Another one bites the dust (FF TD shocker)

mike65

Has anyone got a complete list of Fianna Fail chancers who have been before the courts/tribunal and found guilty or done time in jail?

The latest is former Limerick TD Michael Collins who was found guilty of getting tax clearance by fraud today.

Last year we had the case of a councillor Michael Fahy who ripped off Galway county council and dispite his best efforts went to jail.

Liam Lawlor trips off the tongue of course.

If you can think of a name please add it.

Mike.

Fratton Fred

mike65 wrote:

Has anyone got a complete list of Fianna Fail chancers who have been before the courts/tribunal and found guilty or done time in jail?

The latest is former Limerick TD Michael Collins who was found guilty of getting tax clearance by fraud today.

Last year we had the case of a councillor Michael Fahy who ripped off Galway county council and dispite his best efforts went to jail.

Liam Lawlor trips off the tongue of course.

If you can think of a name please add it.

Mike.

Bertie Ahern,

Oh no, that's just wishful thinking:D

Dingatron

In addition to mike65's post:


Galway County Councillors unanimously accepted that Michael Fahy's absence from local authority meetings was 'due to illness and his attendance in Dublin.' Castlerea must now be a suburb of Dublin?

Under the legislation if a councillor is absent from meetings for more than six months he/she is deemed to have resigned.

Mick86

Ray Burke.

OTK

Ray Burke - former minister for justice, foreign affairs, environment, communications, energy, industry and commerce - 6 months jail for making false tax returns.
Mattie McGrath TD, Tipperary South, on trial for assault
Jim McDaid, former minister, convicted of drunk driving, 3 times over limit
GV Wright, former TD, drove over a woman in Dublin while drunk, convicted
Eddie Bohan tax defaulter
Beverley Cooper-Flynn determined by the supreme court to have no repuation to defend as she had facilitated tax evasion.

Mick86

Sean Doherty-authorised the tapping of the phones of Geraldine Kennedy and Bruce Arnold. They sued and won in 1987.

Jackie laughlin

Three questions:
1. Why is the list confined to FF?

2. How many "wrongdoers" have been re-elected?

3. Does being elected following "anti-social" behaviour imply voter approval for that behaviour?

jjbrien

Lest we forget Charlie Haughey

mike65

Jackie, of all the parties in the Dail (or not, depending) FF are easily the worst in terms of questionable dealings and law breaking, sure others have been wrong - Michael Lowry being a fine example but at least FG got rid.

Beverly Flynn on the other hand is back in which tells us much about FF culture I think.

Mike.

eoin5

I think FF have had so much of this going on because they have been in power longer than the other parties and they seem to collect business friends pretty easily.

Red Alert

Michael Lowrey's wrongdoings are pretty mild on the scale of some of the above.

The_Minister

At this very moment a Fine Gael councillor is being held in Illinois on the charge of battering a woman. But its not Fianna Fail so lets all just leave that out eh?

Agent Smith

That, and he hasn't been convicted, like the above...

Jackie laughlin

I realise fully that the FF list is much longer than that of any other party. However, it is unfair to name and criticise someone because they are a member of FF, while ignoring the crimes of others.

It would be essential too to have a sense of proportion. All wrongdoing - while unacceptable - is not equally bad.

I'm interested too in the constant justification by reference to election success.

Mick86

The_Minister wrote:

At this very moment a Fine Gael councillor is being held in Illinois on the charge of battering a woman. But its not Fianna Fail so lets all just leave that out eh?

I'm sure nobody would object if those who are peeved at a thread on FF baddies started their own thread on FG/Lab/Green baddies.

For those who can't wait for the next episode...

Ex-mayor on US battery charge
From ireland.comThursday, 27th September, 2007


A former mayor of Waterford and serving Fine Gael city councillor has been released on bail after he was arrested and charged with battery following a disturbance at a wedding in the United States at the weekend.

Cllr Hilary Quinlan (50), of Daisy Terrace, Waterford, was arrested by police in Bloomington, Illinois, after they were called to the scene of a disturbance at a wedding at the Chateau Hotel, 1601 Jumer Drive, Bloomington, in the early hours of last Saturday.

Mr Quinlan was arrested by police and charged with domestic battery of his wife's niece, Helena Brown.

The charge was later altered to simple battery and Mr Quinlan was brought to McClean County Jail, Illinois, where he was detained for two days.

According to a spokesman for McClean County Jail, Mr Quinlan was released at about noon on Monday after he posted $100 bail. He is due to appear at McClean County Circuit Court on November 7th for arraignment on the battery charge.

Mr Quinlan was elected mayor of Waterford in June 2005 for a third time. He previously served as mayor of the city in 1991/1992 and 2001/2002.

He was first elected to the city council in 1985 when he replaced his uncle, Cllr Billy Quinlan, who had retired.

Mr Quinlan is currently a member of Waterford City Council's Planning Strategic Policy Committee and sits on the HSE South Regional Health Forum.

He has also served on the Waterford City Enterprise Board and the South East Tourism Authority.

Mr Quinlan, who is married with three children, could not be contacted yesterday for comment on his arrest, despite repeated attempts by The Irish Times via phone and e-mail.

It is believed Mr Quinlan is still in the United States.

http://home.eircom.net/content/irelandcom/topstories/11184328?view=Eircomnet

Jackie laughlin

I'm certainly not a FF supporter and not at all peeved at a FF list of baddies. However, I think it unfair and inaccurate an approach.

There must be some sort of hierarchy of offences, e.g. assault must rate more disapproval than, say, obtaining a tax cert. by fraud. (OK, I'm not mentioning the elephant in the room.)

I'm still interested in the question of getting public support. Wrongdoing is often defended by saying, "Well, the voting public clearly approve of me."

Mick86

Jackie laughlin wrote:

I'm certainly not a FF supporter and not at all peeved at a FF list of baddies. However, I think it unfair and inaccurate an approach.

I think it unfair that FF gets all the bungs but I'm not complaining about it much.:D

Jackie laughlin wrote:

There must be some sort of hierarchy of offences, e.g. assault must rate more disapproval than, say, obtaining a tax cert. by fraud. (OK, I'm not mentioning the elephant in the room.)

There is. Presumably you could look at the minimum sentences for each crime and work it out from there. Of course you would also have the argue against how the crimes are perceived. Some people might say that obtaining a fraudulent tax clearance cert is a victimless crime and less serious than assault. But there are different degrees of tax evasion and different degrees of assault.

Jackie laughlin wrote:

I'm still interested in the question of getting public support. Wrongdoing is often defended by saying, "Well, the voting public clearly approve of me."

In Fianna Fáil's case it's voting public still frequently expresses approval of De Valera.:D

Jackie laughlin

I doubt that anyone would say that obtaining a tax clearance cert. by fraud is a victimless crime. I also doubt that anyone would argue that it is more serious than assault. (OK, OK, I mean realistic assault - not some technical laying on of hands.)

I'm attracted to the idea that a criminal should be barred from election forever. (I mean, we have something like that for taxidrivers.) However, if someone has served time, they should be permitted to make a fresh start. Perhaps the sensible solution would be to require a statement of apology and repudiation of the crimes, i.e. a fresh start.

gandalf

TBH I feel personally that Mr Collins should be rotting in jail right now. What kind of message does this give to all the others in power. Lie and attempt to cheat the Revenue and all you get is a slap on the wrist. Judging by the leathered interior of the SUV that transported him to court the 25000 Euro fine is well within his reach as well. This within a week of a woman in danger of losing her home because she is being pursued by the government for legal fees because she failed in sueing the state because the Principal employed by them abused her when she was a child.

I am absolutely sickened by the attitude that "sure FF were in power longer so this can be expected". Corruption is corruption and those found guilty of it especially when they have been put in place by the will of the people and have abused the trust invested in them should be dealt in the harsest way possible not getting limp slap on the wrist.

El Stuntman

gandalf wrote:

I am absolutely sickened by the attitude that "sure FF were in power longer so this can be expected". Corruption is corruption and those found guilty of it especially when they have been put in place by the will of the people and have abused the trust invested in them should be dealt in the harsest way possible not getting limp slap on the wrist.

I agree

but...we keep re-electing the same politicans (Lawlor, Haughey, Burke, Cooper-Flynn, Lowry etc etc).

What does that say about us and out attitude to public probity?

imo, we are closer to Sicily than Scandanavia (if I can mangle a Harneyism)

Jackie laughlin

It reflects very badly on us. The familiar explanation is that these people are elected because of local support. However, the entire population has a constitutional interest in making sure that wrongdoers who seek election have "repented", apologised for their behaviour and made a fresh start.

El Stuntman

let's face it, we are a people who have:

- a great admiration for 'the stroke'

- a high tolerance for tax evasion, welfare fraud, insurance scamming & other sorts of financial crime

- an attitude that 'if I can get away with it, I will - never mind the legality'

no wonder we end up with these politicos, they are only a reflection of ourselves

El Stuntman

I'm about to go way, way off topic here and make a somewhat controversial suggestion:

divide Europe into 'Protestant' (Germany, Scandanavia, Holland etc) and 'Catholic' (Spain, Italy, France, Republic of Ireland etc) countries. (I'm aware that in this post-Christian era, these divisions are somewhat archaic but bear with me)

you will see a quite different approach to corruption in public life between the two groupings.

Bertie wouldn't have lasted 2 days in any of the 'Protestant' countries once the 'dig-out'/bribe/whatever you want to believe yourself stories started coming out. Similarly any of our other corrupt friends from Leinster House and the various county and city councils. Also, once having being found guilty, they would have received far stiffer punishments than those meted out here. Finally, a party that systematically tolerated corruption would not keep getting systematically re-elected!

However, in the 'Catholic' countries, you will see a very different attitude and tolerance for corruption in politics. Italy being the most extreme example - Andreotti was best buds with the Mafia but kept being re-elected .

Is there anything to this hypothesis or am I just nuts?

mike65

roffle El Stuntman stumbles on what many of us have known for centuries!

Crudly put Catholics reckon they can absolve themselves of any wrong doing in the confessional, in the Protestant faiths no such get out clause exists so you WILL reap what you sow in the next world. Hence tougher retribution here on earth.

Mike.

El Stuntman

mike65 wrote:

roffle El Stuntman stumbles on what many of us have known for centuries!

good grief Mike, are you over a thousand years old? :eek:

I knew the people of Waterford had special powers but I didn't know eternal life was one of them!

mike65

'us' in a collective sense!

Mike.

popebenny16

Michael Keating is another one:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2002/0517/keatingm.html

note, not convicted of anything, but RTE seem fairly happy to liberally use another word starting with C....

El Stuntman

every councillor that ever had money funnelled as 'political donations' to them by the property developer's bagman, Frank Dunlop

bonkey

mike65 wrote:

Jackie, of all the parties in the Dail (or not, depending) FF are easily the worst in terms of questionable dealings and law breaking,

Are they? Are they the worst in absolute terms, or relative to the size of the party?

And if you know (and can show) they're the worst, then why are you asking for a list of who the offenders are....surely you should know this information?

Mr.Micro

It goes hand in hand with Irish Politics that a TD with a crooked pedigree will be elected everytime with a bigger majority.After all nothing will happen to them apart from a pretend show of disapproval from the Party ,but in the end back into the fold or out to pasture on a big fat state pension eg Rambo and the Haughey clan .

This is the way of the banana republic.

El Stuntman

bonkey wrote:

Are they? Are they the worst in absolute terms, or relative to the size of the party?

And if you know (and can show) they're the worst, then why are you asking for a list of who the offenders are....surely you should know this information?

well, let's try to put some numbers on this then

here's my (highly unofficial) tally of dodgy FF TDs, allegedly etc:

CJ Haughey - corruption on a grand scale
Ray Burke - corruption on a grand scale
Liam Lawlor - corruption on a grand scale
Michael Collins - convicted of tax evasion
Padraig Flynn - corruption, received £50k from Frank Dunlop
Beverly Cooper Flynn - facilitating tax evasion
GV Wright - received payments from Frank Dunlop, drink driving causing serious injury
Ivor Callely - received kickbacks, attempted to buy off public servant wth offer of free car
Mattie McGrath - charged with assault causing harm
Jim McDaid - drunk driving (driving down the wrong side of a dual carriageway while off his head)


did I miss anyone?

gandalf

TBH I laugh when people say sure WE voted them in. I never voted for them and I never would. The ex-public representatives and current ones that are convicted of a crime should have all pension entitlements removed.

Mr.Micro

All the voters who voted in FF now are expected to accept a freeze in the Health Service and Cancer patients and all seriously ill people will suffer and others will go undiagnosed for longer and possibly miss a window where early diagnosis would help etc. What happened to all the huge surplus of tax receipts,vat,stamp duty that FF were boasting about ? Spent buying the election ........ again ,like the last election .The great HSE even could not employ proper accountants to manage the books .What sort of clowns are running the country? There must be a shortage in the circus .

Mr.Micro

El Stuntman wrote: »

well, let's try to put some numbers on this then

here's my (highly unofficial) tally of dodgy FF TDs, allegedly etc:

CJ Haughey - corruption on a grand scale
Ray Burke - corruption on a grand scale
Liam Lawlor - corruption on a grand scale
Michael Collins - convicted of tax evasion
Padraig Flynn - corruption, received £50k from Frank Dunlop
Beverly Cooper Flynn - facilitating tax evasion
GV Wright - received payments from Frank Dunlop, drink driving causing serious injury
Ivor Callely - received kickbacks, attempted to buy off public servant wth offer of free car
Mattie McGrath - charged with assault causing harm
Jim McDaid - drunk driving (driving down the wrong side of a dual carriageway while off his head)


did I miss anyone?

Bertie in waiting to join the above honourable elite .

padser

It really says a lot about this country that a party with that kind of history - and many of those same people still heavily involved in it gets elected.

I do think though that people giving out about FF taking back BCF are missing a crucial point. If the people of of her constituency are willing to re elect her - knowing full well what her and her father got (probably are still getting) up to WHY should FF not re admit her? In fairness to them they actually did kick her out - which is pretty unusual - and the electorate just went and said - we don't care, we will elect her anyway? If the electorate don't care enough to not re elect her why should FF take the moral high ground??

Jackie laughlin

El Stuntman,
May I ask you to develop your list in two ways? Firstly, could you add wrongdoers from all parties? Secondly, could you assemble the list in order of seriousness of offence?

Does anyone think that convicted criminals should be banned from ever standing for election? What about my suggestion that wrongdoers be required to sign a statement apologising for their past behaviour and condemning such activity BEFORE they can stand for election?

Mr.Micro

As far as I am concerned any Politician who has been found to have done anything illegal or taken money or bribes should not be allowed to stand ever again.Would one keep going to a shop , a bank that was consistently short changing you ?No. Or a doctor .lawyer or whoever who was not up to scratch.


People should wake up to the power they give these people and the damage they can do in power.Its like giving a conman or thief a job in the bank.

Jackie laughlin

That would mean that someone could never be rehabilitated and make a fresh start which involved going into poltics or continuing in politics. This is why I thought that a signed statement apologising for past wrongdoings might be a more just approach.

As it happens, I cannot recall an elected politician accepting that past criminality was wrong.

Hotblack Desiato

Exactly. More shame on us for electing these crooks.

Edit: that was in response to Mr. Micro's post. I couldn't disagree with you more Jackie.

Mr.Micro

Jackie laughlin wrote: »

That would mean that someone could never be rehabilitated and make a fresh start which involved going into poltics or continuing in politics. This is why I thought that a signed statement apologising for past wrongdoings might be a more just approach.

As it happens, I cannot recall an elected politician accepting that past criminality was wrong.

With respect JL .I am not against people being re-habilitated and a fresh start ,but human nature is not like that ,we dont give each other a chance or will not deal with a professional person if he /she done us wrong.Power itself corrupts and many succumb to its allure so Politicians must be above reproach (not that that is ever going to happen)

Jackie laughlin

What exactly are you saying here? That anyone ever convicted of a crime be disbarred from running in any election? That anyone convicted of a crime, criticised by a tribunal, or losing a civil suit be disbarred rom running in any election?

The first possibility is clearcut but would leave some major chancers untouched.

Mr.Micro

Jackie laughlin wrote: »

What exactly are you saying here? That anyone ever convicted of a crime be disbarred from running in any election? That anyone convicted of a crime, criticised by a tribunal, or losing a civil suit be disbarred rom running in any election?

The first possibility is clearcut but would leave some major chancers untouched.

Its impossible to get the perfect person ( as we are human and open to tempation ) but at present there appears to be nothing bar bankruptcy( this does not include moral bankruptcy) to stop a candidate from running for the Dail .I dont have the answer alas, but why should tainted ,convicted or dubious Politicians be acceptable if we expect such high standards from all other professions?

Jackie laughlin

I tend to agree. There is nothing morally wrong in itself about going bankrupt yet a convict can run for the Dail and take a seat.

I'm worried about your "There's none of us perfect" line. Very few of us have committed crimes, been criticised by tribunals, advised tax evaders, kept company with people whose money travels in a suitcase, etc. Within all this there is also a "hierarchy of wrongdoing"; some offenders are much worse than others.