IAA and Customs Seizures

BFSL

Hivemind187 wrote: »

Good gravy I only saw this now - good question Shiva.

Folks, we do have plans to contact the various different parties involved in the import/export system (ha!) but the truth is right now, considering the small number of members and the fact we are still putting things together to be an officially recognised body the amount of clout we would have is essentially nil.

We can contact retailers and sites and impress upon them the need to do this that or the other but in contacting the customs people etc we are just arsey cirtizens.

A few more members and the time to approach the situation correctly and we might be able to do something positive (at least get the customs people/gardai up to speed on the laws they are supposed to be aware of).

If anyone has specific incidences of this kind of malarky please drop us a pm and let us know anfd we will include it in our eventual approach to the authorities.

Hi Hivemind
Do you really need a lot of members to setup an official body?, because I think you need to setup as soon as possible, reason being that a governing body with a few members is better than no governing body, any voice has a better chance of being heard than none. I said this in August 06 and still there is no one representing the sport, this is not good. I suggested that you affiliate to the SSAI at the time, but no one wanted to be connected to the real steel associations for various reasons, but it is over a year since air soft was legalised and you could lose it over night if your not careful.

sidneyreilly

BFSL wrote: »

Hi Hivemind
Do you really need a lot of members to setup an official body?, because I think you need to setup as soon as possible, reason being that a governing body with a few members is better than no governing body, any voice has a better chance of being heard than none. I said this in August 06 and still there is no one representing the sport, this is not good. I suggested that you affiliate to the SSAI at the time, but no one wanted to be connected to the real steel associations for various reasons, but it is over a year since air soft was legalised and you could lose it over night if your not careful.

Agree with BFSL, you dont need the mandate of a percentage of the population of Ireland just the mandate of some of those involved and interested in you sport. Get at it, the clock does tick...

BFSL

The fear I have is after Christmas, when the hospitals are choca with kids (god forbid) with injurys, just like halloween, the gov will just say BAN.

Alvin T. Grey

I wouldn't worry Derek. It takes years to make something illegal.
Got to love all of that red tape.;)

du beton

As a newbie to the sport my opinion might not matter much but I have been reading ASI for a while and I see that in the UK they have influenced the VCRA by lobbying ie local politicians and members of the house of Commons etc. We can do that here for eg Local politicians in Drogheda can be lobbied from the point of view that the site recently set up there is bringing jobs and visitors to the area. We need to be sending e-mails and letters daily to all kinds of people like the minister for justice,defence and tourism. All we need is some one to lead the way. Lets make the people in power know what Airsoft is, what kind of people play the sport and its many positive aspects.

For eg I'm a 28 yr old , tax paying, civil servant.Until I learned earlier on in the year that Airsoft was legal I was going to buy a .22 rifle for target practice.I used to be in the FCA but instead of getting the real thing I can get a bigger kick out of going skirmishing with a bunch of like minded responsible people. One less real firearm for the government to worry about,my missus happy and I'm happy:).

ED E

du beton wrote: »

As a newbie to the sport my opinion might not matter much but I have been reading ASI for a while and I see that in the UK they have influenced the VCRA by lobbying ie local politicians and members of the house of Commons etc. We can do that here for eg Local politicians in Drogheda can be lobbied from the point of view that the site recently set up there is bringing jobs and visitors to the area. We need to be sending e-mails and letters daily to all kinds of people like the minister for justice,defence and tourism. All we need is some one to lead the way. Lets make the people in power know what Airsoft is, what kind of people play the sport and its many positive aspects.

For eg I'm a 28 yr old , tax paying, civil servant.Until I learned earlier on in the year that Airsoft was legal I was going to buy a .22 rifle for target practice.I used to be in the FCA but instead of getting the real thing I can get a bigger kick out of going skirmishing with a bunch of like minded responsible people. One less real firearm for the government to worry about,my missus happy and I'm happy:).

Dissagree. For the moment unless we have to keep it on the down low until we have more votes to sway.

Shiva

du beton wrote: »

As a newbie to the sport my opinion might not matter much

Completely disagree with you there

We all should have a say in how our sport develops, even the new guys. In fact, its new guys with fresh ideas that will help the sport flourish and develop.

And I agree with your main point with regard to lobbying, but I think we need to bide our time. When we have a bigger userbase, we'll have a wider reach for our views, and more clout with the powers that be.

Dr_Pepper

Shiva wrote: »

but I think we need to bide our time. When we have a bigger userbase, we'll have a wider reach for our views, and more clout with the powers that be.

But before that we need a fully functional governing body.

MaxForce

Shiva wrote: »

Completely disagree with you there

We all should have a say in how our sport develops, even the new guys. In fact, its new guys with fresh ideas that will help the sport flourish and develop.

And I agree with your main point with regard to lobbying, but I think we need to bide our time. When we have a bigger userbase, we'll have a wider reach for our views, and more clout with the powers that be.

Dr_Pepper wrote: »

But before that we need a fully functional governing body.

Agreed on all points. Lets not run befor we can crawl. 12 months is not a long time in a new sport but saying that I do feel that he IAA has greater focus now then when it started way back when.

du beton

seein as Shiva and BFSL seem to be the reliable Irish face of Retail Airsoft do you guys have any plans of setting up a body of your own, similar to UKARA in the UK ?.

My main point is simple I don't want to lose our sport through apathy,I am willing to do my bit:).

kdouglas

Lethal_Bullet wrote: »

Dissagree. For the moment unless we have to keep it on the down low until we have more votes to sway.

while the sport will always remain underground to a certain extent, i.e. not as well known as paintball, keeping things quiet is the equivalent of waiting until the sh!t hits the fan and then responding, we need to be (and are being) proactive on these things, get the good press out there, before any bad press arrvies

kdouglas

i've split these posts off from the original thread M14 seized by Customs

Gatling

all of the above are valid points ,but progress needs to be made soon ,firstly i beleive that we need a full time governing body to push the sport ,why think small get out and start making waves ,not many ppl have signed up for IAA membership. how come ??? its apathy mentality, it cant get banned it takes years B/S ,once a call for a ban is made who is going to stop it ,exactly . no governing body can be run part time ,how many ppl see Airsoft as a sport,how many ppl will fight for the sport

Gatling

should the retailers and skirmish site owner be collectively be working with the IAA in pushing membership along the VCR lines to purchase or skirmish you must have IAA membership ,not ur jobs i know ,business first ,but helping to protect the sport helps protect ur investments and future profits, the IAA are doing a good job ,but we as a group need to give the lads a hand and maybe a few hours of our free time ,at the end of the day ,a win / win situation for all

ambro25

Am with kdouglas on this.

Better make some positive noises now, no matter how 'big' or 'small' the IAA is, regarding the currently haphazard way in which sport equipment is handled (and I'm not just talking UPS, but also that IE online shop selling way-over-1J stuff).

In that same vein, Derek's comments about upcoming Xmas Season do very much echo: we've all to gain by being pro-active (being the very people shouting "won't ye think of he kids" ourselves :eek:), denouncing the abuse/danger (rather than illegality - that can be tacked on as a footnote ) by that IE online shop, making clear recommendations about the sport, its equipment, handling of same etc... rather than await the post-Xmas headlines of "small kids hurt by 400fps stuff" in silence, then suffer the consequences.

Endorsement of the IAA by legally-approved site operators and by retailers (they'll recognise themselves ) would go some way to prop this initial approach. Note I'm saying endorsement ("We support/approve of the IAA"), not abide/contract/anything like that.

Alternatively, should the IAA decide to wait in dependence on its numbers, then I have to ask: how many peeps is enough, to start doing something

Can help, have a 'legal head', will read pms

Hivemind187

Gatling wrote: »

all of the above are valid points ,but progress needs to be made soon ,firstly i beleive that we need a full time governing body to push the sport ,why think small get out and start making waves ,not many ppl have signed up for IAA membership. how come ??? its apathy mentality, it cant get banned it takes years B/S ,once a call for a ban is made who is going to stop it ,exactly . no governing body can be run part time ,how many ppl see Airsoft as a sport,how many ppl will fight for the sport

Can you pay my rent, feed me, clothe me and pay for my kit Gatling?

Believe me mate i would love to we independantly wealthy and able to dedicate all of my attentions to the IAA but in all honesty, there is no way in hell that is ever going to happen.

Unless of course there is an extremely wealthy benefactor out there who wishes to fund my decadent lifestyle in return for running the IAA full-time? Please?

Edit: I just read this back and it seems a little dismissive of me. Thats what happens when I havent had my morning coffee. Gatling, I agree with what you say in principal, and I wont deny your passion and optimism is quite refreshing but the sad truth is that the IAA members are worked half to death between the IAA and their jobs, familes, responsibilities and various (sometimes hilarious) injuries. the upshot of this is that we will be organising a number of things at a associatio nand public level very soon.

Hivemind187

ambro25 wrote: »

Am with kdouglas on this.

Better make some positive noises now, no matter how 'big' or 'small' the IAA is, regarding the currently haphazard way in which sport equipment is handled (and I'm not just talking UPS, but also that IE online shop selling way-over-1J stuff).

In that same vein, Derek's comments about upcoming Xmas Season do very much echo: we've all to gain by being pro-active (being the very people shouting "won't ye think of he kids" ourselves :eek:), denouncing the abuse/danger (rather than illegality - that can be tacked on as a footnote ) by that IE online shop, making clear recommendations about the sport, its equipment, handling of same etc... rather than await the post-Xmas headlines of "small kids hurt by 400fps stuff" in silence, then suffer the consequences.

Alternatively, should the IAA decide to wait in dependence on its numbers, then I have to ask: how many peeps is enough, to start doing something

Can help, have a 'legal head', will read pms

We'll be in touch shortly Ambro.

Shiva

Gatling wrote: »

should the retailers and skirmish site owner be collectively be working with the IAA in pushing membership along the VCR lines to purchase or skirmish you must have IAA membership ,not ur jobs i know ,business first ,but helping to protect the sport helps protect ur investments and future profits,

In a word, No.

Much as I enjoy the sport myself, and want to see it flourish, I will NEVER limit my sales to skirmishers only. If it becomes a legal requirement, I'll simply stop trading. I'd say about 60% of my sales to date have been to non-skirmishers. There just arent enough regular skirmishers in this country to support one airsoft retailer, never mind two. Derek and I need the non-skirmishers, plinkers and collectors to support our business. If we were to limit our sales to skirmishers only, pretty soon you'd be back to the situation you had six months ago where you had to import all your AEG's and equipment.

I agree completely that we should exercise some caution when selling our kit, but I believe we already do our best to make sure we're selling either to responsible adults, or if to a minor, only where a responsible parent or guardian gives approval. I've refused sales in the past where a prospective customer couldn't or wouldn't let me get in touch with a parent.

I fully support the IAA, and I'll do anything in my power to assist in self-regulation and promotion, but I'm not going to put myself out of business by selling only to "approved" skirmishers.

gandalf

First question is how many who replied to this thread have actually joined the IAA. I agree they should be proactive but after a brief chat with one of the lads on Saturday I am shocked at the low number of people who actually bothered to fill in the membership forms and return them.

First thing is to get the numbers up and then formulate a plan for talking to Gardai, Politicians and the Press. Make sure they are informed about the sport before an issue like "Dereks Christmas Carol" occurs.

Dave!

Alvin T. Grey wrote: »

I wouldn't worry Derek. It takes years to make something illegal.
Got to love all of that red tape.;)

Not necessarily! I refer you to the 'magic mushrooms' debacle a couple of years ago! That said, I don't think it's time to start cracking each others heads open, and feasting on the goo inside... not just yet.

But I wouldn't mind the IAA approaching customs about this.

Hivemind187

Shiva wrote: »

In a word, No.

Much as I enjoy the sport myself, and want to see it flourish, I will NEVER limit my sales to skirmishers only. If it becomes a legal requirement, I'll simply stop trading. I'd say about 60% of my sales to date have been to non-skirmishers. There just arent enough regular skirmishers in this country to support one airsoft retailer, never mind two. Derek and I need the non-skirmishers, plinkers and collectors to support our business. If we were to limit our sales to skirmishers only, pretty soon you'd be back to the situation you had six months ago where you had to import all your AEG's and equipment.

I agree completely that we should exercise some caution when selling our kit, but I believe we already do our best to make sure we're selling either to responsible adults, or if to a minor, only where a responsible parent or guardian gives approval. I've refused sales in the past where a prospective customer couldn't or wouldn't let me get in touch with a parent.

I fully support the IAA, and I'll do anything in my power to assist in self-regulation and promotion, but I'm not going to put myself out of business by selling only to "approved" skirmishers.

Thanks Shiva and I fully agree with your statement. Licensing or demands for membership is an unworkable idea. We simply havent the numbers and in all honesty, these devices are not dangerous and their sale to responsible adults should be without restriction in this manner.

In England they have created a closed sport scenario and it remains to be seen how badly affected the businesses will be, we have no long term information as yet but economics suggests, fewer people able to purchase will equate to fewer sales.

The IAA would prefer a situation in which sales are only made to people who can present ID proving their age. Their should be no onus on retailers or any other commercial interest to do more than this and excersising good judgement (i.e., not selling to someone wearin a stripey shirt and a hat that say "I luv to Rob Banks").

Hivemind187

gandalf wrote: »

First question is how many who replied to this thread have actually joined the IAA. I agree they should be proactive but after a brief chat with one of the lads on Saturday I am shocked at the low number of people who actually bothered to fill in the membership forms and return them.

We have had a few more in since then. Surprisingly it as a number of the Fillipino chaps that have signed up! Which to my mind is great, non-native support all round

BFSL

Alvin T. Grey wrote: »

I wouldn't worry Derek. It takes years to make something illegal.
Got to love all of that red tape.;)

Look at Dunblane, just weeks.

BFSL

Shiva wrote: »

In a word, No.

Much as I enjoy the sport myself, and want to see it flourish, I will NEVER limit my sales to skirmishers only. If it becomes a legal requirement, I'll simply stop trading. I'd say about 60% of my sales to date have been to non-skirmishers. There just arent enough regular skirmishers in this country to support one airsoft retailer, never mind two. Derek and I need the non-skirmishers, plinkers and collectors to support our business. If we were to limit our sales to skirmishers only, pretty soon you'd be back to the situation you had six months ago where you had to import all your AEG's and equipment.

I agree completely that we should exercise some caution when selling our kit, but I believe we already do our best to make sure we're selling either to responsible adults, or if to a minor, only where a responsible parent or guardian gives approval. I've refused sales in the past where a prospective customer couldn't or wouldn't let me get in touch with a parent.

I fully support the IAA, and I'll do anything in my power to assist in self-regulation and promotion, but I'm not going to put myself out of business by selling only to "approved" skirmishers.

I have to agree with Tony on this, I sell more pistols to real steel shooters than skirmishers. I am in this for the business, as is Tony, and I am doing everything in my power to insure that anything I sell will not fall into the hands of undesirables. I do believe that a certain amount of control can be implemented that can help everyone, that control can only come from a governing body meeting with Justice and the governing body giving guidelines that helps us all, after all I think it would be fair to say that all involved in the sport, would like to see more, responsible retailers on their doorstep than less.

sidneyreilly

Alvin T. Grey wrote: »

I wouldn't worry Derek. It takes years to make something illegal.
Got to love all of that red tape.;)

Alvin, all they have to do is make a simple change with a pen from 1 Joule to 0.20 joule (despite Garda ballistic groans at having to again test every single seized toy) and ye are out of the game and seeking a firearms certificate for each airsoft you possess, no guarantee you will get it following bad press either. Don’t for a second think that anyone in the government or otherwise will object to such an amendment following a "shocking" incident (i.e. someone being shot by the authorities in the wrong wielding an airsoft or replica). Simply it will be here today and gone tomorrow.

ED E

kdouglas wrote: »

while the sport will always remain underground to a certain extent, i.e. not as well known as paintball, keeping things quiet is the equivalent of waiting until the sh!t hits the fan and then responding, we need to be (and are being) proactive on these things, get the good press out there, before any bad press arrvies

No, I think we should be ready for that eventuality but dont prevoke controversy before we have to. The longer we wait the more influence we have. There are new people playing every week. The longer we wait the bettter IMHO.

ambro25

Lethal_Bullet wrote:

The longer we wait the bettter IMHO.

Not while digital-u-know-who.dot.ie sells sniping stuff rated at US-type velocities. I may not be so categorical if every other IE retailer was ensuring any AEG/springer sold is legal.

That allegedly may not be the case anymorem, whereby it then simply becomes a question of time: remember that the oft-quoted UK Forensics stats, with reference to damage/penetration/injuries, are based more-or-less at 1J.

We have the tactical advantage in that we know the potential for sh1t-big problems with this, whereby either 'we' put a stop to it soon, by positive media or whatever other 'representations' (inform the public/powers that be, rather than denounce), or the tabloids will sooner or later get the tactical advantage and, given how small we still are (and probably still will be by then), we'll never get back up from it.

We're not in Kansas anymore, Total_Bullet

EDIT - noted in the meantime that digital-u-know-who.dot.ie has replied that the velocities quoted are incorrect and resulted from an honest mistake.

N.O.I.P.

Actually since the IAA contacted them digi-me-whotsit.ie (just sounds wrong doesn't it ) have gone so far as to remove the offending items from their page.

Read your DHL thread by the way, shame about the end they should have gotten down on their knees and begged for your forgiveness

ambro25 wrote: »

We're not in Kansas anymore, Total_Bullet

Nice

Fallschirmjager

BFSL wrote: »

I have to agree with Tony on this, I sell more pistols to real steel shooters than skirmishers. I am in this for the business, as is Tony, and I am doing everything in my power to insure that anything I sell will not fall into the hands of undesirables. I do believe that a certain amount of control can be implemented that can help everyone, that control can only come from a governing body meeting with Justice and the governing body giving guidelines that helps us all, after all I think it would be fair to say that all involved in the sport, would like to see more, responsible retailers on their doorstep than less.

firstly to you and shiva i say hear hear and i might add i totally agree.

i also totally agree with what gandalf said and i might add its why i didnt respond on this issue until now.

i am not in the IAA for one reason i will gladly explain to Hivemind or any other IAA representative when i finally bump into them at HRTA and dont want to go into it here as it will just go round-robin on us and divert off the thread.

speaking as an outsider (i.e. a non IAA member) i think if you have not filled in an application form and returned it, well, you give up the right to argue or moan. Now i know right about now, some of you are saying, well why dont you STFU then but please read on....

we all need to accept that the IAA is going to have to do some pretty unfavourable things to people on this board to get airsoft where it needs to be. If you dont understand that, well you have not thought about it as much as you should. i certainly dont envy them but i sure am delighted they have taken the task. there is no charge to join currently. think about that, no charge...i dont know anything, anywhere that is free and yet we dont have a high takeup in membership.

We should prepare for the inevitable accident and as usual in ireland : lets blame the business who supplied or maybe supplied or supplied once upon a time or knew someone who knew someone etc etc etc. there is little personal acceptance of responsibility in ireland, everyone wants someone to blame, in fact its that type of nanny statism i wish with every fibre of my body would be expunged from irish society, but i digress.

We all do need to understand one thing, the success of the IAA should lead to the introduction of a VCRA like legislation here. I would see that as a marker of success, a major milestone. Now before you scream and shout, here is why. The longer we dont, the higher the risk we wont control it when it does appear. I would far far far prefer a VCRA in ireland that the IAA had input into then one they did not. I am fairly certain that this will also affect the sellers. I think this issue has arisen due to ambiguous parts of the law. I still feel, airsoft is legal by accident or a loophole if you will, rather then by design.

Do i believe we need a vcra? no. do I think it will work? no will it have one iota of effect on crime? as i bust my ass laughing, i say..NO. but will it come, yes i believe it will.

This issue of the customs seizures is a temperature gauge. we have reached a boiling point on some level. airsoft has reached a critical mass, that customs have noticed. Their maybe a myriad of reasons why it happened now, but from one reading over 60 packages are on hold. that is no small number for a one or 2 week delivery period. this is also good news, although if you are waiting as i am for a delivery, its hard to believe it as good news. we are a lot stronger then we believe. i think we should move away from terms like small. airsoft is no longer small. it isnt big but to quote churchill (a bit OTT i agree) it is not the beginning of the end, but it is the end of the beginning.

The big question is how to utilize this hidden support. Like all in Ireland, we dont like authority. it is something to be avoided or ignored but rarely faced. i am as guilty as the next man of that. i dont think its fair to expect the IAA to begin the battle here, with customs. we are picking a fight with the wrong people, they only implement, and one many have tried and failed before. i think the IAA should focus on a larger battleground and one no one has started to play yet on. The lawmakers are the playmakers here. In the space of 6 months we have moved from one site to 4. I am sure many more are considering it. We have moved from 5 and 6 people every saturday to 30-40 on the new HRTA site (and i would argue as many more still driving around swords trying to find it!). We have many many nationalities allowing for yet another place for people to mix and match. I find it always hilarious that we are positioned as a bunch of right wing red necks by the the very people who complain about a polish girl serving latte in the wrong cup).

So speaking to the IAA, as someone who has no right to do so, i think the customs issue is a milestone, a horrible one, but lets be honest, we all knew this was coming..it was a matter of when not if. So if like me you are waiting and hoping on a package, sit back and think of this....airsoft has arrived.....

kdouglas

Excellent post Fall

*** round of applause ***

Dr_Pepper

Well said Fall, agreed whole heartedly.

I would like to add that i have now filled out my IAA application

kdouglas

i have also filled mine out, but it's been sitting on my desk for the last couple of days, im gonna go find an envelope and post it

Edit:
ok, found an envelope (albeit a semi-used one, but itll do), now i just need to find a stamp

also, for anyone attending HRTA this weekend, i have 50 copies of the IAA membership application form and code of conduct sitting in my car ready to be signed, just bring a photocopy of relevant ID

Gatling

excellent post FALL one of the best posts ive read on here,
i havent filled in my application yet due to a small problem explained to hivemind a few weeks ago ,
im not in favour of the full vcr just the parts concerning airsoft ,ie membership of clubs and the like,
Shiva and BFSL i understand about the business stance ,at times i get over excited about things and can come across totaly wrong ,
or just annoying but thats just me ,
my only fear for airsoft we will stay an underground sport/hobby,when worldwide its almost mainstream ,
in the space of a under a year 2 retailers based in here and now 3 skirmish sites ,
we aint doing to bad ,im looking foreward to seeing Airsoft grow and mature in ireland