Sold car. Problem. Buyer wants me to pay for it

iknorr

Hey all,
I recently sold a car privetly. The car passed the nct the day before i sold it. The person i sold it to has now said that the timing belt snapped. This was tested as part of the NCT and passed. The person i sold it to is now looking for me to pay for the problem, even though when i sold the car there was no problem with it and i have an NCT cert to prove this.
Legally im not sure where i stand. I didnt offer any warrenty with the car, as it was a private sale. To my knowledge the car was in perfect working condition, as confirmed by the nct.
Do i have to pay for it?
what do ye think?

anyone know anything about this?

testicle

Caveat Empor. His problem.

The NCT don't test timing belts.

PauloMN

iknorr wrote:

Hey all,
I recently sold a car privetly. The car passed the nct the day before i sold it. The person i sold it to has now said that the timing belt snapped. This was tested as part of the NCT and passed. The person i sold it to is now looking for me to pay for the problem, even though when i sold the car there was no problem with it and i have an NCT cert to prove this.
Legally im not sure where i stand. I didnt offer any warrenty with the car, as it was a private sale. To my knowledge the car was in perfect working condition, as confirmed by the nct.
Do i have to pay for it?
what do ye think?

anyone know anything about this?

It's the buyers problem. On a private sale, the buyer has no comeback. Don't shell out a penny.

Also, the NCT doesn't "test" the timing belt.

gyppo

You sold the car as seen, and in good faith.

As others said, timing belts are not tested by the NCT. If I bought a car with no proven service history, I would assume the timing belt would require renewal, and this would be my first job on the car.

As a matter of interest OP, when did you sell the car, and how long after did the buyer come back?

iknorr

yeah on page 12 of this http://www.ncts.ie/nctmanual.pdf it says its checked. Probably just a visual but id assume they would check if it jumped a cog or two?

iknorr

gyppo wrote:

You sold the car as seen, and in good faith.

As others said, timing belts are not tested by the NCT. If I bought a car with no proven service history, I would assume the timing belt would require renewal, and this would be my first job on the car.

As a matter of interest OP, when did you sell the car, and how long after did the buyer come back?

it was about ten days /2 weeks i think

C_Breeze

legally he has no comeback.


However, If i was in your position i would feel somewhat ethically obliged to maybe pay for some costs.


did he not ask you when/if the tb had been changed??

Did you not know this needs to be done every 50-60k ???

or did it snap premeaturely? .



I think its a questions of morals rather than legality

iknorr

C_Breeze wrote:

legally he has no comeback.


However, If i was in your position i would feel somewhat ethically obliged to maybe pay for some costs.


did he not ask you when/if the tb had been changed??

Did you not know this needs to be done every 50-60k ???

or did it snap premeaturely? .



I think its a questions of morals rather than legality

it snapped prematurely. there was another 35k before its recommended change, theres a sticker on the window that also says this. Told him everything about the car including the belt. I looked after this car very well. it surprised me to here about it. I havent seen it myself yet but im arrangeing to meet.

iknorr

C_Breeze wrote:

legally he has no comeback.


However, If i was in your position i would feel somewhat ethically obliged to maybe pay for some costs.


did he not ask you when/if the tb had been changed??

Did you not know this needs to be done every 50-60k ???

or did it snap premeaturely? .



I think its a questions of morals rather than legality

it snapped prematurely. there was another 35k before its recommended change, theres a sticker on the window that also says this. Told him everything about the car including the belt. I looked after this car very well. it surprised me to here about it. I havent seen it myself yet but im arrangeing to meet.

BnA

iknorr wrote:

it snapped prematurely. there was another 35k before its recommended change, theres a sticker on the window that also says this. Told him everything about the car including the belt. I looked after this car very well. it surprised me to here about it. I havent seen it myself yet but im arrangeing to meet.

I wouldn't arrange to meet him if I was you. You are only asking for trouble. If you are telling the truth here, then you have no reason at all whatsoever to give him a single penny.

mike65

You'll have to put him right you owe him nothing and a calm chat should placate him (bring a freind!).

Mike.

iknorr

BnA wrote:

I wouldn't arrange to meet him if I was you. You are only asking for trouble. If you are telling the truth here, then you have no reason at all whatsoever to give him a single penny.

its a shiity situation. I must inspect the car to see if hes telling the truth.

Morally its a ****ty situation. If i bought a car privately and that happened to me then id like the person to at least go halfs on the repair costs.
But then again, if legally, i do not have to pay out anything, y should i?

Andrewf20

For moral support, refer him to this thread to see what us folks also think.

iknorr

mike65 wrote:

You'll have to put him right you owe him nothing and a calm chat should placate him (bring a freind!).

Mike.

yeah. ill have a friend with me alright but im not looking for a confrontation.

Itll cost a minimum of 500 yoyos to get the exgine running again...assuming that the valves have not being damaged. id nearly give him 150 just cos of Karma and morality

BnA

I wouldn't to be honest with you. If it was something that went because of your wear and tear on the car or because of maintenence that you neglected to do... then fair enough.

But in this case, you done the timing belt when it was due, you didn't try and hide anything, you got the car NCT'ed. It is just one of these things. It could happen anythime. There is no doubt at all that legally you don't have to give him anything, but I would also say morally, you don't owe him anything either (and I would be fairly soft at the best of times)

iknorr

Andrewf20 wrote:

For moral support, refer him to this thread to see what us folks also think.

Morality is a generalisation of whats right & wrong... if the general population thinks it right to tell him to PFO then im ok with doing that

DannyBuoy

iknorr wrote:

yeah on page 12 of this http://www.ncts.ie/nctmanual.pdf it says its checked. Probably just a visual but id assume they would check if it jumped a cog or two?

This refers to a verbal check with the customer, the reasoning behind it is primarily to ensure that a diesel engine wont blow as its revved to governor speed as part of the smoke test. It’s impractical to physically check the belt during the nct test. See the small print at the bottom of the page you refer to...
But I agree with the general opinion, bad luck for the new owner.
"Check with the vehicle owner that the camshaft belt has been changed at the vehicle manufacturers specified interval. Removing the camshaft belt cover is not part of the roadworthiness test."

iknorr

BnA wrote:

I wouldn't to be honest with you. If it was something that went because of your wear and tear on the car or because of maintenence that you neglected to do... then fair enough.

But in this case, you done the timing belt when it was due, you didn't try and hide anything, you got the car NCT'ed. It is just one of these things. It could happen anythime. There is no doubt at all that legally you don't have to give him anything, but I would also say morally, you don't owe him anything either (and I would be fairly soft at the best of times)

nice to hear that . Thats the morality part cleared up

iknorr

DannyBuoy wrote:

This refers to a verbal check with the customer, the reasoning behind it is primarily to ensure that a diesel engine wont blow as its revved to governor speed as part of the smoke test. It’s impractical to physically check the belt during the nct test. See the small print at the bottom of the page you refer to...
But I agree with the general opinion, bad luck for the new owner.
"Check with the vehicle owner that the camshaft belt has been changed at the vehicle manufacturers specified interval. Removing the camshaft belt cover is not part of the roadworthiness test."

i see. but then again it was within its recommended milage. pure bad luck i guess

lightening

mike65 wrote:

(bring a freind!).

Mike.

Dwilly

This happened me, only difference was I had just sold the car to my sister
Damage was €1,500 (inc. damaged valves, etc.) I gave her half though she wouldn't take it. Ended up transferring it into her account!

Same thing again, snapped prematurely although if it had been to Joe Public I probably wouldn't have paid half, but maybe contributed just as a good will gesture. You're not obliged to so it just comes down to what you think will resolve the situation quickly and fairly.

2nd time it happened to that Astra. Apparently they're known for it.

unkel

BnA wrote:

There is no doubt at all that legally you don't have to give him anything, but I would also say morally, you don't owe him anything either (and I would be fairly soft at the best of times)

Agree. Ring him back to cancel meeting him. Say you're sorry he has been unlucky, but it has nothing to do with you

MercMad

Its bad luck on the new owners part and you are in no way liable, moraly or legally or otherwise !

It is an unfortunate situation for the new owner but he/she has sole responsibility AND you do not know whether the new owner has an aggressive driving style which in many cases leads to premature failure. It has happened where enthusiastic use of a new car has led to similr issues !

Also I would not pay out anything towards the repair as this in itself is accepting some part of the blame. You pay €150 towards an alledged €500 bill and all of a sudden the bill is €2000 and they look for a similar percentage !

Stay away, and DO NOT MEET in person !!

Esel

If you meet the buyer, you will probably be guilted into paying something. Cancel the meeting, as unkel said. It's bad luck on the buyer's part, nothing more.

Did you get the belt fitted by a main dealer? If so, you should investigate whether they would be obliged to take care of the problem. What model/how old is the car? If you are going to try returning to the dealer, you can pretend the car still belongs to you.

gyppo

Sound advice from the last 3 posts here OP. Dont meet, or feel under any obligation. Sh1t happens on a daily basis, and in this case its not your fault.

PauloMN

C_Breeze wrote:

legally he has no comeback.


However, If i was in your position i would feel somewhat ethically obliged to maybe pay for some costs.

Note to self: buy used car from C_Breeze in future.

Why would you feel obliged to pay for some costs? If the seller hasn't withheld anything and something goes wrong with the car, why would/should he even feel the need to pay towards it?

OP - I agree that you shouldn't meet him. Meeting him will just acknowledge the fact that you want to carry some of the cost of the problem, and that's not right. In fact, if we're bringing ethics and morals into this, I think that guy was well out of order to even contact you about this, and it's something I'd never do to someone.

Explain to him politely that it was a private sale, you told him everything about the car that he asked and you didn't withhold anything. If he gets shirty about it, I'd just explain that he should have gone to a garage (and paid thousands more) if he wanted a warranty.

Owen

I had a similar thread a few months back where I was accused of clocking the car I sold. I told the new owner that it wasn't clocked, and if he wanted to take it to court, to go ahead and do so as a) I hadn't clocked anything, and b) he hadn't a leg to stand on legally as he had inspected, and bought the vehicle privately.

Do the same. Cancel the meeting, and suggest he contact a solicitor. He won't be long learning about his rights, or rather, lack thereof.

Uuuh Patsy

I know the Ford Zetec Timing Belt is warrantied to 50-60k miles or some such. Is there any similar arrnagement with your make. Sorry if I missed car make in previous post

sunny2004

This thread just proves the difference between real life and virtual life..

I truly wonder how many of the "I would pay, so my soul wouldnt burn in hell brigade" would in fact pay in reality.

Its simple, if you knew it was going to happen then do what you feel is right..

If you didnt know then its simply bad luck !

CoDy1

Do not meet the buyer - It might look like you are admitting guilt.

bazz26

I would agree with the general idea on here, don't meet with the other party and definately don't pay a penny. If you pay out as a goodwill jesture where will it end then? The next time there is a problem with the car will he expect you to pay towards that too? If he wants a guarantee then he should have bought from a dealer.

"Buyer beware" applies on a private sale, it was his responsibility to have the car inspected properly before agreeing to buy it. Also the NCT is only a test of road worthiness, not a guarantee that the car is in full working mechanical order.

Del2005

I agree with the others, don't meet with the buyer and don't pay any money. Would they come back looking for money if they got a puncture. The buyer has a rather large cheek TBH. When you buy privately you've no comeback, thats why the cars are generally cheaper. Don't meet and if they call back asking for money say you'll call the Gardai and report then as a stalker:D

Chiron

I agree with most of the posts here. OP has no obligation legal or moral to the buyer. Dont meet up as its much easier to manipulate you or make you feel guilty in person.

Tell him to speak to a solicitor if he has a problem.

iknorr

cheers for the advice all. (there too many post to reply to each one individually)
Plan at the moment so is wait for another call from him. Explain im not legally obligated to pay him anything. Tell him its just bad luck, and if he wants to go further to contact his solicitor. I just need to contact my solicitor to be 100% on the legalities.

iknorr

Uuuh Patsy wrote:

I know the Ford Zetec Timing Belt is warrantied to 50-60k miles or some such. Is there any similar arrnagement with your make. Sorry if I missed car make in previous post

i cant remember exactly but i know there was another 35k left b4 i the recommended timing belt change.

The good news bus has come to town!!!!

I have been in contact with a lad who had a similar situation. He sold a golf. 1 month later the engine siezed up. he was taken to court. The buyer was told the car was sold in good faith and was not under warrenty from the seller. So he had no claim.

TwoShedsJackson

iknorr wrote:

cheers for the advice all. (there too many post to reply to each one individually)
Plan at the moment so is wait for another call from him. Explain im not legally obligated to pay him anything. Tell him its just bad luck, and if he wants to go further to contact his solicitor. I just need to contact my solicitor to be 100% on the legalities.

Don't mention solicitors, there's no need to be putting ideas in his head or threatening to escalate it to legal claims etc. (which is how he would probably perceive it).

Just say car was sold as seen etc. and that you're not liable for anything thereafter, which is true anyway. Stand your ground but be polite about it, and you'll likely never hear anything more about it.

If you do hear legal threats etc. then respond to that as and when, but don't jump the gun.

iknorr

thats not a bad idea at all.

antodeco

Did the buyer get a mechanic to look at it? If you buy a second hand house and then the fridge stops working, does the original owner pay for it? I doubt it. Its just bad luck for the buyer! On terms of being moral, if you sold it in good faith and assumed everything was fine with it, I wouldnt feel too guilty. You were not responsible for it snapping. Anyways, who knows what he was doing to the car in the mean time...

bonkey

Taken from here:

Second-hand goods

These must also be of merchantable quality but the standards are lower. If you buy something through a private sale, your rights are greatly diminished. Goods do not have to be of merchantable quality, they merely have to be owned by the seller and fit their description. It is up to you to check out the goods before buying.

From this, it would appear that the purchaser is SOL. The car was in working order when sold, had had passed its NCT as claimed. Ergo, it met its sale description, unless you had something really weird in there...

dave2pvd

You know, it is just plain old bad luck; like others have said.

You'll have plenty of it during the course of your life! He's receiving part of his portion right now. He'll get over it in time.

I too would be one of the more compassionate about something like this, had I been negligent in some way. You have not been negligent.

Don't pay any money - legally, that might be construed as an admission of negligence on your part.

Was it a VW? 1.8T or 2.0T?

drdre

Its the buyers problem.He should have got it checked by a mechanic.Dont waste your time listening to him.

seamus

In this case, you're better off giving nothing than giving *something*. If this guy was bull-headed enough to go to court, it could well be argued that becuase you provided part of the cost of the repairs, you implicitly accepted liability for the fault and could be ordered to pay full costs.

OK, so it's worst-case, but it's a possibility. Sympathise with his bad luck and tell him that you're going to have no further dealings with him.

As said above, don't mention "legal" or "solicitor" unless he does. I know a lot of people who simply close their ears and pull a freak out as soon as they hear the "S" word.

~~SKYHIGH~~

Report back, would be interesting to see how the new owner has responded..

bazz26

I doubt something like would even be entertained in a court of law. Any decent solicitor worth his wage would know their client's position regarding the law and "Caveat Emptor".

kdevitt

bazz26 wrote:

I doubt something like would even be entertained in a court of law. Any decent solicitor worth his wage would know their client's position regarding the law and "Caveat Emptor".

My missus' law company got the full purchase price back on an Alfa which was sold which a dodgy engine - there was enough evidence though to show the seller knew there was a problem though.

iknorr

dave2pvd wrote:

You know, it is just plain old bad luck; like others have said.

You'll have plenty of it during the course of your life! He's receiving part of his portion right now. He'll get over it in time.

I too would be one of the more compassionate about something like this, had I been negligent in some way. You have not been negligent.

Don't pay any money - legally, that might be construed as an admission of negligence on your part.

Was it a VW? 1.8T or 2.0T?

no it was a toyota celica 2.0l

iknorr

kdevitt wrote:

My missus' law company got the full purchase price back on an Alfa which was sold which a dodgy engine - there was enough evidence though to show the seller knew there was a problem though.

thats the difference though. No evidence of a problem.

dave2pvd

iknorr wrote:

no it was a toyota celica 2.0l

<one eyebrow raised>

That's a surprise.

Eager to hear how your conversation went.

DaDa

seamus wrote:

In this case, you're better off giving nothing than giving *something*. If this guy was bull-headed enough to go to court, it could well be argued that becuase you provided part of the cost of the repairs, you implicitly accepted liability for the fault and could be ordered to pay full costs.

OK, so it's worst-case, but it's a possibility. Sympathise with his bad luck and tell him that you're going to have no further dealings with him.

As said above, don't mention "legal" or "solicitor" unless he does. I know a lot of people who simply close their ears and pull a freak out as soon as they hear the "S" word.

Agree 100% with Seamus

cantdecide

I've never known the word 'solicitor' to strike anything but comtempt in anyone-

It is bad luck but there's no need to antagonise the poor fella- he is wrong to do so but he feels cheated. Don't be a douche, iknorr, don't pay out but keep the stiff upper lip and leave the threats out, even if he gets hot under the collar.

If there is evidence of the cambelt being done available- surely the best thing to do is pass on the info to the seller. Surely the garage/ part manufacturer has to be someway responsible. He will feel like you are trying to help even though it's not your problem...

Captain Slow IRL

Caveat emptor

He might not be telling the whole truth - coulda revved the b@lls out of the engine before it snapped.

I was in a similiar situation last year; sold my civic and the next day the girl rang me to tell me the engine light was on. I kept in contact with her (out of curiousity) and it turned out to be the ckp sensor wire (my fault after replacing timing belt and not securing wire back to timing cover) It only cost 40 to repair at a main dealer in Galway, and she let it slide, but I'm sure if it was more we would have been in an akward situation!