Garda seizure

Christomouse

Long story short, just got off the phone to customs. They handed over my package to the gards at dublin airport and I was given a number to ring to enquire. This ever happen to anyone before how should it be handled?

kdouglas

hmmmm... this is not a good sign, was talking to one of the contractors last night and they had some stuff seized aswell

from what i heard, the garda technical bureau/firearms people or whoever, said yea, they're perfectly legal, just show customs the relative legislation, went back to customs and showed them the legislation and they asked for a letter from a superintendent or a detective saying the package(s) could be released, but for some reason, the gardai arent willing to supply said letter

Edit:
oh, and regarding your own personal situation, ring the gardai who the package was handed over to and talk to them, have a copy of the cjb and firearms act handy (the whole thing, not just that one line that mentions 1 Joule)

Hivemind187

Christomouse wrote:

Long story short, just got off the phone to customs. They handed over my package to the gards at dublin airport and I was given a number to ring to enquire. This ever happen to anyone before how should it be handled?

???

Never heard of this happening before. However, your kit may have been sent for ballistics examination because it is over the 1joule limit. It may have been marked arseways and have been taken for holding by the customs agents. It may have improper import duty ascribed to it and have been impounded for that reason.

Best advice, contact the number you have been given and be polite, calm and considerate and it should be fine so long as the kit is kosher.

EDIT: Kdouglas can you drop me a line with more info on this please? Maybe get the contractor in question to contact me. I need more info. Thanks.

Mr. Presentable

Christomouse wrote:

Long story short, just got off the phone to customs. They handed over my package to the gards at dublin airport and I was given a number to ring to enquire. This ever happen to anyone before how should it be handled?

Be polite and calm, as advised. If there's nothing wrong it'll be OK. Out of curiosity, what was seized?

kdouglas

hivemind: there's not much more to say on it at the moment, that's all i know, but he did say he was going to post about it on here

Christomouse

Ok just off the phone. Gotta ring back tommorrow to talk to the chap that looks after it. All suggestions welcome. Anyone know the muzzle energy for a Bell M92 and a KART M14 socom off hand?

Hivemind187

kdouglas wrote:

hivemind: there's not much more to say on it at the moment, that's all i know, but he did say he was going to post about it on here

Cool. I shall keep an eye on it.

kdouglas

m92 is definitely not more than a joule, around .85 from what i remember

kart m14 im not sure about, but you really should be checking the power output before you order things

Christomouse

Hindsight's always 20:20. But I've checked it out now and it's all good in the hood.

kdouglas

true, wasn't intended to be offensive, just giving advice for anyone else that happens to read this thread

Dr_Pepper

Christomouse wrote:

Hindsight's always 20:20

Always!!!! Check what your buying for gods sake.
If you buy something over a joule then i have no sympathy for you.

Mr. Presentable

Yeah, should be no problem. Give a thought for the customs guy that found them though - he might not even be aware of airsoft, and they look dangerous!

sidneyreilly

If you havnt recieved a visit to your door then I wouldnt panic.

Spitfire666

the contractor in question had a 20kilo order and it was handled by either UPS or DHL. it was addressed to a private address and they looked inside, seen what was in it and called customs. customs looked at it and said he didnt know what they were and advised that the garda be called who then seized the gear. and now its a case of one person saying its okay just tell them he law and the other saying no, get it in writing from person A.


He probably wont post till the weekend as some scheming is afoot.

Dave!

Dr_Pepper wrote:

Always!!!! Check what your buying for gods sake.
If you buy something over a joule then i have no sympathy for you.

relaxo bud

Fallschirmjager

god i hate when i hear things like this...always gives me the creeps and just when i am wanting to order the m249..with a 1j spring i might add..

ambro25

Was that before or after that poor biker Guard got shot?

Not being facetious, but I'm wondering if Customs/Guards have taken it upon themselves to embark upon an "Irish VCRB crusade" of sorts... What with all of the "gun violence" in the media atm

Hivemind187

ambro25 wrote:

Was that before or after that poor biker Guard got shot?

Not being facetious, but I'm wondering if Customs/Guards have taken it upon themselves to embark upon an "Irish VCRB crusade" of sorts... What with all of the "gun violence" in the media atm

I doubt it. The gaurds themselves had a hand in the push for the 1 joule set up we have at the moment and to be honest, I doubt they are as concerned about us as they are about gangs with REAL firearms.

The problem for the guards is how to tell the difference and as such we shouldnt be putting them in a position where they have to make a judgement call.

The incident with the Airport folks is likely a case of misunderstanding, bad paperwork, poor training and erring on the side of caution.

Spetzcong

I think it's probably someone just getting confused as to what the letter of the law is. Airsoft is a very new sport in Ireland, nearly anyone I've talked to about it has been shocked and completely unaware that AEGs are now legal in Ireland. While you'd expect people in customs, who are more likely to be come across airsoft equipment in the course of their daily job, to be better versed in what is and isn't legal now, you really don't have any guarantees, and I'd say if they're in doubt themselves they'll always err on the side of caution.

Once the sport is more established I'd say we'll have less incidents like this, the efforts of us all as players and especially of organisations such as the IAA can help get us to a stage where we have more recognition and are less at risk from perfectly legal airsoft equipment being siezed, well so long as it is under 1j and really is perfectly legal.

CrazyRabbit

Spetzcong wrote:

I think it's probably someone just getting confused as to what the letter of the law is. Airsoft is a very new sport in Ireland, nearly anyone I've talked to about it has been shocked and completely unaware that AEGs are now legal in Ireland. While you'd expect people in customs, who are more likely to be come across airsoft equipment in the course of their daily job, to be better versed in what is and isn't legal now, you really don't have any guarantees, and I'd say if they're in doubt themselves they'll always err on the side of caution.

Once the sport is more established I'd say we'll have less incidents like this, the efforts of us all as players and especially of organisations such as the IAA can help get us to a stage where we have more recognition and are less at risk from perfectly legal airsoft equipment being siezed, well so long as it is under 1j and really is perfectly legal.

Customs have had over a year to learn about the change in the law. Same goes for the Gardai. I doubt this is a case of "Oh, we didn't know that these were now legal". Hundreds of other AEG's have been imported and passed through customs without issue.

There must be something unusual about this package or the packaging that caught their attention, but I'm not in any position to speculate.

gandalf

CrazyRabbit wrote:

Hundreds of other AEG's have been imported and passed through customs without issue.

I think that might be a very conservative estimate. I would reckon thousands at this stage!!!!

Dave!

And that's just the ones you imported ))))))

Lemming

CrazyRabbit wrote:

Customs have had over a year to learn about the change in the law. Same goes for the Gardai. I doubt this is a case of "Oh, we didn't know that these were now legal". Hundreds of other AEG's have been imported and passed through customs without issue.

There must be something unusual about this package or the packaging that caught their attention, but I'm not in any position to speculate.

TBH, I've got a friend who no matter how much I explain to him about the legalities of airsoft just cannot get his head around the fact that yes airsoft is legal, and no these are not firearms, despite how realistic they may look.

I'd imagine there are folks in customs who are the same, as in all walks of life.

Hivemind187

Lemming wrote:

TBH, I've got a friend who no matter how much I explain to him about the legalities of airsoft just cannot get his head around the fact that yes airsoft is legal, and no these are not firearms, despite how realistic they may look.

I'd imagine there are folks in customs who are the same, as in all walks of life.

All it takes is a newbie and a badly marked box and you have a problem.

We have all dealt with "the new guy" at work and more than one person will have a story about the office printer being accidentally shipped to Paraguay or an order for "Long Stands" because of inexperience. It happens.

With Airsoft we have the added problem of the accuracy and detail of the equipment we use, to the uninitiated it can look quite intimidating (as does martial arts, fencing and some medical equipment).

I once had a set of books stopped rom entering the country because an official at the other end objected to the content. A couple of phone calls and a little patience and it resolved itself.

Alvin T. Grey

Shame on them. Especially when everyone knows that Hemaphroditic midgits in leather Sadlery is Art

Hivemind187

Alvin T. Grey wrote:

Shame on them. Especially when everyone knows that Hemaphroditic midgits in leather Sadlery is Art

Oh if ONLY it was ... that stuff is worth a fortune if you can get it out of Hamburg.

... Not that I would know anything about it.

Boston

well all the stuff from WGC arrives with several copies of a covering letter indicating that the AEGs are .8joules or less. And I have to say from testing the guns are .8 joules or less.

Spetzcong

I'm awaiting a shippment of mid-cap mags and a drum-mag, I rang UPS and they said customs had taken my shipment to examine it because it was labelled "model/toy guns/parts", now obviously I know full well that there's nothing even vaguely resembling a gun in the shipment so it should be released by next week (annoying though because customs are defo gonna sting me for import duty now, and I don't get to play with my new mags on Saturday) but could this be a new push by customs to get slightly stricter on the importation of airsoft equipment?

Lemming

Spetzcong wrote:

I'm awaiting a shippment of mid-cap mags and a drum-mag, I rang UPS and they said customs had taken my shipment to examine it because it was labelled "model/toy guns/parts", now obviously I know full well that there's nothing even vaguely resembling a gun in the shipment so it should be released by next week (annoying though because customs are defo gonna sting me for import duty now, and I don't get to play with my new mags on Saturday) but could this be a new push by customs to get slightly stricter on the importation of airsoft equipment?

Could just be someone new who, like my aforementioned friend, cannot get their head around the fact that airsoft is completely legal and has a stereotypical "shure dey cud b used 4 a robbery!! U cant b doin dat!!!" attitude.

There's no particular reason for customs to be getting stricter on airsoft equipment really since the firearms legislation was only released last year, so any mandate to tighten it would take time to come through.

Spitfire666

CrazyRabbit wrote:

Customs have had over a year to learn about the change in the law. Same goes for the Gardai. I doubt this is a case of "Oh, we didn't know that these were now legal". Hundreds of other AEG's have been imported and passed through customs without issue.

There must be something unusual about this package or the packaging that caught their attention, but I'm not in any position to speculate.

Your wrong there, they actualy DIDNT know what they were, and i quote,
"Theres hundred of thousands of little white balls in it" (the package)

One of the problems is the fact that up to now all this stuff was subject to automatic destruction order and now they are legal but still getting confiscated by customs and shipping companies who hand them over to garai and the gardai have to investigate them.

Hivemind187

Spitfire666 wrote:

Your wrong there, they actualy DIDNT know what they were, and i quote,
"Theres hundred of thousands of little white balls in it" (the package)

One of the problems is the fact that up to now all this stuff was subject to automatic destruction order and now they are legal but still getting confiscated by customs and shipping companies who hand them over to garai and the gardai have to investigate them.

So what do you reccomend? More publicity? An appeal to the ministers for better training? Requesting clearer labelling of equipment sent by retailers?

ambro25

Spitfire666 wrote:

Your wrong there, they actualy DIDNT know what they were, and i quote, "Theres hundred of thousands of little white balls in it" (the package

Tell them it's for a "videogame den": the balls are for the adult-sized beanbags and the gun bits are for the "TV phasers"

Spitfire666

more publicity. as much as can be created. and at the end of the day, even bad publicity is still publicity.

More stuff like salute. and none of this hide away from the public attitude that has been rife on this forum in the past.

If an oppertunity presents itself, take it. dont fanny about.
Salute almost didnt happen and then it got forced back on track and it was great for us. and has given us contacts with re-enactors and event organisers aswell as vehicle enthusiasts who could come in handy.

Shiva

Spitfire666 wrote:

One of the problems is the fact that up to now all this stuff was subject to automatic destruction order and now they are legal but still getting confiscated by customs and shipping companies who hand them over to garai and the gardai have to investigate them.

Do you know offhand what powers Customs have, if any, to seize items which are fully legal ?

I'm thinking along the lines that if you're not making any headway with explaining that its legal, or as in the case above, they're looking for written confirmation from the Gardai that the Gardai aren't willing to provide, how do you proceed ?

Threatening legal action would be a last resort obviously, but would it be effective if you had no other option ? I know Customs have pretty far reaching and wide ranging powers, but surely they can't seize something indefinitely thats perfectly legal, and use their uncertainty as an excuse ?

EDIT: Just realised that might come across as asking fro legal advice - Don't put yourself out on a limb if you don't want to/can't answer

Hivemind187

Spitfire666 wrote:

more publicity. as much as can be created. and at the end of the day, even bad publicity is still publicity.

More stuff like salute. and none of this hide away from the public attitude that has been rife on this forum in the past.

If an oppertunity presents itself, take it. dont fanny about.
Salute almost didnt happen and then it got forced back on track and it was great for us. and has given us contacts with re-enactors and event organisers aswell as vehicle enthusiasts who could come in handy.

Hopefully we will be getting that publicity within the next few months but rather than going for the "any and all publicity" angle, which will lead to more rows like the indymedia debacle, positive but big publicity is the answer.

I mean if you try to do everything you'll end up doing nothing right?

Do you think their is a hope in hell of being given an official statement or letterfrom the Gardai in relation to this issue (and for that matter what they would like to see regarding the transport of kit from a to b etc)?

ambro25

***Not legal advice***

To my mind, it depends on what is referred to as a 'legal' airsoft device:

it's not Customs' job to investigate whether an airsoft device is legally a frearms or not (as in < or > or = 1J), it's Gardai's

it's not Gardai's job to investigate whether an airsoft device has legally entered the country (as in all fees and dues paid), it's Customs'

the way I see it, therefore, is that one looks after the money legal side (Customs for Excise & Duty Act or whatnot) and the other the firearm legal side (Gardai for Firearms Act).

What has to be investigated is this question of whether Customs can, in law, retain your property (once taxes are acquitted) if it is not *legally* on a list of banned/prohibited itms (RS stuff, class XYZ drugs etc.), so the legal validity of this "Gardai letter" condition.

Presumably, showing them the relevant section of the Firearms Act and establishing proof that the device shoots at or under 1J (bring/borrow a chrono) should be enough.

|I.R|PaddyPower

This sounds really bad but i just got my Thompson aeg and god im in love with it but a friend in Cork just phoned me to tell me that 2 hi-mags 1 m14 motor and a 9.4v battery was just stopped in customs and sent to the Garda
to be checked.
After calling customs they were not very helpfull and were in fact very stuffy about him asking questions as to where his order of parts where they finally gave him a number to the Garda in question and the matter is being looked at.

This does not strike me as normal.

ambro25

Shiva, own up - how many of those Customs boys have you greased, to help setup your airsoft empire in the Republic?

Gyle

Here is the story so far.
Customs seized a number of packages from UPS on Monday morning.
They handed them over to the Garda in dublin airport.
I have been speaking to the Garda in The Airport today and they are forwarding them to Ballistics in the Phoenix park for testing, anything that tests under 1 joule will be released. If your AEG tests over the 1 joule law The AEG may be decomissioned(crushed) and you will be contacted by the Garda.

Please remember when ordering note the spec of the AEG it should never exceed 328 feet per second or 100 meters per second when firing a 0.2g BB.
If the AEG is rated 320-340 fps it may well be tested over the law and the law will have been broken.:eek:

more to come watch this space!

kdouglas

something very strange about that indeed, mags motor and battery dont need to be tested or anything???

just out of curiousity, is there a common retailer that this stuff is being stopped from? maybe the origin address has been red flagged for some reason?

Hivemind187

kdouglas wrote:

something very strange about that indeed, mags motor and battery dont need to be tested or anything???

just out of curiousity, is there a common retailer that this stuff is being stopped from? maybe the origin address has been red flagged for some reason?

Thats a bloody good question.

CrazyRabbit

Hmm...seems that Custom's are getting much more strict and careful about the AEG's being imported.

Good, in that it prevents scumbags from importing AEG's (well) over the 1 joule limit.

Bad, in that it adds even further delay to the delivery of legal AEG's to law abiding players. At this point, it's gonna take 2 weeks to get AEG's delivered.

|I.R|PaddyPower

Just hope my M1A1 hi-cap mags get through I ordered them Thursday hopeing to get them for next week. I know the Thompson is not to high rate of fire but I was going to go to HRTA with the m14 aeg and the Tommie gun.But if the stop the what then?? Anyone got a spare hi-Caps for the tommie im a nubie.

Spetzcong

Well my stuff was coming from RSOV.

I was on the phone to customs in Dublin Airport about an hour ago and they said they didn't have any packages belonging to me. Then they said they'd check it out and ring me back and I've not heard from them since.

I might give UPS another go to try and see what the story is because mags and the likes wouldn't need to be tested (or should at lest test in or around the 0 joules mark )

I suppose Ballistics might want to check them to see if they're real mags or airsoft mags.

|I.R|PaddyPower

It might be the amount of equipment and aegs he gets from Rsov 3 people and himself all purchase together to save time and money on delivery charges but this time he only got the mags and batteries some bb's and his motor maybe its the ammount of equipment this month thats the problem???

|I.R|PaddyPower

P.S still trying to get him to join the forums and the others in cork.

Harekin

Next time just ship with DHL. They have their own customs people and Iv never had anything shipped by them in Customs for more that 2 hours.

Christomouse

My order was shipped Via UPS and was from RSOV aswell. That's a fair few from RSOV now. The GArd I was talkin to was dead sound about it aswell, he explained the whole thing without getting all fussed.

To be honest I think in some ways it's a good thing. It's being monitored by the gards now so all that's needed really is someone to leaze(SP?) between the gards at dublin airport and the Airsoft community. It will pevent things getting out of hand in the long run.

Spetzcong

I'm getting the impression that this is a UPS thing, I got in touch with the customs guy at Dublin airport and they were able to check and tell me that my package cleared without a hitch and was passed on to UPS again yesterday. Armed with this new information I got on to UPS again who admitted that it was in their depot since yesterday and they hadn't done anything with it today.

I guess either UPS have been freaking out about airsoft stuff and handing it over to customs, or customs have decided to pick on UPS to make sure all the stuff they're carrying meets the legal requirements for import to Ireland.

Either way it's nothing to get too concerned about provided what you've ordered is under 1j. It's just a slight annoyance. I'd have my stuff now if the UPS guy I talked to this morning had told me the truth about my package, instead of making out that customs were inspecting it. I could have gone out to the depot and picked the bloody thing up :mad:

defenderdude

I'm not qualified to say but...

could the "over zealous" developments be because of the legislation changes in the UK? Are carriers reacting to some memo from their hq's possibly?

just a thought, worth about 2cent :-)

A.

Fallschirmjager

UPS are the friggen pits. they are like GLS only slighly less crap. the amount of stuff i have ordered (non airsoft related i might add) that they have banged on customs costs that were way way out of order i have actually lost count. i refuse to ship with them any more.

it does have a bad smell about it. i was going to buy a sub 1j m249...dont think i will bother now...