What is the Christian Message?

JimiTime

This is carried over from another thread. To all the Christians: What do you believe the Christian message is? Do you believe that there are some doctrines that one must accept also? If so, what?

To the Atheist or non-christian:In your experience, What do you percieve the Christian message is?

Zombrex

JimiTime wrote:

To the Atheist or non-christian:In your experience, What do you percieve the Christian message is?

That the problems of humanity are due to "sin" and that this sin will ultimately condemn people to death.

God, as an act of love, can save people from this inevitability, but one must commit to the Christian religion. He isn't going to save everyone.

To an atheist cynic like myself there are very important reasons for the way that Christianity, and all religions, are structured, to ensure devotion from followers and also to ensure the continuation of the religion itself.

"Sin" is the fundamental aspect of the religion, it is the reason the religion exists in the first place, it is the justification for why one is supposed to join the religion, to be saved.

Remove the concept of sin from the religion and the house of cards falls down.

If Christians are reading this and getting annoyed just imagine what your religion would be like if the concept of sin didn't exist and no one (or everyone) could be saved from death or hell.

CerebralCortex

The above. Plus institutionalisation and mindless sheep like following enforced by fear alone.

Rob_l

the message is free wine and bread I think

JimiTime

Wicknight wrote:

That the problems of humanity are due to "sin" and that this sin will ultimately condemn people to death.

God, as an act of love, can save people from this inevitability, but one must commit to the Christian religion. He isn't going to save everyone.

And where did you recieve this message from? or is it made up of your discussions, assertions etc over the years? do the above 4 lines cover what you think the christian message is?

Also, the rest of your post I think will drag this discussion down a different path which is why i'll refrain from commenting on it for now.

JimiTime

CerebralCortex wrote:

The above. Plus institutionalisation and mindless sheep like following enforced by fear alone.

Hmmmm. I really don't want it to go down this road. While I'm sure you honestly feel this way, it doesn't really answer the question of what you percieve the christian 'message' to be. You may se them as consequences of religion etc, but however much you disagree with the message, I'm asking, what you think the message of Christ is?

Scofflaw

JimiTime wrote:

Hmmmm. I really don't want it to go down this road. While I'm sure you honestly feel this way, it doesn't really answer the question of what you percieve the christian 'message' to be. You may se them as consequences of religion etc, but however much you disagree with the message, I'm asking, what you think the message of Christ is?

I suspect that you are using the word 'message' in a very specifically Christian sense. The result would appear to be that atheists are responding with their perception of what Christianity teaches and/or stands for.

cordially,
Scofflaw

JimiTime

Scofflaw wrote:

I suspect that you are using the word 'message' in a very specifically Christian sense. The result would appear to be that atheists are responding with their perception of what Christianity teaches and/or stands for.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Maybe. I suppose to be more specific, for the non-christian reader. What do you percieve is the 'central' message that Christianity 'professes' to teach?

Hows that?

JC 2K3

See there are two "messages" here, there's what Jesus taught us and there's the whole "You will burn in hell if you don't obey what Jesus taught us" message also.

PDN

JC 2K3 wrote:

See there are two "messages" here, there's what Jesus taught us and there's the whole "You will burn in hell if you don't obey what Jesus taught us" message also.

And the funny thing is that Jesus taught about hell more than any Christians I've ever met.

Zombrex

JimiTime wrote:

And where did you recieve this message from? or is it made up of your discussions, assertions etc over the years?

Pretty much. Living in a Christian country one is exposed to Christianity quite a bit (unfortunately).

About 6 months I was stopped in Temple Bar where a polite yet rather enthusiastic man who told me "Jesus can save you". In a little test to see did he actually understand this sound bite preaching I asked him "Save me from what?" to which he replied, rather puzzled and uncomfortably, "From your own sin" I replied "Its ok, I don't have any" and walked on.

I think the reason you, and most Christians, wouldn't see "sin" as the fundamental concept in the Christian religion is that you simply take it for a given that it exists. It exists in the same way the air we breath exists or the sunlight from the Sun exists. Its not the message, its a given.

JimiTime

Wicknight wrote:

I think the reason you, and most Christians, wouldn't see "sin" as the fundamental concept in the Christian religion is that you simply take it for a given that it exists. It exists in the same way the air we breath exists or the sunlight from the Sun exists. Its not the message, its a given.

Ok, I'll answer this, but I don't want to be dragged off by it. I agree. Sin is the foundation of religion. Without sin, religion does not exist. But sin is not the message. Sin is a factor in the message. And indeed, without sin, no message.

Zombrex

JimiTime wrote:

Sin is a factor in the message.

I would accept that. Sin is the justification for why the "message" exist in the first place.

My point was that one cannot divorce this message from the concept of sin and salvation, as so many Christians seem to pretend you can. The concept of sin is a concept of the religion. It is part of the message, it must be explained first before everything else is explained.

Or at least you can divorce the message from the concepts of sin and salvation, but then it just becomes some nice, but not particularly spectacular, words about being nice and kind to people.

PDN

Sin appears to have become conflated with hell in this thread.

I would agree that much of Christianity is to do with overcoming the sin problem, but that does not just mean preaching about hell.

Of course if somebody is excessively selfish then avoiding the eternal consequences of sin (ie getting your 'fire insurance' to avoid hell) becomes the the only issue. I think this has frequently been the emphasis of ritualistic forms of Christianity such as Catholicism.

However, for most thoughtful people the sin problem is much more than avoiding hell. Most people who I see visiting our church, and committing their lives to Christ, are more focussed on how sin affect their lives now. They want to be better parents, better spouses, to make their life count for something, and they recognise that often the obstacles to this lie in ourselves.

JimiTime

PDN wrote:

Sin appears to have become conflated with hell in this thread.

It is sad, that the perception of the christian message by alot of non christians is 'you are going to hell until you join us'. Or maybe thats just a bit that rings in their head, that they feel relates to them in some way? Maybe.

I think this has frequently been the emphasis of ritualistic forms of Christianity such as Catholicism.

'ritualistic forms of christianity'. I like it. Very good way of describing such things.

So PDN, if you were to share the good news with me, what would it be?

Zombrex

JimiTime wrote:

It is sad, that the perception of the christian message by alot of non christians is 'you are going to hell until you join us'.

Why is that sad?

JimiTime wrote:

So PDN, if you were to share the good news with me, what would it be?

I would be very interested in how either you or PDN would "share the good news" with me, since you seem to both believe that those in the past who have attempted to do this with me have been getting the message wrong.

Zombrex

PDN wrote:

They want to be better parents, better spouses, to make their life count for something, and they recognise that often the obstacles to this lie in ourselves.

True, but then everyone wants that.

The issue in terms of this thread is how Christianity frames that in terms of sin and salvation.

"Hell" is used by the religion as a reason the religion can do something that nothing else can, that being save you from it. Plenty of other things may make you a better parent, a better spouse, make your life count for something. Nothing else will save you from death or hell.

At the end of the day Christianity, to have lasted for so long, has to appear to provide something that nothing else can.

If it was simply a case that Christianity claimed to make you a better, happier, person it wouldn't get very far, since lots of things claim to do that (even more in this age of self help books).

JimiTime

Wicknight wrote:

Why is that sad?

Because, death is only the consequence for rejecting the truth of Christ, it is not the message of Christ.

I would be very interested in how either you or PDN would "share the good news" with me, since you seem to both believe that those in the past who have attempted to do this with me have been getting the message wrong.

I never said that those who gave you the message got it wrong I think it would be very hard to get it 'right' with you. Just because you give the message in the way it was intended, does not mean its going to sink in with everyone, or that everyone will accept it. I think you conclude that its threatening death or hell that makes people 'conform'. We do know that there are consequences for rejecting Christ, but its not the threat of such consequences that make me Love Christ or God. I don't think someone can love under threat tbh.

PDN

JimiTime wrote:

So PDN, if you were to share the good news with me, what would it be?

I would start by listening to you. I would want to get to know you. I would want to find out what issues concern you - the things that make you happy and the things that frustrate you.

Jesus used to ask people, "What do you want me to do for you?" Today most Christians seem more concerned in telling people what they should want, or telling them what they need.

So I would want to get to know you as a person, rather than as a potential convert. Then I would try to see if I have something that can help you with the areas where you have concerns. Sometimes the answers will be in having a relationship with Jesus Christ, but at other times it may be just to offer a listening ear or practical support. If you are stressed out over the lack of adequate child care then it's probably not much good quoting Bible verses at you - but putting you in touch with a decent creche would be much more appropriate.

I would hope that I can show you that Jesus can help you be a better person, and that helps you build successful relationships, in the social realm, in business and in family life.

So do I care whether you get saved from hell or not? Of course I do. But Jesus came that we might live life to the full (John 10:10), not just to avoid hell.

Let me take the time to show you the kind of evangelism that I hate. My daughter is in her second year at College and, being a strong & committed Christian, decided to sign up for the CU. One of her best friends accompanied her, a young guy who just happens to be gay and pretty obviously so. While my daughter was signing up some joker proceeded to aggressively start quizzing her friend and insisting that he needed to 'pray the salvation prayer'. In the end this poor chap, who is extremely good natured and too nice to tell the aggressive Christian to get lost, ended up repeating a prayer just to get the guy to leave him alone. Now, the Christian may have thought he was proclaiming the message, he may have marked another notch on his holster (possibly two notches if he feels that he gets double brownie points for converting gays) but he certainly did nothing to advance the cause of Jesus Christ. I am proud of my daughter that she tore up her application to sign up for the CU. She obviously has learned some of the Christian values we have tried to instill in her.

Christianity is useless unless it produces positive change in our lives. Otherwise we are no better than past generations of 'missionaries' who ordered natives to be baptised at the point of a sword and then claimed to have produced a hatful of converts. When positive change occurs in our lives then we want to help our friends, neighbours and family experience similar change. This is true proclamation of the Christian message.

JimiTime

Wicknight wrote:

At the end of the day Christianity, to have lasted for so long, has to appear to provide something that nothing else can.

I think you present this as if it was negative. But, I would agree. Christ 'does' offer something no-one else can. Salvation, and everlasting life.

Zombrex

JimiTime wrote:

I think you present this as if it was negative.

I don't mean to present it as either negative or positive. It is simply a fact of being a religion.

All religions work under the same principles -

1 - Convince people that there is something wrong, or that what is wrong is caused by a specific problem (Christians have the doctrine of sin, Scientologists the doctrine of bad brain waves etc).

2 - Convince people that only the religion understand this properly and can help people with this.

3 - Convince people that to get this help they must follow the religion.

Religions operate by appearing to provide solutions that nothing else can. That is the point of the religion.

Zombrex

JimiTime wrote:

Because, death is only the consequence for rejecting the truth of Christ, it is not the message of Christ.

Still not sure why it is sad though. Hell is the consequence for rejecting the truth of Jesus. How is telling someone that sad? Surely it is a happy think that they now know this truth?

JimiTime wrote:

I never said that those who gave you the message got it wrong

Apologies, that seemed to be implied by your comments about sin not being the message.

JimiTime wrote:

I think it would be very hard to get it 'right' with you.

I think so too

JimiTime wrote:

I think you conclude that its threatening death or hell that makes people 'conform'.

Not really, though it is a factor.

The concept of hell is part of the guilt of sin, it is part of the idea that the religion must convince people that sin exists, its bad, it leads to bad things, and that you need the religion to help you with this (see my other post).

Ultimately the point of all religion is to convince followers that they need the religion, that it will help them when nothing else will.

That is how it survives. I don't mean to imply that followers do this consciously, but it is what the religion does.

"Hell" is a factor in this for the Christian religion. Hell is a reason everyone needs the religion, even the really really happy, content people. There must be a strong negative down side to not joining the religion.

Otherwise the religion is simply a perk, not a necessity.

hairyheretic

JimiTime wrote:

Christ 'does' offer something no-one else can. Salvation, and everlasting life.

Don't most beliefs offer that though? Leaving aside the reincarnation issue, most beliefs that I am familiar with offer those who adhere to them some form of eternal life. Christianity is hardly alone in that regard.

Scofflaw

JimiTime wrote:

At the end of the day Christianity, to have lasted for so long, has to appear to provide something that nothing else can.

I think you present this as if it was negative. But, I would agree. Christ 'does' offer something no-one else can. Salvation, and everlasting life.

As Wicknight says, you appear to be operating on the premise that atheists simply haven't had the Christian message explained to them properly.

For what it's worth, my understanding of the core Christian message would be as follows -

Man is imperfect, God is perfect - that is why God loves Man, but Man often rejects God. Through accepting and admitting ('letting in', or 'opening your heart to') God's love, Man can overcome his imperfections and become, if not perfect, far less imperfect than he was. However, salvation comes through unconditional acceptance of God's love, rather through becoming 'perfect' - even the most imperfect can be saved, as long as they truly accept God's love. Only in salvation is life eternal - in rejection, death eternal.

There are plenty of corollaries and ancillaries to the message, of course, many of which are aimed at establishing things like God's authority to make this commitment, and Christ's authority to teach God's message.

cordially,
Scofflaw

wolfsbane

Wicknight wrote:

True, but then everyone wants that.

The issue in terms of this thread is how Christianity frames that in terms of sin and salvation.

"Hell" is used by the religion as a reason the religion can do something that nothing else can, that being save you from it. Plenty of other things may make you a better parent, a better spouse, make your life count for something. Nothing else will save you from death or hell.

At the end of the day Christianity, to have lasted for so long, has to appear to provide something that nothing else can.

If it was simply a case that Christianity claimed to make you a better, happier, person it wouldn't get very far, since lots of things claim to do that (even more in this age of self help books).

An excellent point. Yes, being a (true) Christian will mean a righteous lifestyle, but even an unbeliever may live most acceptably towards his fellowman. The crucial difference for the Christian is being able to live right with God.

It is the Christian claim that only the Christian gospel enables that. All other religions claim their's is effective, and may also assert it to be exclusively so. So their claims are no different from that of the Christian religion.

The crucial point for us is this: Christianity is either right in its claims to be God's exclusive message and means of salvation for man, or it is completely wrong. If one tries to make it just another way to God, then one has to abandon its core teachings. Honesty would demand an acknowledgement that the new system is not authentic Christianity but a different product using similar branding.

wolfsbane

Scofflaw wrote:

As Wicknight says, you appear to be operating on the premise that atheists simply haven't had the Christian message explained to them properly.

For what it's worth, my understanding of the core Christian message would be as follows -

Man is imperfect, God is perfect - that is why God loves Man, but Man often rejects God. Through accepting and admitting ('letting in', or 'opening your heart to') God's love, Man can overcome his imperfections and become, if not perfect, far less imperfect than he was. However, salvation comes through unconditional acceptance of God's love, rather through becoming 'perfect' - even the most imperfect can be saved, as long as they truly accept God's love. Only in salvation is life eternal - in rejection, death eternal.

There are plenty of corollaries and ancillaries to the message, of course, many of which are aimed at establishing things like God's authority to make this commitment, and Christ's authority to teach God's message.

cordially,
Scofflaw

A pretty good attempt at expressing the Christian gospel. It reflects the apostle's words:
Ephesians 2: 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Scofflaw

wolfsbane wrote:

A pretty good attempt at expressing the Christian gospel. It reflects the apostle's words:
Ephesians 2: 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Well, I'll take that as quite a compliment, coming from you as it does.

cordially,
Scofflaw

BrianCalgary

Scofflaw wrote:

As Wicknight says, you appear to be operating on the premise that atheists simply haven't had the Christian message explained to them properly.

For what it's worth, my understanding of the core Christian message would be as follows -

Man is imperfect, God is perfect - that is why God loves Man, but Man often rejects God. Through accepting and admitting ('letting in', or 'opening your heart to') God's love, Man can overcome his imperfections and become, if not perfect, far less imperfect than he was. However, salvation comes through unconditional acceptance of God's love, rather through becoming 'perfect' - even the most imperfect can be saved, as long as they truly accept God's love. Only in salvation is life eternal - in rejection, death eternal.

There are plenty of corollaries and ancillaries to the message, of course, many of which are aimed at establishing things like God's authority to make this commitment, and Christ's authority to teach God's message.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Well said scofflaw.

To me the Christian message is based on Matthew 22

37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

We have a responsibility to have a good relationship with God and our fellow man.

Asiaprod

hairyheretic wrote:

Don't most beliefs offer that though? Leaving aside the reincarnation issue, most beliefs that I am familiar with offer those who adhere to them some form of eternal life. Christianity is hardly alone in that regard.

Nice point:)

Scofflaw

Scofflaw wrote:

As Wicknight says, you appear to be operating on the premise that atheists simply haven't had the Christian message explained to them properly.

So, JimiTime, I have to ask, after that interval of silence, was that your premise - that I'm an atheist only because I hadn't had Christianity properly explained to me?

Fallow ground, after all, requires more preparation than simply broadcasting the seed.

cordially,
Scofflaw

JimiTime

Scofflaw wrote:

So, JimiTime, I have to ask, after that interval of silence,

I hadn't realised this post was here. Sorry.

was that your premise - that I'm an atheist only because I hadn't had Christianity properly explained to me?

Not at all. I was just wondering about the differences in peoples perceptions. I started the thread mainly for Christian response, and added the atheist bit at the end. There was no purpose but to collate information really, and maybe discuss it with the other Christians, as to what the message is.

Scofflaw

JimiTime wrote:

I hadn't realised this post was here. Sorry.

Not at all. I was just wondering about the differences in peoples perceptions. I started the thread mainly for Christian response, and added the atheist bit at the end. There was no purpose but to collate information really, and maybe discuss it with the other Christians, as to what the message is.

Fair enough - apologies for asking on another thread! Out of interest, what do you make of someone who understands the Christian message and 'rejects' it?

cordially,
Scofflaw

JimiTime

Scofflaw wrote:

Out of interest, what do you make of someone who understands the Christian message and 'rejects' it?

cordially,
Scofflaw

TBH, I think the Christian message has been so corrupted by professing 'christians' and religions over the years, I really wonder if alot of people who think they 'have' the message really don't have a clue. Its about living the message, as well as speaking it. People have seen the hypocricy in religion and I think alot who 'reject' it, reject it on the grounds of this and similar things, rather than actually rejecting Christ. One cannot reject Christ until one knows Christ. Only God will be the judge of their hearts though. If they truly do know Christ, and oppose him for whatever reason, the consequence is clear.