Stopped for running red light

EricM

A few days ago in dublin city centre i was stopped by a garda for running a red light.

This was in 5.30pm rush hour traffic so i was moving at maybe 5mph approaching a traffic light at a small T junction (i was going straight, there was a very small road basically a lane to my right) which also had a pedestrian crossing.

The thing is there is only one set of lights, exactly before at the pedestrian crossing, and after the crossing there is a yellow box which of course you are not allowed to stop in.

So i was right at the yellow box waiting for it to clear for me to proceed through, at this point the traffic light is behind my car and i can no longer see it, there is not another set of lights in front of me at the other side of the junction.

While i was waiting the light changed to red which i was unaware, so i proceeded forward slowly as soon as the box was clear.

Right away after i did this garda on a motorbike flashes his lights and pulls me over.

He accuses me of running the light which i explained i couldnt see.
Checked my license, tax, insurance and let me off with a warning.

But still i feel i was accused of doing wrong where there was really nothing i could have done to prevent it.

dudara

My view on this is that you shouldn't enter a junction that you can't clear. And I would suppose that traffic lights mark the 'beginning' of the junction.

It's a tough one though because we can all get caught by slow drivers, people turning etc and then the lights change and you're stranded.

colm_mcm

you're not supposed to enter a junction unless your exit road is clear.

EDIT: Dudara got there before me!

Glad to see they're actually stopping people for running red lights, Every time I'm in the city centre, I see people breaking red lights and ignoring yellow boxes, no wonder the Luas has so many accidents.

EricM

The thing is i did not actually enter the junction.
I stopped right before the yellow box, but in this position i had already slightly passed the light so i couldnt see it.

oleras

EricM wrote: »

A few days ago in dublin city centre i was stopped by a garda for running a red light.

This was in 5.30pm rush hour traffic so i was moving at maybe 5mph approaching a traffic light at a small T junction (i was going straight, there was a very small road basically a lane to my right) which also had a pedestrian crossing.

The thing is there is only one set of lights, exactly before at the pedestrian crossing, and after the crossing there is a yellow box which of course you are not allowed to stop in.

So i was right at the yellow box waiting for it to clear for me to proceed through, at this point the traffic light is behind my car and i can no longer see it, there is not another set of lights in front of me at the other side of the junction.

While i was waiting the light changed to red which i was unaware, so i proceeded forward slowly as soon as the box was clear.

Right away after i did this garda on a motorbike flashes his lights and pulls me over.

He accuses me of running the light which i explained i couldnt see.
Checked my license, tax, insurance and let me off with a warning.

But still i feel i was accused of doing wrong where there was really nothing i could have done to prevent it.

You got off with a warning for running a red light, whats the issue here ? Just because you could not see it does not mean its not there, your gripe is with Dublin Corporation, not the Cop who let you off.

dudara

EricM wrote: »

The thing is i did not actually enter the junction.
I stopped right before the yellow box, but in this position i had already slightly passed the light so i couldnt see it.

I would consider the white line at the traffic light to mark the beginning of the junction. I'm open to correction on this one.

cyclopath2001

EricM wrote: »

The thing is there is only one set of lights, exactly before at the pedestrian crossing, and after the crossing there is a yellow box which of course you are not allowed to stop in. So i was right at the yellow box waiting for it to clear for me to proceed through

Was your car stopped blocking the pedestrian crossing?

mikemac

If you can't see the red light, then it wasn't there

EricM

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Was your car stopped blocking the pedestrian crossing?

Yes it was. Does that make a difference?
There is no yellow box covering the pedestrian crossing.
As traffic was slow but moving, and the light green when i crossed the white line, i had no idea the traffic would stop before i cleared the crossing, but i made sure to stop before entering the yellow box until it was clear.

Anan1

EricM wrote: »

The thing is i did not actually enter the junction.
I stopped right before the yellow box, but in this position i had already slightly passed the light so i couldnt see it.

Where did you stop relative to the white line?

EricM

Anan1 wrote: »

Where did you stop relative to the white line?

I would say my car had fully crossed the white line, and it was just a foot or two behind me.

knird evol

colm_mcm wrote: »

you're not supposed to enter a junction unless your exit road is clear.

Is that a moral or religious Law or something, because its certainly not a statutory one in this jurisdiction.

Guy:Incognito

EricM wrote: »

Yes it was. Does that make a difference?
There is no yellow box covering the pedestrian crossing.
As traffic was slow but moving, and the light green when i crossed the white line, i had no idea the traffic would stop before i cleared the crossing, but i made sure to stop before entering the yellow box until it was clear.

A yellow box isnt the only thing your not allowed stop on. Things like zebra crossings, pedestrina crossing, junctions etc are not places to stop.

knird evol wrote: »

Is that a moral or religious Law or something, because its certainly not a statutory one in this jurisdiction.

I'd imagine that, like me, most people see that as common sense. Why would you stop in the middle of a junction? It doesnt have to be in the rules of the road/legislation to be wrong or stupid.

dudara

EricM wrote: »

Yes it was. Does that make a difference?

I don't have the ROTR to hand here, but I thought that you are not supposed to stop on a pedestrian crossing.

EricM

Well actually i asked the garda was i supposed to wait where i stopped and continue to block the pedestrian crossing and he said yes.
Those werent the exact words but thats the way i understood it.

Stark

You shouldn't have entered the pedestrian crossing in the first place. You made a mistake, fair enough. The garda in question let you off with a warning. I don't see the problem.

colm_mcm

It's just common sense not to block pedestrian crossings,or junctions just like when stuck in traffic it's common sense not to block entrances that oncoming traffic may turn into.
This attitude is part of the reason our traffic is so bad and traffic junctions doesn't move properly

Wishbone Ash

Stekelly wrote: »

It doesnt have to be in the rules of the road/legislation to be wrong or stupid.

No, but a motorist can't be prosecuted for an offence which is not in the Statute Book.

(The Rules of the Road is not a legal document but merely a guide to driving from a safety point of view).

cyclopath2001

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

No, but a motorist can't be prosecuted for an offence which is not in the Statute Book.

Quite correct.

Interestingly, I have not found a specific prohibition on stopping on a pedestrian crossing. It's merely arguable whether or not you've broken the lights when the car is straddling the stop line or is partly past the signal and when the driver cannot see the lights.

OldmanMondeo

EricM wrote: »

Well actually i asked the garda was i supposed to wait where i stopped and continue to block the pedestrian crossing and he said yes.
Those werent the exact words but thats the way i understood it.

Well then, thats not what he said. You can not block a pedestrian crossing, YWhat if a blind person or someone in a wheel chair tried to cross? You should have waited before the white line at the traffic lights. I was told by a guard once that because I had stopped after the white line, even though the lights were green before I passed the light and got caught with the light changing, that I had broken the red light. You said he checked your details, expect a fine and possibly points.

wil

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Quite correct.

Interestingly, I have not found a specific prohibition on stopping on a pedestrian crossing. It's merely arguable whether or not you've broken the lights when the car is straddling the stop line or is partly past the signal and when the driver cannot see the lights.

cyclopath I'd imagine there is something in law about not going beyond stop line because many moons ago, on bicycle I got 2 (my 2 and only) summonses for breaking one set of lights and doing so too quickly (light with no left turn near Donnybrook). He had little to be doing, I am not denying the technical breach but in terms of safety, I was considerably safer carrying on to the next light to stop than waiting at the point I went through, but that is neither here nor there and separate discussion. AFAIR the first summons said - "did beyond the stop line proceed" second was less clear did proceed in a manner something something" - combined meaning I broke lights too fast.
"so beyond the stop line did proceed" is the relevent breach.

Got it quoshed cos he wrote wrong date, maybe on purpose, as a young fellow I might have enjoyed arguing the silliness of it all with the judge. :rolleyes:

DMC2005

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

No, but a motorist can't be prosecuted for an offence which is not in the Statute Book.

(The Rules of the Road is not a legal document but merely a guide to driving from a safety point of view).

This is a pretty simplistic view to take. A number of broad offences exist under which an individual could be prosecuted for offences which are not specifically prescribed.

For example, the statute book does not specifically prohibit someone from moving along at 2mph on the road, but it could fall under Section 98 of the Road Traffic Act — "A person shall not do any act (whether of commission or omission) which causes or is likely to cause traffic through any public place to be obstructed."

Indeed this offence could also apply to a person who has entered a junction while the light was green like the OP and then stopped inside the junction because it turned red.

I guess it would be up to the individual to argue with the judge as to whether they were likely to cause an obstruction, but in my view they wouldnt have a leg to stand on - the judge would simply hear "stopped in the middle of junction" and not really care about how they ended there.