Immigration Control Platform on Youtube

JohnWK

Hi guys.
I was browsing the internet and came across this youtube video.
http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=SZRc3rNqlUo

Ted Neville of the Immigration Control Platform speaking about immigration on the radio a while ago. There are a few more interesting video clips also.

Immigration to Ireland in my view will be the greatest problem this country will face in the near future. The Irish people were never once consulted over the issue and no mandate was ever given for what can only be described as an invasion of our homeland.

Before the new countries joined the EU we were given assurances by our politicians that we would not experience this massive wave of immigration.

Dick Roche told us that ''there is no reason to believe that large numbers of workers will wish to come'' (Irish Times letters 12-7-02)

While Proinsias De Rossa claimed that ''it is a deliberate misrepresentation to suggest that tens of thousands will suddenly descend en masse on Ireland''

Anyone who dared question this was immediately denigrated a racist.

No the government have admitted that they don't know how many foreigners there are in the country!! 15% / 20% foreign born?! What a joke! The recent census was an absolute mess. Who is to be held accountable?

If immigration is to continue into Ireland at its current unsustainable rate we WILL become a minority in our own country.

I for one am glad to see Ted Neville and the ICP speak out against this invasion and there are many more like me. Many more who are afraid to raise their concerns for fear of being labeled ''racist'' or some other nasty word.

This is the multiculturalist way of ensuring no proper debate will ever take place on this issue.

silverharp

JohnWK wrote: »

Hi guys.
I was browsing the internet and came across this youtube video.

you seem very well informed for someone who happened to stumble across the video. Come on now own up, you are connected to them in some way

JohnWK wrote: »

Immigration to Ireland in my view will be the greatest problem this country will face in the near future.

I could think of several other issues that are of higher priority, so me thinks you should develop a more thought out world view

JohnWK wrote: »

If immigration is to continue into Ireland at its current unsustainable rate we WILL become a minority in our own country.

by definition if something is unsustainable they tend to reverse.

JohnWK

silverharp wrote: »

you seem very well informed for someone who happened to stumble across the video. Come on now own up, you are connected to them in some way

I could think of several other issues that are of higher priority, so me thinks you should develop a more thought out world view




by definition if something is unsustainable they tend to reverse.

I would consider myself well informed on the subject of immigration,
a quick search in youtube for ''immigration ireland'' landed me there.

several other issues such as?

liberty 2007

silverharp wrote: »

you seem very well informed for someone who happened to stumble across the video. Come on now own up, you are connected to them in some way

This is tipical of the type of witch hunting, finger pointing, attatude that has people frightened to speak out!!

silverharp

liberty 2007 wrote: »

This is tipical of the type of witch hunting, finger pointing, attatude that has people frightened to speak out!!

just suspicious, 1st time poster linking to a party interview and using a lot of hyperbole that he fears he could become a minority group. so he thinks there is going to be in excess of 4million immigrants coming to ireland in the next 10 years

jank

OK although not a fan of the immigation control crowd, we need a discussion on this topic.

The thing is if anybody has even a slightly negative view on immigation then they are branded racist and that gawls me.

This is tipical of the type of witch hunting, finger pointing, attatude that has people frightened to speak out!!

Exactly. Bullying the messenger is not the way to go imo.

Andrew 83

JohnWK wrote: »

This is the multiculturalist way of ensuring no proper debate will ever take place on this issue.

What exactly are your problems with immigration other than an increase in the numbers of foreign born people in the country? What exactly renders it the 'greatest problem' facing the country?

silverharp

I don't see eastern european immigration as being a problem (or the greatest problem). Either the rate will slow down when we have a recession and alot will go back or they will stay and have kids who will have fully integrated within a generation.

Karl Hungus

jank wrote: »

Exactly. Bullying the messenger is not the way to go imo.

Bullying? Bull**** tbh.

The guy's signed up to post this, and it certainly seems suspect that he might have some connection to the ICP. There's no 'Bullying' going on in calling out what is obvious. I'd have no problem what so ever if this guy came along and said "Hi guys, I'm from the ICP and I'd like to discuss this issue with you." However, I've no time for anyone who signs up and gives an opinion under false pretences.

It's an attempt at subversion, just like shills who come pimping a product, yet claim they're just honest users, and if this is how those ICP guys act, it would certainly call into question their honesty and I would be hesitant to trust anything they would say in future because of this incident. It's political shilling, and not only should be rightly frowned up, it's just going to damage whatever goal the poster had set out to acheive.

I may agree that the level of immigration is problematic, but because of this kind of dishonest crap, I'm not going to give the ICP one moment of my time.

Kintarō Hattori

Patriot_man wrote: »

wow, you really do come across as a liberal facist. Have you any actual proof that this man is connected to the ICP? Otherwise you need to apoligise.

And JohnWK, I salute you. You are a true partiot.

What's a partiot? Anywhoooo, I'm a little uncomfortable with the language the OP is using. I'd hardly call it an invasion.

From the language your using, you come across a little xenophobic.

leninbenjamin

Patriot_man wrote: »

liberal facist.

what an original oxymoron. any credibility you're posts might have had just flew out the window there for me...

this entire thread smacks of scaremongering and complete lack of understanding tbh...

NOOOOOOO!!! I wasted my 1000th post on this!!!! :mad:

Zombrex

JohnWK wrote: »

The Irish people were never once consulted over the issue and no mandate was ever given for what can only be described as an invasion of our homeland.

I seem to remember anti-immigration groups running in a number elections over the last few years, and getting a tiny amount of the vote.

What "consultation" were you expecting?

JohnWK wrote: »

Dick Roche told us that ''there is no reason to believe that large numbers of workers will wish to come'' (Irish Times letters 12-7-02)

Then don't vote for Dick Roche.

JohnWK wrote: »

Anyone who dared question this was immediately denigrated a racist.

Who is "anyone"? And who labeled them racist?

JohnWK wrote: »

No the government have admitted that they don't know how many foreigners there are in the country!! 15% / 20% foreign born?! What a joke! The recent census was an absolute mess. Who is to be held accountable?

The government, obviously. I suggest you don't vote for them in the next election.

JohnWK wrote: »

If immigration is to continue into Ireland at its current unsustainable rate we WILL become a minority in our own country.

You see its kinda hard to take a post like yours seriously when you come out with things like this.

For a start, as has already been pointed out, an unsustainable rate won't be sustained, so it cannot continue. Therefore saying that this unsustainable rate will continue is highly illogical

Secondly for "us" (I assume you mean people born here) to become a minority in our country we would need over 5 million immigrants to arrive in the next few years. Considering there aren't 5 million jobs or 5 million houses going to waste are the moment, or in the foreseeable future, that is simply never going to happen. Why would 5 million immigrants even come here?

So again, the biggest problem, in my view, with any debate on this topic is that the anti-immigration crowd always go to utterly ridiculous extremes in an attempt to scaremonger people into thinking immigration is going to cause the world to end. People just don't take that seriously anymore. We have had high levels of immigration into this country for the last 15 years, and the world hasn't ended. The idea that all these huge supposed problems is just around the corner just doesn't wash anymore.

If there was an actual serious problem with immigration no doubt you guys would be pointing that out. The very fact that you have to invent silly arguments , such as saying we will be a minority in the next few years, just leads to the conclusion that you guys don't actually know what the real problems immigration creates. So again no one takes you seriously.

I'm pro-immigration, but it would be very foolish of me to assume I know every problem that immigration can bring. After all part of being pro-immigration is making life for immigrants easier, which means addressing these problems.

I'm sure there are actual problems that movement of large groups of people brings. But its clear you guys aren't the ones to discuss that with, since you don't know what they are. I would love, just once, to have a proper discussion with someone on this forum who isn't a frothing at the mouth anti-immigration supporter who is droning on about how immigration will cause the end of Ireland as we know it, because such rhetoric is just nonsense.

Change the record, it seems to be skipping ...

JohnWK wrote: »

and there are many more like me.

There are?

What, do they just not vote?

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

flogen

Wicknight wrote: »

There are?

What, do they just not vote?

Apparently they're part of the silent majority - their silence must extend to the ballot box :rolleyes:

Great post Wicknight, by the way. Ireland certainly does need a serious discussion about immigration but the vocal of those opposed to it don't seem to agree (nor do some in favour, it must be said).

Slightly OT I was disgusted to see Kevin Myers on the Late Late talking about this, trying to act the honest broker on the Issue. This at the same time he's writing columns saying we should look at banning Muslims from Ireland because they're Muslims. If only Pat Kenny was more willing and better researched he wouldn't have been let away with it.

billy the squid

JohnWK wrote: »

Hi guys.
I was browsing the internet and came across this youtube video.
http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=SZRc3rNqlUo

Ted Neville of the Immigration Control Platform speaking about immigration on the radio a while ago. There are a few more interesting video clips also.

The youtube channel is only a few days old yet this is not the first message board where someone accidentily stumbled upon it. So, you will have to excuse the suspicions.

Immigration to Ireland in my view will be the greatest problem this country will face in the near future. The Irish people were never once consulted over the issue and no mandate was ever given for what can only be described as an invasion of our homeland.

We didn't consult the indians about invading the american continent either. but then there you go. People will go where the work is, the same way we did in the eighties. it is the way the world works.

If immigration is to continue into Ireland at its current unsustainable rate we WILL become a minority in our own country.

I for one am glad to see Ted Neville and the ICP speak out against this invasion and there are many more like me. Many more who are afraid to raise their concerns for fear of being labeled ''racist'' or some other nasty word.

I take it then they were so afraid that they chose not to cast a SECRET BALLOT for Mr. Neville or any of the other ICP goons when they ran for election in May.

The new Mayor of Portlaoise received more first preference votes in a local election than Ted Neville did in the General election

leninbenjamin

aww who deleted patriot_mans posts? they were hilarious...

"a patriot is someone who has patriotism..."

marcsignal

Karl Hungus wrote: »

I'd have no problem what so ever if this guy came along and said "Hi guys, I'm from the ICP and I'd like to discuss this issue with you." However, I've no time for anyone who signs up and gives an opinion under false pretences.

I'm with you there karl.

There does need to be honest, open debate about the issue, sure, and it's a shame the OP's attempt to begin a discussion was so obviously, loaded and clumsy.
However, I think proper debate, up until lately, has been stifled in Ireland by the PC brigade, and that is unhelpful too.
Personally, i'd like to see more integration, and tougher action taken to remove those immigrants who have proved themselves to be chancers and fraudsters, but otherwise i've no issue over immigration as a whole.
Anyway, it's all largely irelevant for me now, personally, as i'm not living in Ireland at this point.

Wicknight wrote: »

the biggest problem, in my view, with any debate on this topic is that the anti-immigration crowd always go to utterly ridiculous extremes in an attempt to scaremonger people into thinking immigration is going to cause the world to end.

I agree with almost everything in your post wicknight, but you gotta admit ‘Rosanna Flynn’ from RAR, for example, has come out with a few ‘Hysterical Gems’ herself from time to time, about people facing potential decapitation by the secret police, and such like, if they're sent back to their country of origin, etc etc.. all proven to be rubbish.

JohnWK

Andrew 83 wrote: »

What exactly are your problems with immigration other than an increase in the numbers of foreign born people in the country? What exactly renders it the 'greatest problem' facing the country?

My problem with immigration is that there are far too many foreigners in the country! So many that the government have lost count.

An yet we are expected to believe that with absolutely no policy or thought, that we can avoid the problems of every other European nation that has experienced immigration.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7l8AG1SMFk
Multicultural societies have never worked before so it is very silly to assume that it will work for us.

JohnWK

billy the squid wrote: »

The new Mayor of Portlaoise received more first preference votes in a local election than Ted Neville did in the General election

Maybe if the other side of the debate was heard rather than silenced by political correctness, more people might be aware that immigration control candidates exist.

Zombrex

marcsignal wrote: »

I agree with almost everything in your post wicknight, but you gotta admit ‘Rosanna Flynn’ from RAR, for example, has come out with a few ‘Hysterical Gems’ herself from time to time, about people facing potential decapitation by the secret police, and such like, if they're sent back to their country of origin, etc etc.. all proven to be rubbish.

I will certain "admit" that.

But I'm not a member of Residents Against Racism, nor a supporter. Personally I think a lot of their campaigns, while meaning well, were silly to the point of being moronic. They seem (and I might be wrong about this, I would be the first to admit I don't follow them closely) to oppose deportation automatically by default, without consideration as to why a person is being deported.

I see little evidence to believe that the asylum processing system in Ireland as a whole is racist, nor the deportation system in Ireland is racist. So quite why RaR have such a bee in its bonnet about people being deported I'm not sure.

But like I said I don't follow the organization that closely.

Zombrex

JohnWK wrote: »

Maybe if the other side of the debate was heard rather than silenced by political correctness, more people might be aware that immigration control candidates exist.

Groan :rolleyes:

The cry that ones position is being censored seems to be the last refugee of people who actually don't have a good enough point to let it stand on its own.

Having had this discussion with Christian Creationists over their claim that the scientific community silences scientists with evidence of Intelligent Design, I have little patience for the same nonsense argument here, that the "PC brigade" some how silences people who are opposed to immigration.

It seems all the Irish talked about any more is immigration, there are tons of people who have gone for public service position on the grounds of opposing immigration (none have so far been that successful), and this discussion site alone seems to have a new immigration thread every few days.

There is a difference between an argument being silenced and a position being ignored

The argument that immigration is going to destroy this country is not being silenced (quite the opposite in fact), it is simply being ignored because it is a ridiculous argument.

Most people, back here in the real world, don't want to waste energy debating imaginary scenarios and imaginary threats that have no bearing on what is actually happening, when there is so many real issues to discuss.

Zombrex

JohnWK wrote: »

My problem with immigration is that there are far too many foreigners in the country!

Too many for what?

Too many to avoid the issues of having that number of immigrates in the country?

Well I ain't going to argue with you there :rolleyes:

JohnWK wrote: »

Multicultural societies have never worked before so it is very silly to assume that it will work for us.

Ireland has been a multicultural society for thousands of years, so I'm not quite sure where you are getting that from?

JohnWK

JohnWK wrote: »

Maybe if the other side of the debate was heard rather than silenced by political correctness, more people might be aware that immigration control candidates exist.

Well in fairness now,we are still waiting for you to put that case.
Could you give us a bullet point summary (with references to the problem you have with whatever) ?

marcsignal

ok johnWK, I'll forgive you you're clumsy, forgive me, dceptive intro but..

JohnWK wrote: »

My problem with immigration is that there are far too many foreigners in the country!

you really should refrain from outbursts like that if you are going to be taken seriously here. thats not having a poke at you, just some advice.

JohnWK wrote: »

So many that the government have lost count.

this is true, but again i blame the pc brigade, because from the beginning they considered the very existance of immigration law as inherrently racist, which of course is nonsense.

Just as an example of the moronic extremes the PC brigade go to to patronise the rest of us, see the image below...coats with these buttons were recently pulled from the shops here where i am in germany...see if you can guess why ??

Maclommis

Wicknight wrote: »

It seems all the Irish talked about any more is immigration

And does that not tell you something? Maybe people are talking about it because they think it's an important issue that will have a major impact on the future of this country.

there are tons of people who have gone for public service position on the grounds of opposing immigration

Tons of people? I'd be surprised if you could list more than five.

(none have so far been that successful)

How many votes did the More-Immigration Party get in the last general election?

and this discussion site alone seems to have a new immigration thread every few days.

Again, does that not tell you something. Why is that threads on this site that touch on immigration usually end up going over 5 or 6 pages while threads on more trendy liberal issues such as the misdemeanours of high-ranking members of the Bush administration usually die a quick death? Is it possible that immigration might be a huge domestic issue that Irish people are concerned about?

The argument that immigration is going to destroy this country is not being silenced (quite the opposite in fact), it is simply being ignored because it is a ridiculous argument.

It could be that it's a ridiculous argument or it could be that people like yourself just aren't able to respond to the argument with anything other than the same tired old platitudes.

I remember seeing another thread on another site where someone with the same user name as yourself was asked to answer some very simple and very reasonable questions on their views but that person seemed to run off without answering half of them. Maybe I'm wrong but it just seemed to me that you weren't able to answer them.

And if immigration is a ridiculous issue why aren't you ignoring it in this thread?

Most people, back here in the real world, don't want to waste energy debating imaginary scenarios and imaginary threats that have no bearing on what is actually happening, when there is so many real issues to discuss.

Real issues like crime and education and the health service and housing and the infastructure. Of course none of those things are any way related to or in any way impacted by immigration.

Too many for what?

Too many for a island of only 6 million people.

A million foreigners have settled in Britain over the last ten years. In Ireland we've had more than 400,000 people settle here. The population of Britain is around 60 million people. I'll let you do the maths.

Ireland has been a multicultural society for thousands of years

You have got to be taking the urine. Ireland has never been anything like a multicultural country.

It's true that one part of Ireland is more ethnically diverse than the rest but I'm not sure if many people would call it a successful example of multiculturalism.

Maclommis

Maclommis wrote: »

And does that not tell you something?

Yeah,it tells me that you are a reregistered previously banned user.

How many votes did the More-Immigration Party get in the last general election?

you mean the more from the existing EU party?Theres a few of them that are big so the answer would be -lets see...
Millions.

Again, does that not tell you something. Why is that threads on this site that touch on immigration usually end up going over 5 or 6 pages while threads on more trendy liberal issues such as the misdemeanours of high-ranking members of the Bush administration usually die a quick death? Is it possible that immigration might be a huge domestic issue that Irish people are concerned about?

I'd imagine because we like making little of your arguments.
Read back and see what most of the posts in such threads say:rolleyes:

It could be that it's a ridiculous argument or it could be that people like yourself just aren't able to respond to the argument with anything other than the same tired old platitudes.

Thats bordering on the delusional.
No actually that is delusional.

I remember seeing another thread on another site where someone with the same user name as yourself was asked to answer some very simple and very reasonable questions on their views but that person seemed to run off without answering half of them. Maybe I'm wrong but it just seemed to me that you weren't able to answer them.

He probably didn't have enough evidence to prove that the biological make up of a black person is the same as a white person.I wouldn't worry about it.
Just get a sophisticated firewall that blocks all sites on the interweb bar stormfront and you'll be ok.

And if immigration is a ridiculous issue why aren't you ignoring it in this thread?

See above,we sometimes like ridiculing ridiculous arguments.

Real issues like crime and education and the health service and housing and the infastructure. Of course none of those things are any way related to or in any way impacted by immigration.

Of course they are.Some good impacts and some less good.

Too many for a island of only 6 million people.

A million foreigners have settled in Britain over the last ten years. In Ireland we've had more than 400,000 people settle here. The population of Britain is around 60 million people. I'll let you do the maths.

I think your 400,000 figure is way out but how and ever-why didnt you present the maths on our lowest ever unemployment rate and how the excess of jobs could never have been filled without an influx of people from the rest of the E.U?

I'll make a suggestion.
Hop back over to stormfront where you won't have to deal much with the reality of the acceptance and good points of multiculturalism.

marcsignal

I think its a pity that threads regarding this topic often often degenerate into a slagging match and mud slinging between posters (not pointing any fingers particularlly) because it is an important issue.

I think there are genuine concerns regarding immigration, but having said that i don't have any time for anyone who is opposed to immigration because they just don't want blacks, or muslims or whatever, living in Ireland.
I do think though there are real issues that may present problems in the future unless we take a pragmatic look at the problems other countries have had, and address them.

It is difficult in such a politically correct society to voice concerns without someone taking the easy way out and calling you a nazi, or a racist. I think that is potentially dangerous because it prevents real concerns being voiced and thats no good for anyone.

I don't see anything wrong with taking measures to control the amount of people coming to Ieland, if a study was to show that maybe the economy was slowing down and that there would be more competition for jobs etc.

As regards deportation, cases often drag on and on and on and this infuriates many people, understandably.

As regards some of the crazy PC extremes, I'd like to be able to order a black coffee in a cafe without someone thinking i'm Heinrich Himmler.

Recently a Nigerian solicitor was arrested and charged with people trafficing in Ireland. He was charged and is now in jail i think ? and rightly so, but i felt there was little said about it in the news. I can't help thinking, if he was an White Irish solicitor, people, and the media would have been after his head, and his face would have become a symbol of white exploitation of vulnerable immigrants.

I can't deal with the whole PC concept, the idea, that before you do or say anything in a situation with a person from a different culture/race, you have to, or are expected to, treat that person in a specific way, JUST because they are from a different culture ?? It just often sems weighted and one sided. Surely it's not wrong or racist to expect a certain degree of integration from immigrants ?

Nobody is asking or expecting immigrants to sell out on their own culture or anything like that. Many foreigners running shops and businesses in Ireland also hold the view that they wouldn't like to see whole streets or districts become black or muslim or chinese (or whatever) areas exclusively.

I'm much more comfortable with 'mutual respect' it still works for me, because respect must be shown to be earned.

liberty 2007

Andrew 83 wrote: »

What exactly are your problems with immigration other than an increase in the numbers of foreign born people in the country? What exactly renders it the 'greatest problem' facing the country?

Show examples in history where there has been migration on a scale similer to what we are experiencing that did not end in etnic conflect or persecution?
Because I don't know of any!

liberty 2007

billy the squid wrote: »

The youtube channel is only a few days old yet this is not the first message board where someone accidentily stumbled upon it. So, you will have to excuse the suspicions.



We didn't consult the indians about invading the american continent either. but then there you go. People will go where the work is, the same way we did in the eighties. it is the way the world works.



I take it then they were so afraid that they chose not to cast a SECRET BALLOT for Mr. Neville or any of the other ICP goons when they ran for election in May.

The new Mayor of Portlaoise received more first preference votes in a local election than Ted Neville did in the General election

So, is it ok that we may suffer the same fate as the American indians?

liberty 2007

liberty 2007 wrote: »

Show examples in history where there has been migration on a scale similer to what we are experiencing that did not end in etnic conflect or persecution?
Because I don't know of any!

Uhm..Irish imigration to the U.S.A

So, is it ok that we may suffer the same fate as the American indians?

You expect that to happen do you?
That supposition is so divorced from reality it hardly deserves comment.
The proponents of it of course such as yourself always ignore pertinent facts that don't suit your racism.
For example,amongst other things:
(1)That people legally allowed to come here,do so only when jobs are available.Thats their sole motive,they're not here for the scenery,the weather or to steal our guinness.
(2)They're contributing to the growth of our economy whilst here.

liberty 2007

Tristrame wrote: »

Uhm..Irish imigration to the U.S.A.

That's the worst possible example!!
I'v posted this before, but I'll say it again. There was a saying in Amarica, "the only good indian is a dead indian" The man who said it was General Sheirdan, Is perents immigrated to America to make a new life for themselves and the unfortunate natives never stood a chance. Now I'll ask the question again, give me an example where this kind of migration did not cause conflect?

liberty 2007

liberty 2007 wrote: »

That's the worst possible example!!
I'v posted this before, but I'll say it again. There was a saying in Amarica, "the only good indian is a dead indian" The man who said it was General Sheirdan, Is perents immigrated to America to make a new life for themselves and the unfortunate natives never stood a chance. Now I'll ask the question again, give me an example where this kind of migration did not cause conflect?

Huh.That question is a misnomer.
You want to give the states back to the Indians,the australia's back to the aboriginee's? The mitchelstown caves back to the cavemen aswell while you're proposing your misnomer?
The last census did not state that 10% of the population here was foreign but even if it were,you're expecting riots?
Where are the riots ?
You seem to be expecting a complete reversal of societal modernity-As I said thats in need of a reality check.
Only 20 years ago,Irelands population was being bled dry with people in their thousands being economic migrants to Britain and the U.S-None of them rioted there,they worked hard.
Whats so different with the polish or the latvians ?
It's so ridiculous to suggest this apparent reversal in societal modernity that you imply is going to happen.Theres no modern European precedent and absolutely no indication for your concerns.
I put it to you that your Ireland for the Irish rant with added sensationalist baseless predictions is quaint and meaningless.

silverharp

liberty 2007 wrote: »

So, is it ok that we may suffer the same fate as the American indians?

your point is illogical, you cant compare western migration to US to inward migration to Ireland. to imply we are at risk of being wiped out is insane.

please lay out some reasonable concerns that can be discussed.

liberty 2007

silverharp wrote: »

your point is illogical, you cant compare western migration to US to inward migration to Ireland. to imply we are at risk of being wiped out is insane.

please lay out some reasonable concerns that can be discussed.

I never claimed that we would be wiped out, I simply stated the facts regarding the migtation to north Amarica as it was given a an example of no conflect migration. The one ingerident thats missing from the modern European sitution is time. Now can anyone give me an example from history...??

So you want us to prove your theory with an unproven for you?
misnomers aren't debate liberty 2007,they're an evasion tactic used by people devoid of any beef for their quaint theories.
In this case your quaint theory appears to be that some kind of imminent reversal of societal modernity is nigh.

I'd relax the kacks if thats worrying you.

djpbarry

liberty 2007 wrote: »

So, is it ok that we may suffer the same fate as the American indians?

You know, I think boards.ie show conduct a poll of the most ridiculous comments made by its users, because I reckon this one would feature near the top .

Talliesin

JohnWK wrote: »

If [X] is to continue into [Y] at its current unsustainable rate [Z].

Replaced the terms related to the issue, because they aren't actually relevant to the problem with this statement.

Of course if X continues into Y at its current unsustainable rate then bad things will happen.

The storage heater next to me is currently getting hotter. If this continues at its current unsustainable rate, then it will lead all of Dublin burning. Later all of Europe will burn and the smoke will kill people elsewhere. Oceans will boil and all life will end.

Luckily it's heating at an unsustainable rate; therefore even if I were never to turn it off it won't wipe out all humanity.

That's inherent in it's being unsustainable. Anyone who isn't hard of thinking can figure that out pretty immediately.

dRNk SAnTA

Wicknight wrote: »

So again, the biggest problem, in my view, with any debate on this topic is that the anti-immigration crowd always go to utterly ridiculous extremes in an attempt to scaremonger people into thinking immigration is going to cause the world to end. People just don't take that seriously anymore. We have had high levels of immigration into this country for the last 15 years, and the world hasn't ended. The idea that all these huge supposed problems is just around the corner just doesn't wash anymore.

If there was an actual serious problem with immigration no doubt you guys would be pointing that out. The very fact that you have to invent silly arguments , such as saying we will be a minority in the next few years, just leads to the conclusion that you guys don't actually know what the real problems immigration creates. So again no one takes you seriously.

I'm pro-immigration, but it would be very foolish of me to assume I know every problem that immigration can bring. After all part of being pro-immigration is making life for immigrants easier, which means addressing these problems.

I'm sure there are actual problems that movement of large groups of people brings. But its clear you guys aren't the ones to discuss that with, since you don't know what they are. I would love, just once, to have a proper discussion with someone on this forum who isn't a frothing at the mouth anti-immigration supporter who is droning on about how immigration will cause the end of Ireland as we know it, because such rhetoric is just nonsense.

This is a great post. The problem with most anti-immigration people is that they blame the problems that arise from immigration on the immigrants themselves. Its not a polish person's fault if we can't plan our country properly. I think everyone would like to see immigration policy which would make it as easy as possibly for our New-Irish to settle in.

gandalf

There are several problems that a large influx of immigrants has highlighted with Ireland.

Firstly we suck at infrastructure and planning. Alot of the problems being levelled at immigrants are actually because we seem to practice reactive planning from the government and local government level. When new estates go up schools should be built in parallel, leisure facilities should be organised, roads and public transport should be co-ordinated.

Blaming immigrants is lazy and is not addressing the problem on the way our tax monies are administered and how our services are delivered. If it wasn't for the famine then Ireland would be supporting a population of approx 40 million. At the moment we are only at approx 11% of that figure.

I have no issues with people coming here to work; if they do then they are paying taxes back into the economy. Some will stay here for a few years to make enough money to go back home and better their lives there. Others will stay and make a life of their own here in Ireland and I welcome those. There will be bad apples in the bunch but tbh they are few and far between (and there are plenty of bad apples in the native Irish population as well).

With regard to the separate issue of asylum seekers the system should be speeded up to process those applications as quickly as possible, allow those with legitimate claims to start their new lives and those who are "chancing their arm" to be sent on their way reducing the cost to the Irish taxpayer and stress on the applicant.

BTW I love this whole we will be in the minority bull and our Irishness will be diluted. We are a mongrel race, we are mixes of several different races from the Celts to the Normans to the British. Some of our native singing styles from the West coast are said to have Arabic influence. Its part of being Irish that we change, no race stands still it takes influences from the people that join it and come in contact with it. You should be more afraid of the influence of crap American Television shows than the Eastern Europeans and their superior work ethic.

djpbarry

Excellent post there gandalf. I'm particularly fond of:

gandalf wrote:

You should be more afraid of the influence of crap American Television shows than the Eastern Europeans and their superior work ethic.

silverharp

gandalf wrote: »

BTW I love this whole we will be in the minority bull and our Irishness will be diluted. We are a mongrel race, we are mixes of several different races from the Celts to the Normans to the British.

Repatriate anyone with Mc in their surname to Scotland, Anyone with Fitz to France and for good measure kick out everyone else who didn't have a relative in the GPO in 1916, then the thousand or so people left who can qualify as being real Irish can repopulate the country again.

liberty 2007

billy the squid wrote: »

We didn't consult the indians about invading the american continent either.

My responce regarding the fate of the native Americans was in responce to your flippent attitute towards them.

So far, I have'nt heard an example of where migration or multiculturlism works successfully. Perhaps The US is the best example. Despite the fact the natives were wiped out un the process, the people that are there now have a common bond, they are all immigrents. as long as the power is in the hands of predominantly white europeans It should remain stable.
But **** happins, things change, that's the nature of the world we live in.
Yogoslavia, a functioning multi etnic country for half a century. Then two things happened, Tito died and the USSR collapsed. The believe was that there would be a peaceful move to democracy. There was shock and horror accross Europe as no one could believe that such a thing could happen in modern Europe. So instead of looking at the real cause of the problem, the blame was pointed at one particular group even though all sides were equally as bad, the serbs had the most weapons.
I'l give more examples later as I dont have much time for this.

djpbarry

liberty 2007 wrote: »

Yogoslavia, a functioning multi etnic country for half a century. Then two things happened, Tito died and the USSR collapsed.

No, not really. Yugoslavia was created after WWI with the help of the allies (particularly the British) without the consultation of the inhabitants of the region. It was quite literally "thrown together" following the collapse of the Austro-Hungarian Empire in an attempt by Alexander Karađorđević to make territorial gains. This is totally irrelevant in the context of immigration in Ireland.

silverharp

liberty 2007 wrote: »

But **** happins, things change, that's the nature of the world we live in.
Yogoslavia, a functioning multi etnic country for half a century. Then two things happened, Tito died and the USSR collapsed. The believe was that there would be a peaceful move to democracy.

With respect you are using strawman arguments to back up point of view. I don’t have any numbers but I would guess that the vast majority of long term legal immigration to this country is white, coming from Christian (as much as that matters these days) based societies. I can’t in my wildest dreams imagine a scenario where this type of immigration would have a seriously detrimental affect on our society or economy. BTW I would say Switzerland is a fairly successful multicultural society however not that relevent to the Irish situation. I don't actually think Ireland has to become a multicultural country in any event, most immigrants will have assimilated within a genration and your perceived problem will have vanished.

purple'n'gold

Any people of white European decent that immigrate here (and of course stay here) wil be totally assimilated within a generation. That’s the way it has been throughout Europe for many hundreds of years. We all more or less look alike, language and local customs are usually the only difference. Religion now a days really doesn’t matter.

Zombrex

Maclommis wrote: »

And does that not tell you something?

It tells me that people seem perfectly free to talk about the issues around immigration and integration.

Maclommis wrote: »

Maybe people are talking about it because they think it's an important issue that will have a major impact on the future of this country.

Of that I have no doubt.

Maclommis wrote: »

Again, does that not tell you something.

Again it tells me that people seem perfectly happy and free to start a discussion on this issue.

Maclommis wrote: »

Is it possible that immigration might be a huge domestic issue that Irish people are concerned about?

Quite possible.

Maclommis wrote: »

It could be that it's a ridiculous argument or it could be that people like yourself just aren't able to respond to the argument with anything other than the same tired old platitudes.

No, its a ridiculous argument.

You can see that in the paradox of the argument itself.

The argument starts that our infrastructure cannot cope with the number of immigrants here at the moment. There are not enough houses, jobs, facilities, schools, etc etc for the current population.

Yet the next bit of the argument is about how 5 million more people are soon going to arrive if the rates continue and native Irish people will find themselves a minority in Ireland.

Can you see the problem with that?

What the hell are these 5 million people going to be doing if we don't have the jobs, schools, houses, facilities, for the current population, let alone double the current population?

The simple fact of the matter is that immigrants don't emigrate to countries that have little to offer them. If there are no jobs, no schools, no houses for immigrants they won't come here. That is why we didn't have thousands of people coming to live and work in Ireland in the mid-80s.

So the argument can't have it both ways, without just looking really stupid.

If we seriously should be worrying about 5 million immigrants coming to Ireland in the next 10 or 20 years, then why the hell should we be worrying about the strain on the infrastructure now, because if we can support 5 million immigrants we can sure as hell support 400,000 or 500,000 thousand.

If we are supposed to be worrying about the strain of 400,000 immigrants are putting on the infrastructure now, then why the hell should we be worrying about 5 million immigrants in the near future since we aren't supposed to be able to provide for the ones we have at the moment.

So, as I said, when people come out with this nonsense it is hard to take anything they say seriously.

Immigration causes problems when ever it happens. Theres are real problems. But I've yet to hear anyone in the anti-immigration crowd actually discuss these problems seriously on this website.

Instead we will get the nonsense above, ridiculous arguments about how pretty soon native Irish will be an minority, and quick the immigrants here now are destroying our infrastructure.

Maclommis wrote: »

I remember seeing another thread on another site where someone with the same user name as yourself was asked to answer some very simple and very reasonable questions on their views but that person seemed to run off without answering half of them. Maybe I'm wrong but it just seemed to me that you weren't able to answer them.

I wasn't able to answer them because my posts were constantly being deleted by the mods of that website and I was being banned.

Its kinda hard to reply when your replies are deleted.

So after a while I simple gave up and left.

Maclommis wrote: »

And if immigration is a ridiculous issue why aren't you ignoring it in this thread?

I have never claimed that immigration is a ridiculous issue.

Maclommis wrote: »

Real issues like crime and education and the health service and housing and the infastructure. Of course none of those things are any way related to or in any way impacted by immigration.

Well I would disagree with that assessment, I think all those areas, crime, educateion, health service and housing, are impacted by immigration. So I'm not quite sure where you are getting that from.

Maclommis wrote: »

Too many for a island of only 6 million people.

Perhaps you didn't understand the question. Too many to do what?

Saying "too many for an island of only 6 million people" is pointless, because I still don't know what you want to do and how this is stopped by having a certain level of immigrants.

Maclommis wrote: »

A million foreigners have settled in Britain over the last ten years. In Ireland we've had more than 400,000 people settle here. The population of Britain is around 60 million people. I'll let you do the maths.

No, please you do it, because again I have no idea what you want to do.

Maclommis wrote: »

You have got to be taking the urine. Ireland has never been anything like a multicultural country.

Yes, because there were no Celts here, Vikings here, no Normans, no British etc etc. Everyone is an original Hibernian. :rolleyes:

Maclommis wrote: »

It's true that one part of Ireland is more ethnically diverse than the rest but I'm not sure if many people would call it a successful example of multiculturalism.

Well you see that is the problem.

You, being strict anti-immigration (if you are who I think you are), define what is "successful multiculturalism" and you can simply define anything you don't like as being unsuccessful multiculturalism. So by definition nothing has ever been successful, because you don't want anything to be an example of successful multiculturalism.

So the discussion is rather pointless.

CerebralCortex

Very interesting thread, the only reason I would oppose immigration is because I don't think imho our government as far as social policy goes is up to scratch and as a result both immigrants and the Irish already here would suffer. I do think immigration is the way forward for Ireland.
There was an article yesterday in the Sunday business post by David McWilliams which matches up with my beliefs on the matter.
link

Zombrex

liberty 2007 wrote: »

So far, I have'nt heard an example of where migration or multiculturlism works successfully.

Well is there any point in answering?

The key word in your request is "successful" Who defines what is successful?

This request, or requests like yours, come up hundreds of times before on these threads and when ever example is given the person looking for the example simply points out a problem that such multiculturalism caused and uses that as an example why the multiculturalism was actually unsuccessful

So if you define successful multiculturalism as multicultural that has never caused problems you aren't going to get any examples.

But then I would challenge you to find anything in life that involves change that doesn't also raise problems.

So define what is successful multiculturalism and I will attempt to answer the question.

Hobbes

I didn't read any of the thread but wanted to say I am for Immigration Control on Youtube. Nearly every second video on youtube is some hard to understand foriegn stuff like this. I think they should have to learn to speak our language before they can go posting videos on youtube. Integrate not disentigrate!

I'd go to Dailymotion.com instead but its full of French people. *phhh*

Hobbes

Just after reading the OP. Funny thing about this doom and gloom prediction for the future is that people keep repeating it, even when it doesn't happen it gets moved further out.

Now that boards.ie search is back I can see similar posts from as back as 2002/2003. What is even funnier is that the reasons immigration is getting blamed for, were the same excuses as to why we shouldn't have immigration to begin with. eg. not enough schools, hospital beds.

It is a great way to prove yourself right though, just keep saying the future (not now) then when it eventually happens you can blame the immigrants, rather then the real underlying factors.

Gobán Saor

There are two main types of inward migration to Ireland - our fellow EU citizens exercising their right to move here and then the Asylum seeker phenomenon.

As regards the first, we had that debate in 1973 when we opted to join the (then) EEC, now the European Union. Free movement of people, goods, capital, all that sort of thing. Mind you, I imagine, if we thought about it at all, that we thought the free movement of people thing would be outward directed rather than inward directed. But no matter, we had the debate, voted (by a large majority) in the referendum and it is pretty foolish to now assert that we were never consulted. And by and large, inward EU migration has been a positive experience, and has contributed to the overall well being of Ireland, and, I would hope, the immigrants themselves. We are getting an influx of young, hardworking, taxpaying migrants (there's a house full of them next door to me) and I don't see the problem with that.

As for the second (and numerically smaller) category, it seems blindingly clear to me that the vast majority of asylum seekers are making blatantly bogus and unfounded claims and are grossly abusing a system that was put in place after the horrors of WW2 to protect refugees from political persecution and genocide. Not scam artists who claim they will be decapitated in a tribal ceremony back home if they are not allowed settle here forthwith.:rolleyes: Oh and bring their spouses, siblings, children, aunts and grannies too.:rolleyes: Unfortunately a very visible asylum seeker industry and lobby has sprung up and the legal arm of this is doing quite well, thank you, with ORAC hearings, appeals to the RAT, applications for leave to remain on humanitarian grounds and the inevitable judicial review after all else fails. I have argued before on previous threads that we can and should hugely tighten up this system but this DOES raise the hackles of the ultra PC brigade like not much else.

While I am firmly convinced that legal migration is a good idea, I think that the gross and blatant abuses by bogus asylum seekers (and their cheerleaders) is responsible for much if not all of the anti-immigration sentiment that undoubtedly exists.