Mossberg m500 on rsov

Fallschirmjager

just saw this as a coming soon on rsov




8mm but looks like its a marushin copy to me..its gas

kdouglas

nice, just sent an email to rsov asking a few questions, mainly what power does it fire at...

Fallschirmjager

kdouglas wrote:

nice, just sent an email to rsov asking a few questions, mainly what power does it fire at...

good point....oops,

dude if you have to hobble this thread until you get the details, fire ahead and sorry for the lack of foresight...

[--SC(+)PE--]

ya ive been scouring the net trying to figure out what 210fps with a 0.27 8mm bb equats to in terms of energy but alas have turned up with a blank. Not saying taht it is actually 210fps, tahts just what the original is apparantly.

kdouglas

[--SC(+)PE--] wrote:

ya ive been scouring the net trying to figure out what 210fps with a 0.27 8mm bb equats to in terms of energy but alas have turned up with a blank. Not saying taht it is actually 210fps, tahts just what the original is apparantly.

well, from http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055003480

KE = 1/2 * m * v^2

so..
1/2 * 0.000027 * 210^2 = 0.59J??

[--SC(+)PE--]

Ya i tought that, but i kind off remember reading something that the chart on arnies wouldnt apply to 8mm bb's, though looking at the link ya just posted it does say 250fps with a 0.34 is 0.99 joules, so it may well be legit

kdouglas

as far as i know, the size of the projectile makes no difference, it's the weight that matters

[--SC(+)PE--]

cool, looking forward to hearing more info about this piece so

Wossack

bit nasty in the silver, I'd hold out for a gunmetal grey one

Fallschirmjager

Wossack wrote:

bit nasty in the silver, I'd hold out for a gunmetal grey one

agreed its a bit too saddam husseinish for my liking, altho you could spray it or wait as you said for the gunmetal one..

[--SC(+)PE--]

indeed, Black krylon is a must. I wonder if their will be a pistolgrip version.

padmundo

Fallschirmjager wrote:

agreed its a bit too saddam husseinish for my liking, altho you could spray it or wait as you said for the gunmetal one..

Exactly what I was thinking... that silver is mank. I'd hope they'll offer it in a more subdued colour.

[--SC(+)PE--]

Any word from Rsov Kd?

Mark_Sc

kdouglas wrote:

as far as i know, the size of the projectile makes no difference, it's the weight that matters

That's right

[--SC(+)PE--]

Excellent ,My Benelli might find itself with some full metal competition so

HarryHirsch

If this Gun is a 100% Copy of the Marushin, it will have three pipes (under the barrel) for 14 8mm BBs (all together 42) and will shoot 3 BBs at once. If you use Abbey Predator Gun Gas 134a, you'll be under 1 Joule, but with Red Gas this Gun will have a Maximum of 3 joule (I don't want to be hit in CQB with 3 Joule, that will hurt :eek: ).

Wossack

think this has been mentioned before, but since its firing 3 at once, do you do some addition here for the muzzle energy?

[--SC(+)PE--]

From what ive read, red/green gas would destroy the gun in its stock form anyway.

kdouglas

HarryHirsch wrote:

If this Gun is a 100% Copy of the Marushin, it will have three pipes (under the barrel) for 14 8mm BBs (all together 42) and will shoot 3 BBs at once. If you use Abbey Predator Gun Gas 134a, you'll be under 1 Joule, but with Red Gas this Gun will have a Maximum of 3 joule (I don't want to be hit in CQB with 3 Joule, that will hurt :eek: ).

what the hell? 3 Joule on red gas? I'm assuming that's firing just one bb at a time?

kdouglas

[--SC(+)PE--] wrote:

Any word from Rsov Kd?

nothing yet

ambro25

disclaimer: this is not a discussion about circumventing Statutes, on the contrary this point is raised to ensure compliance by all contemplating a multi-barelled AEG/shotty.

Wossack wrote:

think this has been mentioned before, but since its firing 3 at once, do you do some addition here for the muzzle energy?

Funnily enough, what with how open to interpretation Statutes are, I think you may be onto something here.

I believe Statutes are phrased with a barrel and a projectile (i.e. one barrel, one BB).

EDIT - here we are:

an air gun (including an air rifle and air pistol) with a muzzle energy greater than one joule or any other weapon incorporating a barrel from which any projectile can be discharged with such a muzzle energy

Note use of singular here for both barrel and projectile.

So what of a shotty incorporating several barrels from which a projectile can be discharged at up to 1J?

E.g. think of paintball: same FPS (ish) but larger size/mass, which one could think of as a tight group of individual BBs, = much larger J figure.

Lads, do we have another 'laser' connundrum here

kdouglas

its a bit of a pickle alright, i guess they never considered guns with more than one barrel, but if you treat it similarly to a real shotgun and ignore the fact that it has three barrels i.e. multiple projectiles firing at the same time, then how should the power be measured?

you could use one of those large chrono's (the ones that have the big triangular things on top to fire through) and you'd be able to measure the velocity of the three bb's at the same time

Edit: this kind of chrono is what i mean

Genghiz Cohen

The shotty has 3 barrels, each firing a bb at under 1J, I can't see any problem.

kdouglas

That's how it should be treated alright, but the problem is that if you load a single bb and fire it, will it fire at more than 1J?

[--SC(+)PE--]

Was sure it only has one barrel? Hence the larger spread over a TM and Hence my interest .

padmundo

kdouglas wrote:

That's how it should be treated alright, but the problem is that if you load a single bb and fire it, will it fire at more than 1J?

I'd imagine not as some of the gas would just be expelled down the empty barrel... it might even fire with less power with out the resistance of the bbs to build the pressure.

[--SC(+)PE--]

I'd imagine not as some of the gas would just be expelled down the empty barrel... it might even fire with less power with out the resistance of the bbs to build the pressure.

Good point actually,
For any one interested its up for sale with a price now on Rsov e67 +delivery. Got a reply from Keith but he didnt realy answer my questions , Just said its powerful and makes a mess out of a can .

kdouglas

i assume it fires multiple bb's at a time?

is it magazine fed or shell fed does anyone know?

HarryHirsch

Read this:

German review of the Marushin M500ssb (translated by Google)

ambro25

#1 - I thought only TM's have 3 barrels?

#2 - Assuming there's only 1 barrel, how can a single barrel expel 3 BBs, unless they are 'sequentially' loaded (i.e. one behind the other: ooo), as is currently done?

Surely the single barrel is not that large a diameter over 8mm (for 8mm BBs), otherwise all the 3 BBs would do is ricochet along against the barrel wall and just 'splutter' out the end, with most of the gas propulsive charge expended.

Whereby, if BBs are sequentially loaded (one behind the other), then de facto one BB will come out with higher individual J than 3.

EDIT#1: just glanced that review, HarryHirsch, thx for that - so, looks like an 8mm single barrel. Therefore, assume BBs loaded one behind the other, whereby assume a single BB can be shot from single barrel = go back a few posts above and read that Act again.

Further question for ye guys: how much more of a weight difference does 8 mm makes over 6 mm? 8mm is 25% bigger than 6mm, so for J calculation purposes, does that mean 8mm @ 0,20gr = 6mm @ 0,25gr?

EDIT#2: having glanced the chart posted by o1s1n in the 1J/Legality sticky (check it out), looks like lightest 8mm is 0,34 gr
whereby that @ 250 FPS max = 1J

Not looking good for ye lads, I must say
Glad I stuck with a spring shotty

Boston

Your assessment is correct ambro. A shorty desiged to fire multiple bbs down a single barrel, if loaded with a single bb will fire it with a greater kenetic energy. Now the energy imparted is determined mainly by the spring, so if they put in a one joule stpring, what you'll get is a load of weaker bbs being fired. A lad had one of those shorties at predator, It was only for the fact I could see the bbs that I knew I was getting hit by them.

kdouglas

the thing is though, while it might be possible to only load 1 bb and fire that, that's not how the gun is designed, from that review, it looks like you load 42 bbs and then on every pump it will fire 3 together, so from a fully loaded magazine, it fires 3 at a time, if you were to load just a single bb, would it even load the bb properly

i.e. a mid cap magazine, there is always a couple of bbs left in the end that dont get loaded, will the same thing happen here, thus rendering it impossible to fire any less than 3 bbs at a time?

Boston

Depends on the internals really.

Wossack

Under the way its written, and after reading over it a fair few times, thinkin over it etc I reckon you're in the clear as long as no single individual projectile has more then 1 joule of energy - multiple barrels or not (including those m203 shells)

kdouglas

well the m203 shells are a whole different issue again, do they even have a barrel? does the launcher constitute a barrel?

anyway, this is about the shotty for now, so we'll leave the m203's to another day

HarryHirsch

This should be a little bit better. The problem is, that this review does not reveal the weight of the BBs.

Review on Arnies


Edit: It looks like the speed is just guessed (poor man chrony)

ambro25

kdouglas wrote:

that's not how the gun is designed, from that review, it looks like you load 42 bbs and then on every pump it will fire 3 together, so from a fully loaded magazine, it fires 3 at a time

I understand that well - but the crucial bit, with reference to the Act, is that:

kdouglas wrote:

the thing is though, while it might be possible to only load 1 bb and fire that

Assuming that the Mossberg is rated at 3BBs at 1J each, that hypothetical single BB will leave the Mossberg barrel at well over 1J.

Entirely different from an AEG: single BB will leave the barrel at 1J max. Multiple BBs (e.g. misbehavin' AEG mag) will leave the barrel at well under 1J.

So, to my mind:

_ the point of reference, with reference to the Act, is "1 BB out of 1 barrel at 1J max" (irerespective of whether designed to shoot 1 at a time or not).
_ if the shotty is designed to shoot more than 1 BB out of 1 barrel at 1J max each, then there's a problem under the Act.

EDIT: once again, HarryHirsch to the rescue thx Glanced the Arnies' review, fears confirmed - and I quote:

but firing it one BB at a time seems to give about 380-400 fps while three BBs give about 280-300 or so fps

The weight of 8mm seems to start at 0,34gr:


Assuming RSOV's M500 is an exact replica, then it also can shoot a single 8mm, at 0,34gr, at 380-400 FPS = see table above, big problem.

I hate playing the killjoy here, but better safe than sorry.

Boston

ambro25 wrote:

I hate playing the killjoy here, but better safe than sorry.

Hmm, not only would it be illegal it would be fairly dangerous.

Hivemind187

ooooh bugger this is a sticky one.

Loaded the way it is intended to be fired the device is within the safety limits.

Improperly loaded or misfiring and we have a problem.

Does that mean that the TM SPAS12 which fires a 3,3,3,1 pattern is causing the final BB to leave the barrel with an energy of more than 1 joule? This is important because there are a number of lads who have the TM SPAS12 and it would be rather upsetting news for them should they find that their kit is hot whe nthey thought, quite reasonably, that it was spot on.

ambro25

Hivemind187 wrote:

ooooh bugger this is a sticky one.

Yup, rather so I'm afraid. At least for the Mossberg in question.

And I don't think "improperly loaded" matters one bit here. Highlighting the now-relevant portion of the Act:

an air gun (including an air rifle and air pistol) with a muzzle energy greater than one joule or any other weapon incorporating a barrel from which any projectile can be discharged with such a muzzle energy

From the review on Arnies, it appears clear that the Marushin M500 can fire BB-by-BB and therefore indeed "has a muzzle energy greater than one joule".

The position is to be contrasted with the musings way-back-when of our good friend what-his-face-who-was-editing-the-Wiki-and-making-people-laugh-in-Feedback, because he was interpreting this "can do >1J" clause with reference to the possibility of upgrading stock AEGs beyond 1J. This is not the case here, because to my mind the Mossberg does that without modification, whereby the "can do >1J" clause applies here.

My €0,02? Steer clear, lads.

Hivemind187 wrote:

Does that mean that the TM SPAS12 which fires a 3,3,3,1 pattern is causing the final BB to leave the barrel with an energy of more than 1 joule?

I don't think so.

3 barrels are used in TM shotties, and I believe each barrel is < 1J. The spring/piston (or springs/pistons?) distribute the total propulsive energy equally across the barrels: 1 spring/piston per barrel <1J, or a single spring/piston providing equal propulsive power to each barrel (therefore again <1J). The 2 'unused' barrels are just dry-shot, with compressed air but no BB in there... I think (and am open to correction as I don't know about the TM internals for sure).

Assuming I'm correct about the TM internals, even if you could somehow fire the SPAs (or one of the Benelli variations, same multibarrel design) BB-by-BB, each BB would still leave one of the 3 barrels at < 1J. So, with reference to my interpretation of the Act (1 barrel/1BB/1J) still legit.

I should add that any of my ramblings above should absolutely not be contrued as legal advice of any sort, but mere musings of my legal mind

Fallschirmjager

well rsov have them on pre-release for 46.99 now

Spetzcong

Hivemind187 wrote:

ooooh bugger this is a sticky one.

Loaded the way it is intended to be fired the device is within the safety limits.

Improperly loaded or misfiring and we have a problem.

Does that mean that the TM SPAS12 which fires a 3,3,3,1 pattern is causing the final BB to leave the barrel with an energy of more than 1 joule? This is important because there are a number of lads who have the TM SPAS12 and it would be rather upsetting news for them should they find that their kit is hot whe nthey thought, quite reasonably, that it was spot on.

Does the TM SPAS shoot 3, 3, 3, 1 ? I've never noticed that on mine, I get 10 shots of three each time, or at least I think I do. Each magazine/shell holds 30 bbs and you get 10 shots. To be honest even if it does the 3,3,3,1 thing you say I doubt it'd be hot, each barrel is loaded with one bb individually, so even if it was only one barrel loaded I think the energy exerted on the bb would be the same.

Fallschirmjager

i have a m3 shotty from tm, i can assure you it isnt over 1j...its about 280fps at best....as its spring loaded and abs, you would have difficulty pumping it on any bigger..

the compression on a one shot is dissapated down the empty barrels...so it doesnt build up to a huge triple blast on one barrel.

[--SC(+)PE--]

Indeed, one can Chrono it firing a single bb if you wish, the fps wont change.Tm shotties are well within the legal limit whatever way their used. Im still curious about this mossberg though, perhaps we'll all have to wait till more info is released

Fallschirmjager

[--SC(+)PE--] wrote:

Indeed, one can Chrono it firing a single bb if you wish, the fps wont change.Tm shotties are well within the legal limit whatever way their used. Im still curious about this mossberg though, perhaps we'll all have to wait till more info is released

yep i think this is a one to wait and see on...and anyway it silver, not exactly the best thing to hide in the bushes with

[--SC(+)PE--]

The black paint mod would be compulsory alright , Im after getting another reply from RSOV but he wont tell me exactly what power it fires at :rolleyes: he did say taht they might "remove the bucking to significantly lower the power" didnt think their could be a bucking in such a device maybe the bb's start off in three seperate barrels and then move into the larger one.
Damn im realy getting interested in this beast.

[--SC(+)PE--]

Good god i want this gun , Ive found meself spending ages scouring the net for info about the marushin version and god its tasty