are in the SE on a Saturday night and you have the choice between the following games:

a) A €1-€2 soft pot limit game where the average stack is about 50BBs and you are fairly sure of being one of the best 2 or 3 at the table.

OR

b) A €1-€2 NL game with a €5 live straddle, in which (you quickly realize) are sitting at least 5 good, experienced, highly aggressive players with very large stacks.

OK, so you chose b)! Your ambition and fearlessness are commendable. Having chosen to sit in the NL game, do you:

a) Buy in short and wait for the nuts, then shove!
b) Cover the table!
c) Buy in for about €400 but play as if you cover the table and can take flops with any 2.

You chose c), controversial. Well, let's continue anyway. You have now dropped your initial buy in and as I have mentioned before, are not properly bankrolled at the moment. You have also developed a headache and have taken painkillers. Do you:

a) Go home and sleep
b) Buy into that PL game, it still looks very good
c) Rebuy into the NL game for 600!

...I think you can see where this is going. I've never considered the whole issue of game selection too much before mainly because I used to live in Cork and game selection wasn't much of an issue being as there was really only one place to go and 1 game to play when you got there.

What I'm actually interested in in this thread is the kind of circumstances that would cause players to stay out of a particular game. I like to challenge myself and learn by playing with better players but I also don't like losing large amounts of money and enjoy a nice easy win now and then. How do people balance these two things generally? Do most people do a good job of being objective about their chances in a given game, or is this a problem a lot of people have?

El Stuntman

CaptainNemo wrote: »

You are in the SE on a Saturday night and you have the choice between the following games:

a) A €1-€2 soft pot limit game where the average stack is about 50BBs and you are fairly sure of being one of the best 2 or 3 at the table.

OR

b) A €1-€2 NL game with a €5 live straddle, in which (you quickly realize) are sitting at least 5 good, experienced, highly aggressive players with very large stacks.

Hi Nemo, are you a kindy of sandy-blond haired dude? welcome to myt world anyway...

I choose (b), because (1) I'm a fool, (2) I like lots of action at the table and (3) those short-stacked PL games drive me nuts with guys rebuying for €50 each time

CaptainNemo wrote: »

OK, so you chose b)! Your ambition and fearlessness are commendable. Having chosen to sit in the NL game, do you:

a) Buy in short and wait for the nuts, then shove!
b) Cover the table!
c) Buy in for about €400 but play as if you cover the table and can take flops with any 2.

I choose (c) but play TAG (badly) and only play premium starting hands. I'll also play speculative stuff in position when the PF action is small. Except these fcukers keep squeezing!

CaptainNemo wrote: »

You chose c), controversial. Well, let's continue anyway. You have now dropped your initial buy in and as I have mentioned before, are not properly bankrolled at the moment. You have also developed a headache and have taken painkillers. Do you:

a) Go home and sleep
b) Buy into that PL game, it still looks very good
c) Rebuy into the NL game for 600!

well duh, (c) obviously

see the 'I'm a fool' comment above.

may as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb!

oddly, I generally exercise what I would regard to be good table selection online and will rarely sit at a table where I'm not confident of being one of the better players.

jbravado

B

C

B

Obviously.

Ego is a tough man to shake off.


I recently had to broaden my horizons after doing the loot and couldnt believe the difference in games/standard around.

I hope that Se game continues to grow as it would be nice to have a big holdem game ala fitz 100 ohmaha to aim for.

Grimebox

CaptainNemo wrote: »

This is like a Choose Your Own Adventure game. Remember those?

So anyway, you're me. You consider yourself a somewhat talented but inconsistent and still inexperienced player. Your available bankroll is severely less than it used to be due to a recent house move and various other things. You are in the SE on a Saturday night and you have the choice between the following games:

a) A €1-€2 soft pot limit game where the average stack is about 50BBs and you are fairly sure of being one of the best 2 or 3 at the table.

OR

b) A €1-€2 NL game with a €5 live straddle, in which (you quickly realize) are sitting at least 5 good, experienced, highly aggressive players with very large stacks.

a: Since my roll would be roughly under 1 buy-in for 1/2... id have to go for 1/2 but i wouldnt even be there in the first place!

CaptainNemo wrote: »

OK, so you chose b)! Your ambition and fearlessness are commendable. Having chosen to sit in the NL game, do you:

a) Buy in short and wait for the nuts, then shove!
b) Cover the table!
c) Buy in for about €400 but play as if you cover the table and can take flops with any 2.

a: id probably play scared anyway so id try and play the nuts but still attempt the odd squeeze preflop where it seems appropriate. Again a short buyin cuz of my non-existant roll

CaptainNemo wrote: »

You chose c), controversial. Well, let's continue anyway. You have now dropped your initial buy in and as I have mentioned before, are not properly bankrolled at the moment. You have also developed a headache and have taken painkillers. Do you:

a) Go home and sleep
b) Buy into that PL game, it still looks very good
c) Rebuy into the NL game for 600!

i'd love to say (a) but id almost always be going for (b), as much as i try ive still got that inner degenrate telling me to play on. He's similar to my inner child but not nearly as sound... B: because why not play in the game that gives you the biggest edge? 1/2 is dizzy enough for me as it is. Forget 1/2/5 with 1.5k stacks goin everywhere. Not even mentioning how much better the players are there

I generally pick the game i have biggest edge in. Only sometimes staying in omaha games cuz holdem can get so damn boring when you get no cards playing against drunks. Although once i stayed in omaha cuz of an absolute donkey repotting the river with as little as trips on a board where houses and flushes were possible. He kept reloading for 200, happy days. Other times my table selection live is influenced by whos at the table. theres a few people out that i despise being at the table with. As bad as they may be i just hate bad losers/winners/assholes

AKQJ10

if you run hot, play good at the nl game you can spin up a very reasonable tank for the games in little time. Sure when you lose you lose more but its alot more fun and rewards are so much better. i go with B unless times are desperate.

ollyk1

lol. Myself, Mickste and a few others were faced with this exact decision also.

The only difference is we knew the players on the NL table so we didn't have to sit down to find out that there were at least 5 good players at that table.

I don't know the OP so I didn't count him among them.

There were 2-3 known fish at the table though but they are aggressive fish so you'd need to be happy hero calling against them for significant monies with top pair holdings on occasion.

The plh tables were moving very fast and once you got past the first table there was loads of cash (in poor poker playing hands) on the table.

CaptainNemo wrote: »

This is like a Choose Your Own Adventure game. Remember those?

So anyway, you're me. You consider yourself a somewhat talented but inconsistent and still inexperienced player. Your available bankroll is severely less than it used to be due to a recent house move and various other things. You are in the SE on a Saturday night and you have the choice between the following games:

a) A €1-€2 soft pot limit game where the average stack is about 50BBs and you are fairly sure of being one of the best 2 or 3 at the table.

OR

b) A €1-€2 NL game with a €5 live straddle, in which (you quickly realize) are sitting at least 5 good, experienced, highly aggressive players with very large stacks.

Easy decision. A every time!

Ego is not your bankroll friend.

CaptainNemo wrote: »

OK, so you chose b)! Your ambition and fearlessness are commendable. Having chosen to sit in the NL game, do you:

a) Buy in short and wait for the nuts, then shove!
b) Cover the table!
c) Buy in for about €400 but play as if you cover the table and can take flops with any 2.

Minimum buyin has to be at least €500 for me and continue to top up. After that play C.

CaptainNemo wrote: »

You chose c), controversial. Well, let's continue anyway. You have now dropped your initial buy in and as I have mentioned before, are not properly bankrolled at the moment. You have also developed a headache and have taken painkillers. Do you:

a) Go home and sleep
b) Buy into that PL game, it still looks very good
c) Rebuy into the NL game for 600!

A

CaptainNemo wrote: »

...I think you can see where this is going. I've never considered the whole issue of game selection too much before mainly because I used to live in Cork and game selection wasn't much of an issue being as there was really only one place to go and 1 game to play when you got there.

What I'm actually interested in in this thread is the kind of circumstances that would cause players to stay out of a particular game. I like to challenge myself and learn by playing with better players but I also don't like losing large amounts of money and enjoy a nice easy win now and then. How do people balance these two things generally? Do most people do a good job of being objective about their chances in a given game, or is this a problem a lot of people have?

My plan in the SE is always to join the plh game first and then move over to the nlh if it looks juicy for any particular reason. The plh is often the best option though as guys having a good night and playing late into the night find themselves playing the main game with €1k in front of them and out of their depth at 4 in the morning. Nice.

On the other hand you could let HB et al school you for the night but buying a few poker books would be cheaper.

RoundTower

having read this thread I'd be getting in that super tough 1 2 5 game every time.

Gholimoli

RoundTower wrote: »

having read this thread I'd be getting in that super tough 1 2 5 game every time.

yeah but you are a class act and one of the best players that the game has ever seen so it's only natural that you would choose that game.

for the less talented that game may have looked though.

CaptainNemo

I thought I was in a great position as I was on Adrian's left and he was playing SO aggressively. Unfortunately I wasn't getting the cards at the right times and in order to get in and play postflop I was bleeding away chips all night for which I wasn't deep stacked enough.

I also don't think I was playing well. This often happens me when I've a headache and have taken painkillers, I think I'm OK because I'm not feeling it but my judgement is actually impaired.

I think the correct answers if you were me that night were

a), a), a)

Anyway, back to phase one:
1) Rebuild bankroll
2) ???
3) Profit!

mickste

Alan i agree with all of your choices but i think the most important factor and the one which is ignored too much by good players is bankroll management.

I have seen a good few talented regulars who have been on a downswing jump into that NL game with a very limited bankroll. This isn't clever and while they have faith in their own ability and are good enough to play, it's irrelevant when playing with a small, underfunded roll for that level.

A lot of these regulars built up their initial tanks playing PL and crushing the game.I understand that they see the NL as a chance to spin up a roll quickly but as mentioned already this is not without more risk.

I personally think you are a good player and definately one of the better 'newbies', but pehaps building up your roll in the PL for a few weeks so you can have a proper bankrolled shot at the NL game would be more productive in the future.

Also headaches are serious -EV for playing poker

meathman 007

It really does have to make you laugh reading threads like this and looking over some of the hand histories from the live play in Dublin

The standard of play in Dublin compared to the usual table where i play in Drogheda is just unbelievable.
When i was living in Dublin (college), i made a point of avoiding the casinos because i just dont see the value in 1/2 games - a lot of the regulars are people who are probobly beating as high as 5-10 nl online. Compare that to Drogheda, i reckon the standard player would struggle to beat .25/.50 online.

I really does make you want to get 10000 together and play every night in the place


A bit off topic i know, but i just think its interesting to compare the standard to poker in dublin to other casinos/poker rooms around the country.

In regard to the op quesions, yeah i would take the soft pl game every time

Grimebox

meathman 007 wrote: »

The standard of play in Dublin compared to the usual table where i play in Drogheda is just unbelievable.
When i was living in Dublin (college), i made a point of avoiding the casinos because i just dont see the value in 1/2 games - a lot of the regulars are people who are probobly beating as high as 5-10 nl online. Compare that to Drogheda, i reckon the standard player would struggle to beat .25/.50 online.

Ever played in the jackpot on a friday/saturday night? plays more like .01/02

phantom_lord

meathman 007 wrote: »

It really does have to make you laugh reading threads like this and looking over some of the hand histories from the live play in Dublin

The standard of play in Dublin compared to the usual table where i play in Drogheda is just unbelievable.
When i was living in Dublin (college), i made a point of avoiding the casinos because i just dont see the value in 1/2 games - a lot of the regulars are people who are probobly beating as high as 5-10 nl online. Compare that to Drogheda, i reckon the standard player would struggle to beat .25/.50 online.

I really does make you want to get 10000 together and play every night in the place


A bit off topic i know, but i just think its interesting to compare the standard to poker in dublin to other casinos/poker rooms around the country.

In regard to the op quesions, yeah i would take the soft pl game every time

There's tons more value in Dublin than in Drogheda, and it's not even close. Or at least that was the case when I used to play live.

CaptainNemo

mickste wrote: »

Alan i agree with all of your choices but i think the most important factor and the one which is ignored too much by good players is bankroll management.

I have seen a good few talented regulars who have been on a downswing jump into that NL game with a very limited bankroll. This isn't clever and while they have faith in their own ability and are good enough to play, it's irrelevant when playing with a small, underfunded roll for that level.

A lot of these regulars built up their initial tanks playing PL and crushing the game.I understand that they see the NL as a chance to spin up a roll quickly but as mentioned already this is not without more risk.

I personally think you are a good player and definately one of the better 'newbies', but pehaps building up your roll in the PL for a few weeks so you can have a proper bankrolled shot at the NL game would be more productive in the future.

Also headaches are serious -EV for playing poker

Thanks Mick and I think you are 100% right about the BR thing, I should have a big enough tank for that game but due to spending all of my ready cash lately I don't.

About the headache thing, the explanation for that is that together with job and recently-moved-in-girlfriend my poker night opportunities have become more limited so I wasn't about to go home

Life is terrible for messing up your poker plans...

meathman 007

phantom_lord wrote: »

There's tons more value in Dublin than in Drogheda, and it's not even close. Or at least that was the case when I used to play live.

its been about 2 years since i played in dublin and ive played live in Drogheda for about the last 2 years. Maybe i just sat down at the wrong tables in Dublin, because from my perspective - Drogheda is a lot easier to beat than i found it in Dublin

Heres a classic hand from a few months back - it involved a regular donk in Drogheda and a chinese bloke, this is the kind of stuff that goes on in the place. Games was 1/2 nl with no straddle

Chinese guy was trying to give off the impression that this was the first time he played the game - Which was bs, he managed to turn his 150 into about 700 in less that 2 hours.
Regular donk does he usual big raise pre-flop to 25 and chinese guy calls - both has similar size stacks

Flop (~55): Kc, 4c, 7s
Chinese guy bets about the pot and regular donk calls

Turn (~150): Kd

Some banter between the two of them and donk is asking him if he has the king etc etc. Donk checks and chinese guy moves all in for about 600. Donk then sits for about 5minutes and then calls the 600 and says ill gamble with you.

River (~1400): 6h

Chinese guy turns over KJ for trips
Regular donk turns over 35 of clubs for straight

This hand really does sum what goes on in Drogheda, you wouldnt believe how much value there is - even if you get average cards all night, there is money to be made

DeadParrot

that would sicken me...physically.....chunks of half digested matter covering the felt
oh and soft pl game all night long

The_Chopper

CaptainNemo wrote: »

I thought I was in a great position as I was on Adrian's left and he was playing SO aggressively. Unfortunately I wasn't getting the cards at the right times and in order to get in and play postflop I was bleeding away chips all night for which I wasn't deep stacked enough.

I felt the same in this game about bleeding away chips to see flops.

CaptainNemo wrote: »

I also don't think I was playing well. This often happens me when I've a headache and have taken painkillers, I think I'm OK because I'm not feeling it but my judgement is actually impaired.

I thought you played well personally - I just think your timing was a little off in places. I also thought you were trying to play to many pots against Adrian and I think you had the impression you were get your big pay off from him.

You were definitely one of the 2 players I didn't like playing against in that game Sat. I would probably have folded the AQ to you that time if you had another 200+ behind as your push didn't really have any FE as it was effectively a min raise

cardshark202

How often does the 1/2/5 game run? Actually can anyone tell me how often 2/5 games run in general around town.

ollyk1

cardshark202 wrote: »

How often does the 1/2/5 game run? Actually can anyone tell me how often 2/5 games run in general around town.

Every Friday and Saturday night in the SE Reggie and occasionally thereafter. In the Jackpot as well on some specific night (someone else will post the night) and I think CHL's is trying to get a game going during the week.

CaptainNemo

The_Chopper wrote: »

I felt the same in this game about bleeding away chips to see flops.

I thought you played well personally - I just think your timing was a little off in places. I also thought you were trying to play to many pots against Adrian and I think you had the impression you were get your big pay off from him.

You were definitely one of the 2 players I didn't like playing against in that game Sat. I would probably have folded the AQ to you that time if you had another 200+ behind as your push didn't really have any FE as it was effectively a min raise

Yes I was trying to get involved with Adrian, the problem was that there were other players in the hands too and those were the ones I was losing my chips to usually! I was finding it a bit frustrating because he was basically squashing my game and I was at the same time a bit card dead at times when I really felt it was time to make a move. Like you said, timing a bit off I guess.

I felt like a bit of a donk after the AQ / QJ hand against you. I thought about it and found it hard to put you on AQ there because you hadn't raised and like you said, you had been mixing it up with that hand. On the other hand you didn't need to have AQ, you could have had a set or 2 pair and really I should have folded it. Thanks for the feedback though. I will be taking a break from that game while my finances recover unless I have some kind of spectacular spin-up in the meantime!

The_Chopper

CaptainNemo wrote: »

Yes I was trying to get involved with Adrian, the problem was that there were other players in the hands too and those were the ones I was losing my chips to usually! I was finding it a bit frustrating because he was basically squashing my game and I was at the same time a bit card dead at times when I really felt it was time to make a move. Like you said, timing a bit off I guess.

I felt like a bit of a donk after the AQ / QJ hand against you. I thought about it and found it hard to put you on AQ there because you hadn't raised and like you said, you had been mixing it up with that hand. On the other hand you didn't need to have AQ, you could have had a set or 2 pair and really I should have folded it. Thanks for the feedback though. I will be taking a break from that game while my finances recover unless I have some kind of spectacular spin-up in the meantime!

I actually think if Adrian hadn't been at the table it would have been a very different game with lots of 3 and 4 betting going on. I think you would have made a lot of money.
As far as I'm concerned you just got unlucky in that you targeted the wrong player.
I personally wouldn't be scared of that game if I were you - you did well to take lots of small pots with a bit of aggression. If you're worried about bankroll but want to play in that game I would recommend stop 3 betting light preflop and try play smaller pots in position. I like the way you play turn and river - you maybe need a little more aggression on the flop

jbravado

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