Sining in heaven

enda1

Completely out of curiosity but...

Is it possible to sin in heaven? Surely yes else whats the point of it if you don't have free will.

Or is the answer the whole theological/philosophical connundrum of god seeing all (time and space) concurrently so knows what will/has/is hapening so judges accordingly and you wont sin in heaven else you wouldn't be there kind of thing??

Bit of a puzzler for me.

PDN

I believe that when we get to heaven we will be made holy and that we will no longer possess a sinful nature. Therefore we will no longer have any desire to sin.

I don't see that there is any conflict between that and having free will. For example, I have free will today whether to eat prunes or not, but I will never use my free will to eat prunes because I hate the things. The free will is there, but the desire is not.

So in heaven we may have the free will to commit sin if we so desired, but that desire will no longer exist.

enda1

PDN wrote:

I believe that when we get to heaven we will be made holy and that we will no longer possess a sinful nature. Therefore we will no longer have any desire to sin.

I don't see that there is any conflict between that and having free will. For example, I have free will today whether to eat prunes or not, but I will never use my free will to eat prunes because I hate the things. The free will is there, but the desire is not.

So in heaven we may have the free will to commit sin if we so desired, but that desire will no longer exist.

So if you're made holy does this not imply that an element of your personality has been changed and therefore removing your free will? Did lucifer who was once 'holy' not sin?

Zombrex

PDN wrote:

So in heaven we may have the free will to commit sin if we so desired, but that desire will no longer exist.

Why does it exist now?

PDN

enda1 wrote:

So if you're made holy does this not imply that an element of your personality has been changed and therefore removing your free will? Did lucifer who was once 'holy' not sin?

If you freely consent, and indeed ask God, to remove your inclination to sin then that would in no way be a removal of free will. Indeed it is simply God (at last) answering the Christian's daily prayer of "Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil."

Many Christians do indeed believe that Satan was once a sinless being, but that he sinned and rebelled against God. However, that does not mean that Satan's sinless state, or indeed that of Adam and Eve prior to the Fall, is identical to that of the redeemed in heaven.

I think the answer to this lies in an insight of CS Lewis. (I'm away from my office and so can't look this up, so this might be a bit hazy). In one of his books Lewis suggests that Adam and Eve, if they successfully resisted the temptation in the Garden, would not have had to keep resisting that temptation forever. So, in order to freely choose to love God, it was necessary to face the option of choosing to reject God. But if they had overcome that temptation then their choice would have been made, it would not need to be repeated. In that case they could have lived in fellowship with God without facing further temptations.

So, it would seem to me, the original holiness of Adam and Eve, or indeed of Satan, was that which had not yet been tried. They were created holy, but had not yet made the choice to be holy. The redeemed in heaven, however, are those who have already made their choice.

Zombrex

You seem to be saying that in heaven the choice to not love God is removed?

Is that not a removal of free will? You seem to be saying that it isn't, because at some point in the past you consented to this part of free will being removed. I'm not sure that logic holds though.

PDN

Wicknight wrote:

You seem to be saying that in heaven the choice to not love God is removed?

Is that not a removal of free will?

No. Not if it is my own decision for that to be removed.

For example, if I were to decide that posting on boards.ie is becoming a distraction from my work then I might install software on my computer that blocks access to this site.

Now, if someone else were to impose that restriction on me, then that would be a restriction of my own free will. However, if I willingly choose to install the software myself then my free will is not being removed.

PDN

Let's use another illustration to help clarify this.

I was born a virgin (as is everyone). For the first few years of my life I had no choice in the matter - being underage and physically incapable of having intercourse with a woman.

Eventually I reached a stage where I was free to make a choice as to whether I remained a virgin or not. Once I made that choice (with a consenting partner, I hasten to add) then I was no longer a virgin. And from that moment onward I have never had the freedom to be a virgin again. This is not a restriction of free will - just the inevitable consequences of my decision.

Adam and Eve were holy. They had no choice in the matter. They were created that way. But one day they had a choice and they chose to be sinners. From that day onward they could not be holy again. This was not a removal of free will, but rather the inevitable consequence of their freely made decision.

All subsequent people, according to the Christian doctrine of original sin, are born sinners. We had no choice in the matter. We were born that way. But one day we were presented with a choice. For those of us who choose to be saved, then one day we will be in heaven. At that time we will no longer be able to sin. That is not a removal of free will, but the inevitable consequence of our decision.

You may not agree with much of what I say, but I believe that it is logically consistent and coherent. It is also biblical in that the New Testament clearly portrays Christ's work of redemption as reversing the entrance of sin through Adam.

kelly1

enda1 wrote:

Completely out of curiosity but...

Is it possible to sin in heaven? Surely yes else whats the point of it if you don't have free will.

Or is the answer the whole theological/philosophical connundrum of god seeing all (time and space) concurrently so knows what will/has/is hapening so judges accordingly and you wont sin in heaven else you wouldn't be there kind of thing??

Bit of a puzzler for me.

Hello Enda, when/if we do get to Heaven, we will become united with God having being purified of all stain of sin through Purgatory if necessary. We will become holy like God and be able to see God in all His glory. What we have believed by faith will become real for us. In this state, sin would be absolutely abhorrent to us so it would never cross our minds. At the moment of death, our will becomes fixed either to accept and love God or reject and hate Him. On earth we're blindfolded so to speak because we can't see God as he really is. We are required to have faith.

There is a theory that before the fall of Lucifer, God didn't reveal His full glory and so he thought he could challenge God. We on the other hand will see God in all His glory and will share in the internal life of God. Sin would be unthinkable.

At least that's what I believe!

God bless,
Noel.

Zombrex

PDN wrote:

but I believe that it is logically consistent and coherent

Well I disagree, but I don't want to hijack the thread so perhaps it is a discussion for another time

jonny72

I didn't think anyone in this day and age actually took 'going to heaven' literally..

'Sinning in heaven'?? that should be the least of your worries!

I've never really thought about it, but wouldn't there be millions of babies in heaven? mutilated ones too? or do they retain their perfect form? won't there be millions upon millions of old debilitated old people barely able to move? or will they magically get returned to a younger healthier age? will you be there for eternity? if so, then you could read every book ever written a billion times over and it would be nothing.. etc etc etc etc

Its ridiculous, you can maybe take it metaphorically at perhaps being at some higher state of consciousness that we could not possibly fathom..

Its called deep thinking, but if its easier for you to think that you will be walking around on fluffy clouds, perhaps sinning, then go ahead..

You know what, if you took 100 kids with no clue of religion, dumped then on a remote island somewhere and came back in a few hundred years, and if they had survived, there would be a 100% chance they would have their own religion, complete with afterlife, etc.

I would like to be blissfully ignorant and not analyse everything so deeply, it would be so much nicer to think I am going to see my grandmother in heaven and give her a big hug rather than disappearing into nothingness getting eaten by worms. Reality is morbid, religion offers us a ticket out of that. Sinning in heaven has no answer because no one has any answers about religion only speculation and dreams and wishful thinking..