Dublin 15 schools "white flight" of students

Stoner

just read some pretty interesting stuff about Dublin 15 schools in the Indo this morning.

According to the indo, "dublin 15 schools have borne the brunt of the concentration of newcomer families in the area.... urgent action to avoid ghettoisation and social fragmentation"
it also states that between 2003-07 47% of those leaving the schools were irish, with the ramaining 53% being non irish, yet the enrolling in these schools is as follows 21 % irish and 79% non irish.

imo this does not read well for the standard of education in these schools, I would imagine that there would need to be a higher ratio of teacher to students in these type of schools through out the county as surely that % of kids many of whom would not speak english at home would slow the teaching process down (untill the language gap was closed)

anyway it seems to be an issue all over the country , but it is at its worst in dublin 15.
I know of a good few kids who have left secondary level schools as the standard of education was not as good as it should be, but i have not heard of anyone leaving because of the % of non irish students even though "white flight" is in "" I still find it a little worrying that such wording is being used, unless I'm wrong and kids are leaving for this reason and i just dont know them.

Zaph

Matt Cooper had this on The Last Word yesterday evening. The guy he was interviewing said that what happens is that foreign students enrol in a school and the state provides language support for two years. After that time they're on their own, although many still struggle with English which results in them taking up more time with the regular teachers, and this obviously reduces the amount of time the teacher can spend with Irish students, or even foreign students whose English is good. The guy went on to say that the problem was exacerbated in Dublin 15 because there's a disproportionate amount of rental properties here compared to the rest of Dublin, which naturally attracts new entrants to the country. The problem then is that obviously all parents want their kids to have the best possible education, and if they think that it's not available in one area they'll move to another, and even if this is an unwanted trend you can't just tell people where to live. I think the only real solution is more schools and teachers in affected areas, but we all know that isn't going to happen any time soon.

Tha Gopher

Blanch is full of homes whos owners/families have moved (mostly to Cavan). Those filling the empty home are usually foreign. I dont think its people running away from the growing foreign populaion, merely that Blanch is in relatively close proximity to south Cavan (and will be even further once the whole Tara motorway nonsense is ironed out).

Stark

You mean Navan as opposed to Cavan right?

Victor

Stoner wrote: »

it also states that between 2003-07 47% of those leaving the schools were irish, with the ramaining 53% being non irish, yet the enrolling in these schools is as follows 21 % irish and 79% non irish.

Its quite possible that this is largely down to two factors (1) demographics - the Irish students are on average older (2) I don't know what schools are counted, but there is a pattern of schools in new estates being full of younger children and as the estate ages, the number of younger students drops - these schools could be surrounded by new estates.

Stark wrote: »

You mean Navan as opposed to Cavan right?

Both. There are people who commute from Cavan to Dublin. Why do you think they whinge so much about 2 tolls?

Pat Dunne

The situation with the shortage of school places can be firmly laid at the door of the Minister of Education. If there had been sufficent and proper planning, not something we are use to in Dublin 15. The problems of under resourced schools and lack of school places would not have happened.

The Department of Education always use the previous census figures as the way they allot funds to a particluar area for new school. This has one very serious flaw. Because, between the previous census and the most recent one. There was an increase of 28% in the population of Dublin 15. The Department did not take into account that vast areas of Dublin 15 had new houses been built on it and that these houses and apartments were going to be occupied by adults and wait for it, children. Is it not logical that where housing developments are been built that schools should not be built along side them as well.

We have only ourselves to blame for returning the same minister and her collegues back to power as they have presided over the bad planning and apalling lack of basic services and a amenities that Dublin 15 has to put up with. It is highly unlikely that the very same people we returned to power will now alter they way they do things after ten years of making a complete dogs dinner of West Dublin 15.

PauloMN

Pat Dunne wrote: »

We have only ourselves to blame for returning the same minister and her collegues back to power as they have presided over the bad planning and apalling lack of basic services and a amenities that Dublin 15 has to put up with. It is highly unlikely that the very same people we returned to power will now alter they way they do things after ten years of making a complete dogs dinner of West Dublin 15.

+1

Totally agree with that, loads of people give out about the poor health and education services, but too few voted for a change. I feel FF were returned to power on the basis that people felt they were financially better off under FF, regardless of the state of the health/education services. Such a shame as personally I expect nothing to change now for another 4 years anyway.

Nevyn

I was stunned that the FF candidate got back in esp considering the iron that he was minster for children and how badly children of his constituency were server by the government.

PauloMN

Thaedydal wrote: »

I was stunned that the FF candidate got back in esp considering the iron that he was minster for children and how badly children of his constituency were server by the government.

I know, probably topped the poll also (just can't remember if he did). People complain about stuff like education yet either don't vote at all, or vote the same goons straight back into government. Drives me :mad:.

DvB

Edit: Friend logged in on wrong a/c, ie mine!

dtf

I don't agree.

The blame must be laid with Fingal County Council. It is they who have the planning powers for the area, and God only knows how they didn't see the need to plan for any more Schools despite the fact that the population increased by 27% over the last 5 years.
Thegovt have announced last week that they plan to provide the funds to build something like 13 schools in the Fingal area in the next year, the council haven't even found the necessary site in Dublin 15.

Stoner

dtf wrote: »

I don't agree.

The blame must be laid with Fingal County Council. It is they who have the planning powers for the area, and God only knows how they didn't see the need to plan for any more Schools despite the fact that the population increased by 27% over the last 5 years.
Thegovt have announced last week that they plan to provide the funds to build something like 13 schools in the Fingal area in the next year, the council haven't even found the necessary site in Dublin 15.

I agree with this disagree, the apartments and houses are built first, followed by the shops, then the schools etc, so people live in building sites for a few years and then fight for schools etc, even though building schools form part of many of the conditions for to build in the first place, they go from Phase A to Phase Z once the go ahead is given.

The local authorities dont seem to care who builds what or where, so long as the initial application keep their backsides covered all is well, it is someone elses problem after that.

Zaph

Adamstown seems to be the first attempt at doing things properly and building what's needed in the right order. Unfortunately D15 seems to have been the testing ground for developers to see what you can get away with without building amenities.

DvB

zaph wrote: »

Adamstown seems to be the first attempt at doing things properly and building what's needed in the right order. Unfortunately D15 seems to have been the testing ground for developers to see what you can get away with without building amenities.

Well i do know through my work that Ongar for example was considered an experiment by Fingal County Council, a former college classmate works for the Architectural firm that designed the scheme & the stuff i've heard in relation to FCC's attitude to it beggars belief, and to be fair Ongar is far from the worst arrangement in D.15

TBH i point the finger at the National Development Plan, ask any privately employed town planner & they'll point out the glaring shortfalls in its makeup & strategy, it wont stop the govt throwing money at it though, money which in hindsight that could have spent more wisely IMO.

Pat Dunne

Regardless of which state body eg. Dept of Education, Fingal Co Co NDP etc we blame. It is the government of the day whose job it is to put right the short falls that arise in the system.

Be it, implementing changes to the planning laws or the building new schools. Our local TD who is a member of the Goverment appears not to have been to sucessful at putting accross the case for Dublin 15. In the way more schools and changes in the planning laws to his cabinet collegues or they simply were not interested in what he had to say in relation to the needs of his constituents and their children.

In the years 2001 to 2006 the population of Dublin 15 has increase by 28% and during that time just three primary schools were opened and not one post primary school. Indeed it is over 12 years since the last secondary school was opened in Dublin 15. The combined population of the Dublin West constituency is 105668 people at the last census (2006) that figure has more than likely to in excess of 110000 in 2007.

We have to make our public representitive in the Goverment more accountable for the lack of action on the schools issue, the poor planning and transport issues in Dublin 15. We also have to seriously consider what this government has delivered to Dublin 15 in the way of infrastructure. We have had unabated housing development which is generally of a very poor quality and a situation where infrastructure is constantly playing catch up to the housing development.

Why can't this government not reverse this situation whereby the infrastucture is put in place first and the housing developments follows on from that. Afterall when required, this Government can move with lightening speed to put right a short fall in the system, just look at Minister Dempsey's solution for the Provisional License holder's last Friday!

PauloMN

dtf wrote: »

I don't agree.

The blame must be laid with Fingal County Council. It is they who have the planning powers for the area, and God only knows how they didn't see the need to plan for any more Schools despite the fact that the population increased by 27% over the last 5 years.
Thegovt have announced last week that they plan to provide the funds to build something like 13 schools in the Fingal area in the next year, the council haven't even found the necessary site in Dublin 15.

The Dept of Education is ultimately responsible for providing education to every child in the state. You can blame Fingal Co Co all you want, and while I agree that the planning situation regarding D15 and elsewhere is in a terrible state, the Dept should have stepped in long ago and sorted this mess out with regard to schools and education.

Anyway, while there is a shortage of school places, we're going a little off-topic. The OP was making the point that the huge increase of non-national school children in Dublin 15 must be having an impact on the quality of education in our area. It is most definitely the responsibility of the Dept of Education to ensure that the quality of education is maintained throughout our schools. Frankly, I'm not convinced it is doing so, hence my son doesn't attend our local national school, and my daughter will not be either.

Of course, some will simply accuse me of being xenophobic, however I view it as providing my kids with the best education I can.

dtf

I don't think you're xenophobic, you have to make the decisions that are best for you, that’s the way things work.

The Fingal County manager recently said at a meeting in Malahide that all development in Fingal for the foreseeable future would take place in Swords and Dublin 15 and the people of Malahide and Portmarnock should not worry about their green spaces being developed.

We are already under represented (50% of the population of Fingal but only 33% of the councillors); you can see the negative effect of lack of representation from the poor transport to inferior education facilities. The problem we saw this year with school places this year will be nothing compared to the situation in two years time when the vast number of 3 yr olds in the D.15 area reach school going age.

Responsibility for these problems lies directly with Fingal county Council, the dept of education job lies in providing the funding, but the schools have to be built and planned by Fingal.

Victor

dtf wrote: »

We are already under represented (50% of the population of Fingal but only 33% of the councillors);

http://www.cso.ie/census/documents/census2006_volume_1_pop_classified_by_area.pdf

Population

Fingal 239,992
Blanchardstown-Castleknock 85,000


http://www.fingalcoco.ie/YourLocalCouncil/Councillors/

8 out of 24 councillors.

dtf

Population Howth, 20,052 = 3 councillors.
Population Mulhuddart, 53,306 = 4 councillors,

Besides that, we have a lot of immigrants living in DUblin 15, who for one reason or another wouldn't complete the census.

Pat Dunne

Interesting to note that one new Post Primary school has got the go ahead from the Dept of Education it will be based at Phibblestown near Ongar and Castaheany see www.joanburton.ie/

How long do we have to wait for additional secondary schools for Castleknock, Tyrellstown and the soon to be developed Hansfield (3500 plus apartment and houses).

We also need somewhere in the region of 6 additional primary schools in the same areas listed above to cope with demand.

And yet what do we get, we get a squabble between the Dept Of Education and Fingal Co Co with both side blaming the other for who didn't this and who didn't do that with regards to lands for new school sites in Dublin 15.

People, it is the education of our children we are discussing here and what is needed is a realistic schools building programme for Dublin 15. So it deliver the best education available to our children. It the least we owe them.

Victor

Pat Dunne wrote: »

Interesting to note that one new Post Primary school has got the go ahead from the Dept of Education it will be based at Phibblestown near Ongar and Castaheany see www.joanburton.ie/ How long do we have to wait for additional secondary schools for Castleknock, Tyrellstown and the soon to be developed Hansfield (3500 plus apartment and houses).

Phibblestown is Hansfield.

dtf wrote: »

Population Howth, 20,052 = 3 councillors.
Population Mulhuddart, 53,306 = 4 councillors,

So you accept that you fabricated your figures?

Besides that, we have a lot of immigrants living in DUblin 15, who for one reason or another wouldn't complete the census.

Well its coming back to bite people now, isn't it?

Pat Dunne

Victor, I beg to differ the Post Primary school in Phibblestown and the proposed one in Hansfield as two entirely seperate entities. Phibblestown will cater for children living North of the Ongar road to the Navan road. Hansfield will cater for children living South of the Ongar road to the Liffey at Lucan

The Hansfield development has planning permission for 3500 housing units. So if there is only one child in every three units in Hansfield. That propsed school will be full as well! Bearing in mind your average post primary school has 1000 students.

Also there will be need for at least two primary schools in the Hansfield area as well.