Winning hearts and minds

Tea drinker

I was a bit confused about the whole winning hearts and minds thing, but now I understand better.

Here are 2 videos to help YOU understand. (you have to be over 18 to view one -youtube rules)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnyjH5wusqs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5z0NMKcVHHM

At this stage it looks like there should be a UN force to eject America and it's allies from the middle east altogether.

Fratton Fred

if it's over 18, then I'm not lookin at work!!

If I recall correctly, were there not some Irish soldiers court martialled for making videos and posting them on youtube. OK, what they did was a joke, but in the wrong hands the Irish could easily be accused of losing the hearts and minds war. Videos are a useful propaganda tool and I believe they should be viewed as such.

Tea drinker

Hi FF,
we discussed (teabreak talk with work pals) the recent video of the Irish soldiers going rat-tat-tat with a machine gun at the locals, and we came up with the possibilty you mentioned. This incident seems to be the exception rather than the rule as with coalition forces / agents. I do see it as less likely than with US forces, as the Irish army is a professional Army. I'm not saying that it is a superior fighting force, but you don't have people looking to get into college by joining the Army here. I think the age profile is quite high, so they would have better reasoning skills than young men. However, the worst problems seem to be with the officers, who have ordered the soldiers to shoot everyone nearby if they are fired upon. That position is indefensible in every sense, particularly when they shouldn't be there in the first place. I mean Fred, look at the number of friendly fire incidents on UK forces? It's a shocking turn out really.

I do agree that videos, and most new programmes are ripe for misinformation, and are frequently used for this in the western media. Heck the UN itself became a vessel for misinformation when they allowed Colin Powell to speak! Once bitten twice shy though...
And it's interesting that it's far more than youtube have the bad news stories now, it's everywhere in the mainstream media, Europe and US.

I still say that the coalition forces should be ejected, they are manufacturing a clash of civilisations, ensuring the danger of the citizens they are paid to protect.

Manic Moran

There's a backstory to the first one, they weren't unarmed civilians. I remember when it came out some time ago there was discussion on it on another site. I'll see if I can track it down.

NTM

Mick86

Tea drinker wrote:

At this stage it looks like there should be a UN force to eject America and it's allies from the middle east altogether.

Good idea. Except the US might veto such a resolution. Worth a try though.

Then you could try and form a coalition of countries that are willing to be bombed back to the stone age trying to eject America and it's allies from the middle east altogether.

Any takers?

Tea drinker

Mick86 wrote:

Good idea. Except the US might veto such a resolution. Worth a try though.

Then you could try and form a coalition of countries that are willing to be bombed back to the stone age trying to eject America and it's allies from the middle east altogether.

Any takers?

Some of the countries in the immediate region are pretty close to it! US has no ally in the region that could help without ensuring it's own destruction / distintegration. So you have 250,000 soldiers to feed, what do they eat when the supply lines are cut off?

Anyway a major conflict with US partners assures destruction of the troubled US economy, a variant on MAD.
We can assume the the war is being fought for ecomic / monetary reasons. It makes no sense for US to start a conflict with, or to isolate herself from it's traditional allies.

Obviously in the near future there will be no such conflict, however, US could at least risk some form of sanction in the future. I have come across many nice yanks and have the height of respect for them but that doesn't go as far as excusing the inexcusable. It's a sea change for us to look at rapping US knuckles but it needs to be done at this stage.

US done a very good job deceiving it's (so called allies) in the UN. This (along with 9/11 sentiment) ensured that a strong block of opposition never formed against US actions in the region at a crucial time.
I think it's a lesson Europe will learn from.

Anyway, what sort of ally would we be to US if we didn't protect them from themselves? They now have a far worse economy than they had before the war, thousands dead, families broken up, reputation of US in tatters. And that's just the tragedy in US. How much worse is it for Iraq?
But some individuals and corporates did very well... so it's all ok then.
These profits seem to be the only tangible achievement.

Mick86

Tea drinker wrote:

Some of the countries in the immediate region are pretty close to it! US has no ally in the region that could help without ensuring it's own destruction / distintegration. So you have 250,000 soldiers to feed, what do they eat when the supply lines are cut off?

Well that's not quite the same thing as a UN force taking on the US now is it?

About the only ME Countries likely to attempt the task are Iran and Syria. George Bush probably prays nightly for them to give him the excuse he needs to attack them.

As for the rest of the world we need teh US far more than the US needs us. This has been debated elsewhere on this forum so I suggest you go and read it there.

Tea drinker

Well I certainly hope he doesn't attack them, as you may see the disintegration of rule in Saudi, the Israeli's being poked into action, and then it's a free for all. Us military assets in the region would be be expendable in this case - their only protection being nukes.
I'm not saying Georgie doesn't have the nuts to start - I'm saying that's all he has.

My point is if we were to judge and act like the US, then we would be cluster bombing civilian areas in US.
Rather than suggesting something as ridiculous (and inhuman) as that we should take a firmer stance against the ruling parties in US.
The US is a huge and damaging power in the UN. It is worth exploring how a permanent member could take a break, or face trade sanctions from EU. We (EU - not Ireland solo) need US, but not to the extent that is commonly bandied about. US corporates are heavily dependant on EU, and their financials are utterly dependant on a liquid and tradeable currency.
I think the people in the US that are our friends, relatives, open minded etc might wake up to the malignancy of some US actions.

While everyone is watching Burma, the people in the middle east are burning.

It is strange how we suck up even when staring in the face of warcrimes and human suffering.
Party on